MG-Cars.net

Welcome to our resource for MG Car Information.

Recommendations

Parts

MG parts spares and accessories are available for MG T Series (TA, MG TB, MG TC, MG TD, MG TF), Magnette, MGA, Twin cam, MGB, MGBGT, MGC, MGC GT, MG Midget, Sprite and other MG models from British car spares company LBCarCo.

MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Elec Fans

Just about to start the plumbing side of things and want to find out peoples experience with electric fans.

I have a Serck alloy rad and the fins are rather densely packed which means that I think that I will struggle to get the 'through the rad' fittings of a Kenlowe to fit.

I've seen a couple of Revotech fans which look like they have a different mounting system but they are seriously not cheap!

So, can anyone with an electric fan tell me if there are lugs that you can mount a bracket to or is there something that I am missing?

I'm assuming that a blower rather than a sucker is needed....

Ta!
Toby Anscombe

Toby my MGB fan blows through from the front bracket inside the nose cone area

no major issues to report!

Unless I forget to switch the bugger on...




[n.b. now tidied up, painted and generally poofed about with behind the grille]


Bill sdgpm

Toby,
For various laminar flow, high-pressure side, etc. reasons, it is best if the fan is behind the radiator, but it will work in either location. With an A-Series Spridget with crossflow radiator, the fan needs to be VERY thin or else use the shroud from a 1500 to gain another inch or so; lower hose will need to be longer to accomodate... I don't think Daniel makes one like that. With the downflow radiator, it is not too difficult to put a fan behind the radiator... lots of room.

Please make sure your fan is turning the right direction...

I did not find any mounting lugs and wound up using the traditional nylon sprues through the radiator matrix. Makes me cringe, but it works.

PO mounted the fan on the Bugeye (which he had converted to crossflow for some reason) in front. Works fine, but I have to get around to sorting the electrical side which has a thermostat which only turns the fan on at temp if the ignition is off... go figure. Glad he mounted a bypass switch!
David "no mechanical fans in my fleet" Lieb
David Lieb

Toby,
I have a Kenlowe for the midget and it mounts on a simple, adjustable light alloy tubular frame - no contact with the rad required.
See http://www.kenlowe.com/

No doubt a man of your abilities could knock something similar up after a quick trip to the scrappies - I was lazy (though my Kenlowe was an eBay "unfinished project" bargain)
Steve Clark

So..

Suck, don't blow and its a bit tight behind...


sounds like a film that Arie would like ;-)

Toby Anscombe

Well, if you put it that way... How can we argue?

Think about the electric fan this way:

1. Above 35MPH or so, the fan should not be kicking in unless you are in the Outback or Death Valley.

2. In front of the radiator, the fan is blocking off part of the matrix and on the high-pressure side at that. If the fan is on, it blocks less, but, depending on the design of the fan, it is still blocking some. If the fan is off, the blades will "windmill" (no, Arie, it has nothing to do with Holland), screwing up air-flow.

3. Behind the radiator, the fan is on the low-pressure side and does not affect the flow of air through the radiator when it is not running. It will "windmill" less and will not affect the air-flow through the matrix.

4. My friends who understand laminar flow and all that good stuff assure me that the pulling fan gives you a better flow of air across more of the matrix. I believe them.

David "waiting for the movie" Lieb
David Lieb

Because of clearance issues I had to mount my fan in front of the radiator. I used a Bosch unit from a BMW I found at the breakers and built a mounting bracket for it from strap steel. It bolts on to the same mounts as the radiator. Cools fine at low speeds and doesn't even switch on on the road. I must have gotten lucky about the blade design as David said, the fan was mounted as a pusher on the Bimmer although I didn't think of that at the time.
Bill Young

I suspect I am like both Bills and can not afford to throw money at an issue to solve it.

Therefore I found a common radiator that would fit in the hole (peugeot) and then found a fan with cowling in scrapyard. To this fan I fibreglassed some brackets that mounted it to the edges of the radiator. I removed myoriginal fan and mounted the electric jobbie to the engine side of the radiator.

