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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - G'box rebuild - Part II - do I replace laygear??

Hi there and thanks to every one that contributed to my first gear box thread, your comments have been printed and kept.

I've come the conclusion that debris can be the only cause of the previous gear box failure as it was not under any sort of load when it failed.

Having looked at the 1st gear on the laygear side (on my replecement 'spare' box) I've noticed a significant amount of pitting and it appears that in areas the hardened surface has come away. These lay gears (22G1100) run at £160 from Moss or £99 from AH Spares although I have not checked stock. The main shaft 1st gear has signs of wear, but not the pitting that the laygear has, I think it's useable.

I'm rebuilding the rest of the box with new bearings, and thrust washers all round. I also plan to make up a magnetic drain plug to attempt to catch stray gear particules before they dive through the gears!

Questions;
1) How useable is the gear in attached photo?
2) How realistic will it be to hunt round for a good second hand part? (Or do they all wear on the 1st?)
3) Should I hang up my heavey-right-foot-in-1st-gear, re-use this old gear and be ultra careful using 1st & reverse.. grow up and stop trying to write the number '11' in the road. (Engine is a 1380.)

Thanks agains, James

(I know this isn't the most entertaining thread on the forum so thanks for reading!)




James Eastwood

1) i would not use again.
2) no idea
3) 1st in a ribcase should always be treated with some care.

1st is short so I (try) just to use it to get roling.
Your 1380 should have enough torque for that
Onno Könemann

Sadly, that laygear is stuffed.
BUT never grow up! If you do it's time to sell a midget.
If it was me, I would bit the bullet and fix it properly, including a new first gear by the sound of it. Much better than having to pull it out within a relatively short time and do it all again.
There was a time when I wouldn't have minded doing that on my own car, but I did it so often that the prospect of a short term saving rapidly lost its appeal.
Paul Walbran

You could try contacting Hardy Engineering. At one time, they were fitting new first gear 'ends' to laygears. Might be worth a try.
Dave O'Neill 2

..and then I found this..

http://www.minisport.com/mini-spare-parts/info_22G1100.html

..apparently a 22G1100 is common to the Copper 3 synco box and available new for £41.67. Has any one had one before from Minisport?

Will call Minisport tomorrow. Regards James


James Eastwood

Yes, it is common, it also turns the other way ... which has the helpful result that the teeth wear on the other side, si if you get a worn Cooper one will be ratty in reverse in a Midget and vice versa ... always assuming that it hasn't done too many autotest which could result in both sides of the teeth being worn!
Paul Walbran

Don't buy cheap... you get what you pay for.... Peter May or Hardy Engineering.... both good.

Sadly you need to renew both and at the same time you should replace the Layshaft and ALL the bearings. Check the synchro rings and renew if doubtful, also check for wear on the selector forks..

gearbox rebuilds (if done properly) are NOT cheap, but the box will be sooooooo much better.

Mark.
M T Boldry

Results now in;

Peter May, Hardy & Moss = in the order of £120+vat
Hardy do not repair the Midget laygears
Minisport - £35 +vat (not in stock, but on order)
Minispares - £72 +vat (in stock)

No explanation as to the wide price variation.
James Eastwood

the proper stuff, chocolate, and playdough (in that order) :o)
David Smith

David's right...! I've built many Spridget gearboxes and without a doubt, the Peter May and Hardy options are by far the best.

For the sake of a few pounds on parts agains doing it all again in a year.. is it worth it...?

Buy cheap, buy twice....!

Mark.
M T Boldry

Hello James, a little side note on the bearings.After I had rebuild my gearbox (with new bearings) it kept jumping out of third gear. It took me to dismantel another gearbox, now more carefully, to find out that the inner race of the rear bearing is wider than the outer race.I orderd a new bearing again (same part number)and this time it came with an instruction leaflet and shims.The box works perfect now.

Maybe you allready knew this and they supply the shims as a standard these days but since taking out the engine and dismanteling the gearbox takes such a long time I thought I better share this experience with you.

Pascal


pjw Seezink

We have had this discussion before about cost V quality = Value.

And I don't doubt the experience of those that say the PM and Hardy ones are good, but how can one tell that the Minispares is not from the same source? The lower price could be simply that there are fewer steps in the supply chain or lower mark-ups at various exchanges. Is there a proper empirical way of judging this? It seems surprising that an item sold by a reasonably well known supplier, albeit for a mini Cooper application, should be of doubtful quality. It is also quite surprising that a low-volume item like this would be being manufactured at more than one place these days. Same part number, so how can one tell it isn't the exact same item?
Guy Oneandahalf Sprites

Guy, it's that big intangible - Reputation. Both Hardy's and Peter May have built a reputation year in, year out over at least 20 years for supply of quality products. I agree no real way of knowing if the 35 quid part would last as long, but even I as a complete non-engineer can pick up a laygear, handle it and marvel at it and conclude 'no-one can make this properly at a cost of a tenner' whch is roughly what it would need to cost for the 35 retail price.
David Smith

I have seen a 'cheap' laygear and I wouldn't want to fit it to my gearbox!
Dave O'Neill 2

Sorry David but i think you pay for the name most parts are made by one company . Lets face it to tool up to m/c a lay gear must cost a bomb so your not going to be doing one or two . Then youve got to sell them so they are not going to one supplier they end up going all over.
b bithell

I am not coming down on the side of cheapness at all costs. Far from it, I would much rather pay a little more and get something from a reputable, well known supplier. And not just because I would see less risk in doing so, but because if these good folk are not supported then they will disappear, leaving only the rogues.
My point was more questioning whether the items themselves were in fact the same parts. I think that b b is on the same track. But maybe there is one source of "blanks" and the skill and quality is then in the accuracy of final machining which may be done at a number of businesses.

Or perhaps what we are looking at is the well-known two streams out of the factory. The front door and the back door outlets, but both off the same production line!
Guy Oneandahalf Sprites

bb - no need to be sorry; you are competely free to make whatver buying decision suits you. For myself, I continue to draw on 35 years of messing around with Spridgets, I learnt the 'buy cheap, buy twice' lesson the hard way :-) Far east manufacturing and materials is so universally awful that I prefer to seek out genuine old stock or good secondhand original parts rather than buy new. Back to the laygear - remembering this is common to the 3-synchro Mini box, the UK market is a few hundred a year I reckon, factor in rest of world and there's plenty of demand for multiple suppliers. Perhaps somebody with hands-on experience will say what a viable production run would be, I'd guess at 50?
David Smith

This thread was discussed between 14/11/2010 and 16/11/2010

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

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