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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - How Does a Type 9 Feel?

Hi everyone,

Back for more. So I'm interested in doing a 5-speed conversion as part of my 2nd rebuild this summer; the type 9 sounds by most accounts to be the best option. Between Daniel Stapleton's book (which I got shipped from Nebraska...!) and thewizardsden I've got a good idea what it involves technically. However, I still don't know to things:

1) How does it FEEL? I love the notchy, positive feel of my standard 4-speed and if I made the conversion I'd fit a shortened remote. Would it feel squidgy or as loose as a modern car's gearbox? Is there any obvious place to try one out?

2) Forgetting the obvious avenues due to cost, how do you go about getting the propshaft right? I think it's cheaper to have one made up than to buy one from the usual suspects - how does this work?

Any other advice for me? The archives seem to be great for technical details on the job but lacking a bit in subjective comment!

Thanks as always everyone!

Josh
Josh Spooner

A type 9 does not feel a nice/tight as a GOOD ribcase.

Never drove one with a short remote so no idea how close they come to the original position.
But with a normal remote the position is just sh*tty.

Remember you are weakening 2 of the most structural parts of your midget by cutting the cross member and cutting a bigger hole in the tunnel.
This can be compensated for but I just don't like it
Onno K

I don't think that shortening the extension actually alters the FEEL of the change. Other than altering the position of the lever and how readily it "falls to hand" as you move your hand between steering wheel and gear knob. And if you think about that, it is as much affected by your back length, height of your shoulders and the relative lengths of forearm and upper arm. All these things impact on your ideal gearshift position which is why there are as many who like the shortened extension as there are say that it is quite unnecessary!

What I think has more effect on how the shift feels is the length of the gear lever - mine is VERY short, giving a shift which needs very little movement of the gear knob. It is very precise and feels more like a proper "gate" shift. Being such a short lever means, less leverage. To make this lighter I also shortened the detent spring at the front end of the selector shaft, making for a light touch change.

So, that's the technical bit. Subjectively, it is perhaps not quite as mechanical feeling or notchy as the ribcase. But I wouldn't say it was less precise, at least not with the adaptations I have made to mine. The shift is very quick, short-throw and accurate. My "grown up car" is currently a MK6 Golf which by modern standards is quite a nice change. But being by cable, I think that my T9 is actually nicer, but then the whole driving experience is different so its difficult to be objective about that.

The only way you will really get an answer is to find one to try out. But even then, you will see that there will be different details of installation that will make individual cars feel different.
Guy Weller

I have a type 9 in my MGA, and can only say it is a vast improvement on the original box, even when that had been rebuilt. The gear change is positive and not at all squidgy or loose.

I have driven a few midgets, and the gear change I would rate as very similar to the MGA original box.

The type 9 would be much quieter, and the extra gear makes long distance cruising MUCH more enjoyable.
dominic clancy

I agree with Onno - doesn't feel quite as nice as the original.

But

After having one for a bit then going back to the 4 speed, the old box feels small and weak. Still changes nicely, but you get the feeling that being rough with it will make it sad.

I'm running a standard length one with a slightly bent forward lever, and it sits in a nice place and is pretty good to use. The change is certainly nicer than anything else modern I've driven, as long as the little saddle bush is in decent nick.
Rob Armstrong

Josh.

What does it feel like?

Take a drive over to me, and you can drive mine if you're insured, and fancy a trip to Kent.

First understand the reason for changing to a T9 or other 5 speed. If I could have obtained an original 4 speed that lasted I wouldn't have changed.

But the original boxes were never 'that' good, even when new. After 30/40K miles they were usually on their way out (noisey/crunchy). Now with limited and expensive spares/replacements, as far as I'm concerned, the ribcase is a waste of time, -- unless you already have a good one.

Feel? A T9 feels like driving a 5 speed instead of a 4 speed. It's not that different. Often I don't use the 5th gear, esp in town. The ratios aren't exact, but close enough to not matter. My g/lever is further back, but I'm used to it now, and actually quite like it. Although I would probably have gone for an original lever position if my kit included it.

Much more importantly, it feels like driving a car that doesn't constantly require you to crash the box in first, lasts an awful lot longer, and it's quiet.

AND, as a bonus, the 7.5" clutch clutch, the concentric slave, and the roller bearing combo in mine is SO MUCH better than the original setup.

Disadvantages? Well as Onno pointed out, the chassis has to be cut. I don't agree that it weakens the car though. The replacement plate adds the strength back.