You can just see the top brackets in this photo




Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

here is my radiator and ally cowling during trial fitting


Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

By George, I think there IS a fan in there somewhere ;-)
David "looking for the circles and arrows and the paragraph on the back" Lieb
David Lieb

Use the Kenlowe General adjustable bars rather than through the rad fixings.

Or, 'simply' get some flat alloy bar drill holes to locate the Kenlowe at one end and weld the other ends to the rad. This is something I'll do one day... general adjustable bars have worked for many years now.
Daniel Thirteen-Twelve

I have a Maxlite fan hanging in the garage. It's a little guy. 10" 850cfm, puller I think. Is it possible to ditch the stock engine fan in favor of this. I'd guess to gain a bit of HP? BTW '63 with a 1098. It has an oil cooler blocking the front of the rad as it is.
J Van Dyke

Good point, Daniel. I forgot that the last time I put my fan onto my Midget, I was understandably reluctant to put sprues through a heinously expensive new matrix, so I took a retired street sign and fabbed up some mounts for it.
David "it can be handy knowing where the Village throws away old aluminum signage..." Lieb
David Lieb

Ah David"Especially when one of them is a handily Octagonal Stop sign" Leib, yes we know what you mean!
Bill sdgpm

On my 1500, which -knock wood - has not had overheating problems, I added a 10" pusher fan from a Toyota Corolla in front of the radiator this spring when I had the radiator boiled out and a few leaks soldered. I also replaced the viscous fan clutch with a good used one. I have not yet installed a thermostatic control for the electric fan. The fan is controlled by a switch through a relay. Should help cool things off after shutdown and maybe help in traffic.

I agree with David that puller is better than pusher, but I didn't want to give up my mechanical fan. I've heard of number of problems with fuel boiling in carb bowls in traffic without a fan running all the time.

Lee
Lee Fox

O Toby, you know me so well! :)
Arie de Best

Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo, England, do you recall which model / year Peugeot your rad was sourced from?

Are the outlet in the right place?

Any further pictures would be great.

Thanks

Paul
Paul Clark

3 years of Mechanical Engineering and Fluid mechanics and I still dont really accept the pull is better than push for air flow reasons.

However you can almost certainly fit a bigger fan behind as the standard cowl limits the space in front considerably.

Mine is a 9" Pusher by Spal. 2 Strips brazed to the front of the rad with studs on. Fan mounts to the studs. No Pics unfortunately. I'd say anyting above 15mph and the fan is redundant. Mine only ever kicks in when stationary or crawling.
Dean Smith ('73 RWA)

"no major issues to report!

Unless I forget to switch the bugger on..."

at speed I still (as Dean!) do not see any problems from fitting in the front of the rad

The nose cone provides a natural airbox to ram air into when in motion, air flows around the 2½" motor body quite happily, speeding up if I remember principles of flight and dynamics correctly to pass the obstruction then returning easily to its natural flow again

AND there is enough space in front for it and there is very little space behind the rad. For me it was no contest, 'cos as Bob has correctly pointed out I will not spend £40/50/60 or whatever for a device I can replicate from a scrapyard.

All a matter of personal preferences.

All I need to do is decide what temperature I wish to turn it on, re-jig the wiring again and settle down safely driving about...

Any suggestions for a switch on temperature setting? The switch is in the radiator (this one was allowing boiling over and still not switching, so I just leave it in to block up t'ole) and am back on "manual-easy-to-forget" mode.



Bill sdgpm

Pardon my ignorance but all (most) of you with electric fans have removed the motor fan?
J Van Dyke

I certainly have J
Bill sdgpm

Jeff,
Yes, both of my running Spridgets are electric fan only. One of the justifications for installing an electric fan is that the mechanical fan is an atrocious application. Any time you are over about 35mph or so (dependent on weather, of course, as well as engine tune, etc), there is enough airflow through your radiator that no fan is necessary. That is precisely when a mechanical fan is sapping up the most HP from the engine. The faster the engine is running, the more fan load. At idle, when sitting in traffic, is when you really NEED the fan, but that is when it is moving the least air.

