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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Front spring length and strength

Well gent's, here comes the next question the the knowledge base.
As far as I know the original spring free length for the 1275 was 10", right and the strength originally 275 lbs, right?
Today I started dismantling the front suspension. The free springs are 9 1/4", but what the strength is, I dont know off course. But I wonder if they are coded, because there are some yellow paint on both of the springs.
Does anybody know if this is in fact a code and if yes, what strenght does yellow represent?
Thanks
Jan


Jan Kruber

Jan,
I don't know that the yellow paint has any significance to factory springs but I might be wrong.

There were from the factory two spring lengths for the 1275, early cars at 9.59" and late (from GAN-5 123837 onward) at 9.85", both 271 lb.

The usual springs you get today, CHA 129, are claimed 9.85” free length, 271 lb.

(info from Archive search on this forum)
Nigel Atkins

Nigel
....which means that my 9 1/2" springs are in fact shorter than the original. I'm "googling" as a mad to find out which springs they are, otherwise I will have to buy some new, I want to know the rate of the springs in my car. I think that I at least need the 340 lbs or perhaps even the 400 lbs springs.
If I'm wrong I'm sure someone here will correct me :-)
Jan Kruber

Jan,
springs won't be exact sizes even when you buy two they may vary a bit with each other.

Your springs could be old so have sunk a bit.

You don't need 340 or 400 necessarily but you may want them, what are you trying to achieve?

As a total generalisation and not relating to other matters, lower front springs can help sharpen front handling

Personally I have -
"9.5" freelength 360lb rate. Retains standard ride height to overcome sleeping policemen, rough surface autotests/auto-solo's etc, whilst reducing body roll/ brake dive. 27.50 each" from Magic midget, Kim Dear is highly recommended by me and others here.

Kim does a range of springs (and other items) - http://www.magicmidget.co.uk/suspension.htm

I'm sure someone on here will know how to find out what spring rate you have, or it might have already been covered in the Archives but sorry I know/remember neither.
Nigel Atkins

Jan -do you have access to a press
William Revit

William,
No, I haven't got a press, but you gave me an idea!
I have a column drill, so I smuggled my wife's bathroom scales out in my workshop and made me a primitive set up, I have attached a photo.
I tried to calibrate to zero and pressed the spring several times one inch down. Each time I ended up in between 212 and 215lb. I know it's not a scientific measurement, but it gives me a clue, that I'm not even near the lowest rate, 271lb.
Jan Kruber

Oh, and here's the photo William


Jan Kruber

Jan,

You might want to look online for a spring rate calculator and try to calculate the rate. You'll need information the the OD, wire diameter, number of coils, length, and it should be able to work out the rate.
David Billington

Nigel,
I just want to make the car behave just a little civilized, when taking a brisk spin on the small country roads. I don't believe I ever will take the car to the tracks.
Before I got to know this forum, I have used the American
MG Experience. I thought the car was far too soft rear, but learned that it has to be soft. So I guess the rear is fairly okay. I too learned, that my car was missing the front anti roll bar, so I bought a 5/8" bar kit this autum. I did help, but it can be better. If my measurements are okay, as I mention above in my reply to William, my front springs are way too soft. I'm convinced, that getting some with a tighter rate would contribute in getting the front end right, thats what I read on the great www, at least.
Apart from that, I have just started dismantling all the front suspension to inspect and repair as nescessary.
I made the whole rear last winther, axle, bearings, oil seals, springs and dampers, whatever.
I fitted new (rebuild) dampers at front too last winther.
Jan Kruber

Jan,
I'm no expert in anything including suspension but there are some very knowledgeable people on here that can cover very technical matters with suspension.

This is my very non-technical basic take on it - yeap fitting ARB is the first and most effective move, subject to the rest being in good working order of course.

The springs are just part of the set up and equation and they need to balance in with the rest of the front suspension and front to balance with rear.

The cars were designed to be soft compared to modern sports cars.

The front suspension also includes the bushes and tyres so they're part of the equation and balance, your dampers hopefully are now dealt with.

Lowering the car and having uprated springs will sharpen the handling but possibly not so much fun on rougher roads (surface and potholes).

I think a good compromise are Kim Dear's 9.5" freelength 360lb rate (proper metal) springs and he's very good to deal with - I've had 1" lower 340lbs and standard height 400lbs silicon chrome springs from two others suppliers that weren't good to deal with.

With your standard ARB and dampers Kim Dear's 9.5" freelength 360lb springs would probably go well but Kim would be the one to advise you on this not me.
Nigel Atkins

Today, raining, dark and cold, a good excuse for going in the "cave" and dismantle the front suspension.
Having done that completely on the left hand side, revealed very, very worn components. I think it's obvious why the car behaved "exciting", dont you think?
The wishbone bushes have had it, the stub axle to wishbone connection has really much slack. There is slack too in the left hand side steering rack.
So I'm on the google again, because I can not separate the wishbone from the stub axle, probably have to buy wishbones and stubaxles.....
And the left hand side probably looks the same.
Jan Kruber

Jan,
always allow for the acceptable tolerance of yesteryear components and their fitting and interaction.

Bushes are the often forgotten part of suspension.

But the lack of greasing the front suspension points regularly can give lead to problems.