So, fancy a look at mine? Email me.
Lawrence Slater

Hi just fitted type 9 in my 75 RB midget it's great just done about 1000 miles now it's drive like dream ,don't bother with the short turret mode ,you only need to cut a little out at the back off the existing hole I cut the lever down to 20mm above the anti rattle and it just rite
C Walsh

Lawrence I must disagree with your ctitique of the ribcase. I bought a Midget in '75 at 2 years old, used it every day to commute into west London plus autotests and ghymkhanas at the weekend, by mid-eighties it had well over 100k miles and it never got noisy or crunchy or broke. Today there are plenty of good second-hand boxes around at reasonable money whereas Type 9s are getting pretty scarce I hear. And of course the ribcase still has arguably the best-feeling gearchanges of any box, look after it and it's an absolute joy to use.
David Smith

Hi guys,

Thanks very much for all of your POVs and advice, it's really very helpful. I think I probably will go ahead and convert to a 5-speed if I can, as a lot of driving i do is long journey stuff so a quieter cruising experience would be great.

I'll be back on here again soon, I'm sure.

Cheers!
Josh Spooner

Is a reasonable compromise to fit a 3.7 diff and tune the engine slightly to make up for the loss of acceleration.
I Clifton

Hi David. Well I can only say that of the 1/2 dozen ribcases I had in my Sprite, none lasted more than 40k before becoming noisy and needing a crunch to engage first. I used to live in London and most of the miles were gained in London traffic. I confress, I never actually had a brand spanking new one though. I only ever had rebuilt ones, which included 2 BMC Gold Seal -- crap, 1 BMC silver seal -- , worse crap, and various g/box builders versions of reconditioned, all crap.

They would go on for years before becoming unusable, but I got sick of the noise and general crunchiness. I've got one with about 70K in the loft, all the gears engage, but it's noisy and crunchy.

So finally I went for a T9. But as I said, I wouldn't have bothered if I could have got a decent ribcase. I wouldn't mind going back to a ribcase, if I could get the kind of box David describes, -- along with fitting a roller release. But I haven't seen much evidence of fully reconditioned boxes these days. Don't they all re-use some of the parts due to shortages of certain parts?

T9's aren't so scarce. I've got 4 of them (3 spare). lol.



Lawrence Slater

Ah so that's why T9s are in short supply - you've got them ;-)
I can only conclude that all your pre-owned ribcases were driven by people who had no mechanical sympathy and no idea how to engage a non-syncro first gear. Depress the clutch, pull the lever back towards second, feel the 2nd gear synchro engage and slow the rotating internals, then push forwards into first. Silent engagement, every time. My father taught me this in about 1965 (before I could legally drive) but I guess a lot of young people just don't know.
On replacement parts, the baulk rings were for several years imported junk and wore quickly, but I understand that a supply of good stuff is now available.
http://gerardsgarage.com/Garage/Tech/baulk_rings/baulkringsWS.htm
David Smith

Yup, I seem to have stumbled on a few T9s going cheap, so I bought them. I began with just one for a spare, but for the price, I couldn't resist the additional boxes, -- to sell one day for a profit. :) -- I hope.

"pull the lever back towards second, feel the 2nd gear synchro engage and slow the rotating internals, then push forwards into first. "

Yup I agree. And that does work well for the first 30/40K miles. After that, I've spent quite a bit of time, at traffic lights for example, going in and out of 2nd, and not being able to engage 1st at all; -- usually when the box is hot. I've often resorted to pulling off in 2nd, but when I have engaged 1st, -- noisy is a mild way to describe the racket, and not only in 1st.

But it's not only the baulk rings that wear. It's the gear clusters I thought. And they get re-used until completely knackered. Probably why all my rebuilt boxes were so bad. Only the "worn" parts were replaced.

Can a 'complete' set of gears, bearings, and everything else needed, be obtained to properly rebuild a ribcase? And how much would it cost?

For example.
85 quid. All you get is bearings and gaskets.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MG-Midget-1098-1275-Gearbox-Bearing-Overhaul-Rebuild-Repair-Kit-/150977559423

180 quid, all you get is the laygear.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MG-Midget-1098-1275-Gearbox-Lay-Gear-22G1100-/110998944536

Given the age of all the boxes now, I reckon you need to replace most other parts too, how much would it all cost? Is it all available?
Lawrence Slater

Some times it laughs when its happy, but it can cry when its sad also.... just be gentle and understanding

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

something that's not been put yet is the feel of the car with a type-9 change - more direct

I think I'm right in this but I'm happy to be told if I'm wrong, the type-9 box is longer and heavier, the prop is shorter - so feels more direct

type-9 gear changes don't feel as nice as a good original box but it won't feel anything like the squidgy gearshift on most modern FWD cars