Electric fans, OTOH, can be setup so that they only turn on when the wayter in the radiator is hotter than the thermostat opening temperature, so it only turns on when the engine is about to get into "heat soak" territory. At no time does it eat engine hp except when the alternator is pulling extras amps to run it and that is seldom going to be a time when you are seeking that last little pony.

I understand that 1500s frequently benefit from having both.

Bob,
Proper shrouding of the fan is a factor as well. If the "puller" is not sucking the air through the radiator, the "pusher" can be better.
David "keeping my cool" Lieb
David Lieb

My switch is 92 on and 87 off - and its too high. When I;ve got the time I'll find a 87/82 in the same format
Dean Smith ('73 RWA)

My fan comes on at 104C and goes off at 96C... temp measured in the 2ndary (heater) loop...

A
Anthony Cutler

Dean,
Where is the sensor for your switch located? My feeling is that the thermostat in the water outlet should control the engine temperature by regulating the flow of cooler water from the radiator as long as the system stays out of "heat soak", so I am monitoring the temperature of the water in the upper left quadrant of the radiator (the corner the water from the engine is dumping into) and engaging the fan when this is a bit above the temperature at which the thermostat actuates. I spent the extra money for the adjustable temperature switch.
David "works well for me..." Lieb
David Lieb

I've been here once with a kit car and it's a big problem unless you have an adjustable switch. The location of the sensor, the efficiency of the radiator (with and without fan assistance), and the lengths and routing of the pipes all play a factor in determining what settings the fan needs to be controlled to. Some manufacturers use cyl head temp, others in the thermostat housing, some in a hose, and some in the radiator (top, middle or bottom). There's no right or wrong, but the settings must match the system, otherwise you'll have it coming on when driving along, or not going off when stationary, or any combinations of those two.

My advise - get an adjustable switch, or get used to making use of a manual override.

Ant
Ant Allen

why in the hell do all of you start messing with a fool proof concept!

I have had a electric fan on my mini to replace the normal one.
you do not feel the power diffrence it realy is not that mutch.
And as an added bonus you create a MORE unreliable solution!

a good cooling system with the normal fan (or a better late plastic one) can cope with almost all european tempratures!

only after 2 hours of trafic jam around Paris last jear (in 30C )it heated up
All it needed was 0.5L water and 20minutes of cooling down.

a failing electric fan can cause severe damage as you all must realize.
a mechanical fan can not fail!

Do not go around and make british cars more unreliable they do not need it!

if you must fit an electric fan in conjuction with the std one for those jams on hot days.
otherwise get you cooling system up to scratch!
Onno Könemann

there is no reason for an electric system to be unreliable.

Did you read Ant's thread on his mechanical fan...It was certainly faling ;-)

My sensor is in the top hose between thermostat housing and rad. I used the specs from the later Rover minis that had electric fans for the switch. On a normal CNH temp gauge it comes on about 3/4 - I'd prefer it to come on slightly lower.
Dean Smith ('73 RWA)

Interesting stuff. I'm surprised to learn the mech. engine fan is essentially useless at speed. I have a Flexlite with an adjustable temp sensor hanging on the wall. 10" 850cfm I think it's reversible to push or pull. I thought it would be too small and weak to replace the mech one but apparently not, if it's only really needed at idle.
I may just go for it then. Switch on dash to enable it, via a relay, temp sensing if adjusted right should be forget about it after, maybe unswitched so it can cool after the engine is shut down, or is that silly to try and cool the coolant when it isn't flowing anymore anyway?
I still have the original generator though, not much amperage to spare I wouldn't think, is that a concern? Is an upgrade to an alternator a must or not really?
J Van Dyke

Onno,
Unfortunately, not all of us have "european temperatures". A properly installed electric fan is reliable. Mechanical fans DO fail (ask the 1500 guys). Mechanical fans can fail AND destroy your radiator. As I stated above, the application simply makes no sense for a mechanical fan that does the most work when needed least and the least work when needed most. I sat in a traffic jam for 3 hours in 40+ degees C with a virtually standard Midget complete with original mechanical fan.