Slack in steering rack doesn't sound good unless you just mean the track rod ends(?).

Be careful about buying newly made parts as they're not always of the best quality. Have a look in the Archives here for info of how to get wishbone and stub axle apart. With many parts, but not all, the liberal and patient (wait overnight) use of a good quality penetrating/releasing fluid like Plus Gas (not WD40) will help.
Nigel Atkins

Hi Jan

Loads in the archives and online about getting wishbones separate from kingpins. They can be a proper challenge.

Springs - I run a K series so the front is lighter; I've had a lot of success with the 340lb "1 inch lower" springs that Nigel mentioned. These measure 8.5 inches long and put my K at a sensible height.

I am now on 400lb 8.5 inch springs. These are quite hard for road use. I tried a set of 400lb 8 inch ones, these are low (very low, too low really) and I ended up driving about on the bumpstops most of the time.

For a standard-ish iron blocked car then I'd go with Nigel's suggestion and wholeheartedly recommend Magic Midget.

Rob Armstrong

Jan
You read my mind
The drill press is good
It doesn't have to be the latast, expensive spring press to get a good result
Only thing I would suggest is to squeeze the spring up a little bit like 1/4"-1/2" to start as the first bit is just the end coils finding their place--Read the scale at that and then another 1" exactly then read the scale again--the difference in the two readings is your spring rate -lbs/in.
If you can't get an inch out of it go for half and double your result
Cheers
willy
I'll be interested to see if you get a different result, but they sound fairly soft so far
William Revit

Good luck with the kingpin/wishbone adventure, Jan. That job, including re-assembly, is like entering another world, where failure awaits those who do not give themselves up to it totally. Do not try to listen to music while you work it all out.
Nick and Cherry Scoop

Thank you! I allways listen to some rockn' roll when working in the workshop, so maybe it isn't a job for me to do.
And it is terrible worn and impossible for me to dismantle anyway. I allso read on the www, that if so worn out, the lower wishbone probably is ruined too.
So I will cut down on the expences of this years Christmas gift for my wife :-) and buy some new wishbones and rebuild stub axle assembly's at Moss, they give 10% discount until dec 12.
Jan Kruber

Good decision, Jan. Probably. The threads in the wishbone are likely to be more or less gone. In fact, some of the reconditioned ones have almost no threads!
Nick and Cherry Scoop

Jan,
I'd look up recent threads on wishbones in the Archives as not all newly made ones seemed that well made, as with a lot of parts for our cars fitting newly made parts can introduce their own problems.
Nigel Atkins

Nigel, where do I buy some lasting wishbone then ?
Jan Kruber

Sorry Jan I've no idea, they might all be good now from any supplier or some might still have poor quality stock or some or all have stock that's OK rather than good.

If you can find certain NOS/unused second hand such as possibly Barry King wishbones they could be good - if you find a supply let me know and I'll buy a couple for stock as I never got around to it before.
Nigel Atkins

Kim dear of Magic Midget recomended 9" / 360lb springs which are now ordered together with a braided brake hose kit.
New lower wishbones and rebuild stub axles and a polybush kit and a lot of other small parts allready received from Moss....
Jan Kruber

Well done Jan.

The spring from Kim will be good I know, as for Moss yet again they let me down very recently, I accept anyone making a mistake it's how they deal with that mistake that matters and not doing as they promised to rectify isn't good customer service egardless of how many customers and transactions they deal with.

I hope you do better with Moss than me, I'm sure you will just by statistics.
Nigel Atkins

Nigel
I cross my fingers. I hope I have received some parts that I can enjoy. I previously have received small parts from Moss that were useless, but at the same time I'm very impressed by their huge selection, their customer service, their communication after transactions in their webshop, their homepage as such and not at least their preferred courier UPS. I have only known UPS for one year because of Moss, and I'm impressed by their
informativeness right from short after ordering at Moss until the day of delivery and actally ending with a message that the package has been delivered - as if I didn't knew :-)
As you can see I didn't really have had any seriously bad experience yet, but who knows in the future.....
I totally agree, it's not okay to leave a customer to himself if he has a problem with some products, but so far I may have been lucky.....
Maybe the company has a few flaws, but they have a huge amount of parts maybe made all over the world, probably the orient, that makes it possible for us to maintain and drive the cars made several decades ago.
Maybe a have another point of view next year Nigel, but I hope not :-)
I hope you get my point dispite English is not my mother tongue.... well time for a Friday evening beer.
Cheers !
Jan
Jan Kruber

Jan,
your English is better than mine, unfortunately that's not as big a compliment as it should be. But beer translates well in any language.

As I put it's really a matter of statistics, if a few didn't get poor service the many wouldn't get good service, I'm happy you get good service and long may it continue.

I'm with you in supporting companies that cover an extensive range of parts as well as the small specialist, many big and small companies have shared a small fortune from me over the decades of my classic cars ownership, I've done my part to keep them in business.

I too found the UPS delivery man very good, same for DPD who give you a one hour deliver time on the day (such as 13.54 to 14.54).

Nigel Atkins

Over here we have a problem with packages taken from the front door while at work. The UPS delivery notice will let you know if you have been a victim of package stealing. Hopefully that is not a problem where you live.
J Bubela

This thread was discussed between 25/11/2017 and 11/12/2017

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

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