I took a trip to the western USA a number of years ago in a 1989 Oldsmobile Cutlass Cruiser SL station wagon with the 3.8L transverse V6 engine. The electric fan failed the first day of the trip. I replaced it when I got home two weeks and about 4000 miles later. Yes, I kept a close eye on the temperature gauge and adjusted my driving accordingly. Yes, it got a bit warm in the car using the heater in the middle of summer. No, there was no harm done to the engine.
David "I will stick with my electrics, thank you" Lieb
David Lieb

Onno, for some of us that have installed different engines there's no room for an engine driven fan, so we have to use an electric. Most of the aftermarket brands like Kenlowe are high quality units designed for years of service as are the electric units installed by various OEMs. I chose a Bosch unit because I reasoned that if it was good enough to meet the warranty requirements of BMW then it should last well in my Midget and it has.
As far as temp sensor placement. My theory is to monitor the coolant temperature at the most critical point, in the engine if possible and control the fan from there. Many manufacturers which use electric fans mount the sensors in the engine. I just used a GM sensor of the desired temp and mounted it in an unused port in the cooling jacket. On my current project I couldn't find a port in the head so I made up a modified thermostat housing which mounts both the fan temp switch and the sensor bulb for the dual gauge.


Bill Young

Paul {Clarky :-)} hope that is not offensive Paul...

I can not exactly remember what car the rad is designed for maybe a pug 60 something or other. Seem to remeber it was a 1.9 litre something..

However I can tell you how I chose it. Armed with the ideal dimensions I went down my local radiator specialist and he had a book with evey radiator design in it so spent a couple of hours finding a suitable one to buy.

You will notice this radiator does not have pressure cap so I have fitted my Midget expansion tank to it utilising the small pipe connection of the METRO thermostat housing.

Also I made an alloy cowling to mount the rad and fitted it to the Midget 2 uprights

Here are a couple of pics.


Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Second picture

Regarding an electric fan I think it is so simple with a modified car why not. As Dean rightly says above 15MPH the fan does NOTHING so why have a fan spinning yet not doing anything.

J Van Dyke why are you surprised? obviously you have been listening to urban myths and ignoring those who tell it how it is. be selective about whose advice you take.


Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

If I'me not mistaken, what onno means with an mechanical fan is a solid plastic 1275 item.
The 1500 has a viscous drive I red in one of the posts, That could break up leaving the fan inoperative.

On my MG1300 I had metal fan with pivoting blades. The blade angle got smaller at higher rpm, thus making it replace less air. worked fine, made a lot of noise. Still have it lying around I think. mmmmmmmhh, makes me think.........

Alex"or is the rotation wrong"Matla
Alex G Matla

Even with a solid plastic 1275 fan things can go wrong. If you were to drive the Missouri Endurance Rallye and need to ford (no endorsement intended) a waterbed that was a bit too deep (ISTR seeing some Yorkshire Spridgets behaving similarly) so that the bottom of the blade hit the water, you could find out what lovely radiator-coring devices a plastic fan transforms into under those circumstances. Even the metal blades like the old Morris Oxfords used to sport have been known to break when they hit water. In my youth, when we would approach water across the dirt road, it was my mother's job to get out and wade in to see whether the water was deep enough to warrant removing the fan-belt before crossing.
David "those roads are probably asphault now..." Lieb
David Lieb

I removed the mechanical fan & fitted a Metro electric fan as a pusher, used the Metro radiator elctric thermostat in a DIY top hose adapter & wired into to a manual switch as well.
Mounted the fan on two ali DIY brackets which span the front of the radiator cowl, so it can be removed as one unit.
Works well for me & the manual switch allows me to turn the fan on in slow moving traffic before the engine gets hot.
Total cost 15 pounds :-)
Brad (Sprite IV 1380)

> Did you read Ant's thread on his mechanical fan...It was certainly faling ;-)

That's not fair though. Mine turned out to be completely the wrong fan installed. Fitting the wrong parts always risks it not working!

Ant
Ant Allen

Ant, in short: it failed! ;)
Arie de Best

I hope you're jesting. Fitting the wrong components doesn't mean those components have failed. The fan wasn't appropriate to the car it was fitted to, that's irrelavent to the topic here. The discussion here is whether electric fans are "better" (more reliable, of benefit, worth fitting) than their mechanical equivalents.
Ant Allen

Well, the fan I thought was "small" is too big to fit between the rad's top tank and rack (8.5"). I'll have to back burner this, must remember the 11th commandment: "you shall start no unnecessary projects during driving season".
J Van Dyke

I fit a 10" fan behind my down flow radiator. It is a slim design that squeezes behind the steering rack. However the fan housing did require a bit of trimming.

Works well, and I'm using a temp sensor in the radiator. port. Engine temperature stays normal in all types of driving and the fan does not run when the car at speed.
Trevor Jessie

Ant - the smiley was to indicate the comment from me about your fan was indeed slightly tongue in cheek.

I've never argued the standard system isnt up to the job on a standard car - but even that can causes issues once messed around with. So the assertion that electric ones are unreliable is imho false. I would say "the cooling system can be unreliable if messed around with". Its a risk I accepted for myself when I started to mess around with mine :-)
Dean Smith ('73 RWA)

Trevor, you got it between the rack and the rad (in front of the rack)? I didn't have enough clearance to get it down in there. Oh well, I can always spend a buck or two on a fan that fits......I guess.
J Van Dyke

Yup, but I had to trim off some of the plastic housing. The blades clear with no problems.
Trevor Jessie

Cheers Robert (Bob), been called much worse...

I've been taking a similar approch but using e*ay.

Considering using a Fiesta mk 3 rad for my K-series but early days.
Paul Clark

Paul
It is worth remembering that nowadays it is easy to get silicon hoses made up to be different bends and different sizes, reducers. Meaning plumbing is no longer a major headache.
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Robert, funny i read this now as i was on the phone just 10min. ago with the one of the best race&Rally compagny in Holland from whom i ordered a special hose and they told me they have stopped doing buisness with Samco because they are so unreliable when it comes to delivery(apperently this is normal for many in the brittish carparts-trade???)

What compagny do special hoses and do normal timescale delivery?
Hose compagnies enough but please the reliable ones.
Who did you use for your Turbo stuff?


Arie de Best

Is there any major benefitin noise reduction (when the electric fan is off) at tickover and low driving speeds, with the mechaniucal fan removed?
Garyfrog

yes, the mechanical driven fan makes a hell of a noise
Will Munns

I guess I can get my Flex-a-lite 50 in there. I shaved the back side of guard off so it could slip in front of the rack, and the front of the guard on top where the bulge of the top tank was pushing it out. It sits on a bit of an angle and doesn't sit flush with the rad, that is it is not tight against it, stands off a good inch on the top, which probably hurts efficiency. I think I'll rig it all up and test it, easily reversible. Still wonder if I've got enough juice to power it. It draws 7 amps I believe. At night with lights on and stereo (albeit a puny one). Might be pushing it sitting for a while at a long light on a hot night?
J Van Dyke

Here Is what ""Frank Clarici "", wrote in an article about a more efficient radiator....intresting read

Prop


http://www.spritespot.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=113
Prop

I want to high jack this thread for just a moment and go a differant direction. but still on topic for the most part


I got a 1500 radator cowling so I could "stack" some radiators togather and still have clearance with the mechanical fan....

on the front will be the oil cooler, and a (radiator/heat exchanger) for the electric air-conditioner..... Air conditioner will not run off the engine...(solar powered...well still trying to make that work, getting closer)

on the back will be the the water radiator...

Am I going to have problems with that set up, will I need to make a shroud .....will air make it thur a double stack of radiators and work okay....Im thinking of an angle job for the front( further out on the outersides closer togather in the center...like a cattle schut, or a funnel


I saw in jegs online that they make a fuel radiator....is that a good idea...certianly help on those hot days that even the heatsheld wasnt even up to...Ive been there. ask david.



Prop
Prop

Of coarse there is an easy way to drop 10-15 degrees without any mod work

Mix your coolant 30/70-water, after all its called Anti-freeze, Not Anti-Heat!!! plus a little water wetter, and there you go.

Think about it, how often does the overnight temps get down to -66 degrees fahrenheit in July and August


Prop
Prop

We are all tallking about the fan's ability to keep the water temperature within bounds.

In the case of the 1500s the problem is not with excessive water temperature but with the build up of heat in the engine compartment leading to vapourization of the fuel. I have tried electric fans, but have reverted to the engine driven one because it is running all the time irrespective of the water temperature and introduces that much needed airflow under the bonnet.

Probably not a problem with the 'A' series.

In my case high under-bonnet temperatures are probably made worse by the thick layer of sound-deadening material the PO has stuck to the underside of the bonnet.

Dave
Penwithian

Whether you are talking about the fan's ability to keep water temperature within bounds

OR


the fans ability to introduce airflow under the bonnet (eg through the engine bay.

The fan isn't doing either at around the 15mph Bob mentioned earlier.

What's more if you more more air moved through the engine bay it's not the fan or airflow at any kind of speed that will do this, rather some kind of vent in the front wings to let air out.
Daniel Thirteen-Twelve

Like these

:-)

where's he gone lately?


Bill sdgpm

Wondering how to wire mine up. All the diagrams I'm finding for the temp controller indicate power to C and fan's + hooked up to terminal 1. My controller has one terminal spade on one end labled +, and a double spade on the other, might be a - there, hard to tell.
This rig was in a car I bought and crashed, it worked in that car but I didn't hook it up, just took it out.
Played a bit with it last night but I don't "get it".
I tried hooking 12v to the + and putting heat on the probe to see if 12v showed up on the other two spades, but it wasn't grounded.....thoughts welcomed.


J Van Dyke

I meant power to terminal 2 and fan hooked up to C, not that it means anything to my controller. FWIW this is a Flex-a-lite fan and the optional manual switch "was" in the mix at some point. I think, given heat to the probe, it closes the circuit but, well I don't know.
J Van Dyke

>>> Even the metal blades like the old Morris Oxfords used to sport have been known to break when they hit water. <<<

Thank goodness electric fans aren't affected by water!

;-)

(Back under my log)

-:G:-
Gryf Ketcherside

Gryf,
I never stated that electric fans would NOT succumb, merely that mechanical fans are NOT bulletproof. Read about that particular failure in the new Peter Egan book "On the Road" (or something like that). Got that one yet, or should I pass my copy along to you?

Jeff,
I would be inclined to suspect (note all the tentative language, please) that the + would equate to the C in the diagram and the double connector was there to simplify connecting the optional over-ride switch into the circuit. Or not. Presumably grounding through the mount.

I am currently in the midst of re-wiring the fan on my Bugeye. The PO used a lot of creativity, but somehow the only way the temerature sensor would activate the fan was if you turned the engine off. Huh? Good thing he had an over-ride switch on it that DID work. I ripped all the wiring out last night, moved the relay under the bonnet, got most of it set up again, but decided to liberate some spare wire from work (left over from an NEC microwave WAN project) for the switched supply. Tonight we shall see.
David "must be warming up again" Lieb
David Lieb

I don't know. There must be a "hot in" and a "hot out", the sensor completes the circuit, assuming the switch is truly optional (on my sensor too?) There is no continuity between the + and the other two (which are connected to each other). I guess I'll just have to experiment and see what happens. Hook it up with my best guess and heat the sensor with a heat gun or something and see if it kicks in. I was hoping it works so well I don't need a manual over ride switch.....worst case scenario, I need to buy a new sensor for $25.
J Van Dyke

FWIW this looks a lot like mine, but the model changed while hte part number didn't, 31147 brings up different looking controllers at Jegs and such. Maybe I can call Flex-a-lite and get some help.


J Van Dyke

This thread was discussed between 11/05/2009 and 20/05/2009

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

This thread is from the archive. The Live MG Midget and Sprite Technical BBS is active now.