I switched from two years use of the recommended Comma SX 75w-90 semi-synthetic oil to Castrol Syntrans Multivehicle 75W-90 Fully Synthetic MTF (GL-4) and instantly had improved gear changes - http://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-739-castrol-syntrans-multivehicle-75w-90-fully-synthetic-mtf-replaces-smx-s-75w-85.aspx

I've got a quick shift gear lever but I don't think they suit as g/box changes aren't that quick, I agree with Guy that a shorten lever helps a bit (but I'd not go anywhere near as short as Guy likes though)

I've also got the shorten remote, it does not put the lever back into the original position, it's just off to the left and rearward (as per photo, arrow was to show plastic saddle that if it requires renewing it helps the lever feel more positive )

as to whether you want or need a shortened remote it depends how tall or short you are, how long or short your legs and arms are

I would strongly recommend you take up Lawrence's kind offer of a drive and then you'll have a very good idea of what they're like


Nigel Atkins

The quick shift is rather different to just having a shortened lever like mine (which I think is similar in look and feel to a TVR Chimaera, if you have ever driven one of those.

The commercially sold quick shift is achieved by altering the pivot point of the lever. This is done by moving the ball about 1/2" up the shaft of the lever and introducing a spacer on top of the gear turret. It literally changes the leverage such that the required movement at the forked lower end of the lever is achieved by less movement at the gearknob. The alteration can be done as a DIY job, but I think most just buy the quick shift replacement lever.
Guy Weller

these things are subjective which is why I suggest Josh takes up Lawrence's kind offer

I must be remembering the photo of Guy's gear lever wrong then as it appeared shorter than on a TVR Chim

I've driven about 5 different Chims and am not sure I'd compare it to the type-9 shift but perhaps with a very short lever it feels different to mine

I don't think the type-9 would feel like the early Chims as they had the 5-speed Leyland box, that I know as I've had it in a couple of cars and would say feel different again
Nigel Atkins

I wasn't referring to the gearbox feeling like a Chimaera one, just the way the gearknob on both sort of nestles down into a fold in the gaiter, looks and feels similar to mine. And yes, mine is VERY short - shorter than on any of the Chimeaeras I have driven, but similar.
Guy Weller

sorry I misunderstood about the feel part (but it was the thread subject so you did go off at a tangent :p)

but I think you're being a bit poetic about yours nestling, to be diplomatic I'll say it looks more like a shy tortoise

gowon put the photo up of yours again, you must have pianist fingers, I could only think of a medical condition when I saw it
Nigel Atkins

I had covered my views on the "Feel" of the gear selection/ gearbox in an earlier thread. You may have missed that.
Here's the photo you are after, as a reminder. :-)


Guy Weller

And here's the "similar" one on my Chimaera


Guy Weller

wow that is even shorter than I remember!

more like MX-5 and a lot less like a Chim

your type-9 box remote must be a lot better than mine, it's possibly the way that the remote was shorten on mine but even now when there's no struggle to get it into 5th, as there was previously until it wore in(??), I very much doubt I'd be able to get 5th with your lever

that's more of a tribute to your gearbox and remote and shows perhaps mine isn't the best example

thanks for putting the photo up, I hope it's OK to put that it did make me smile again and that I'd definitely get a doctor to look at it :)

ETA: oh you've got a Chim, presumably not an early one but one with a T5 box, year and spec?

the photo does show the lever and gaiter are nothing like yours, you do see that don't you
Nigel Atkins

Its all in the interpretation Nigel. The Chimaera gear knob isn't on the end of a long wand like the standard ribcase one. And that is what I was getting at when I said that my shortened one is similar to the Chimaera one. Mine, being that short and with the other modifications I described earlier has a total fore and aft "throw" of around 2 1/2" and is very light to move. I just rest the palm of my hand on the top of it and push it gently, moving from neutral into any gear with about 1 1/4" of movement.

When "naked", you see that the gear lever is not that short.
Pornoto of a naked gearleaver:


Guy Weller

fair enough Guy but you must admit you'd need a visit to SpecSavers to say they look alike

you've got my head aching with that photo, is the rubber bushing under the rubber gaiter?

and you're not suggesting that all that lever is beneath your gear knob and cloth gaiter, the box would have to be dragging on the floor

the standard Sierra gear levers I've seen have the rubber bushing and are bent back is that a lever from a different car or one you've altered or is my memory going again?
Nigel Atkins

Nigel, you are struggling aren't you! The "naked" lever is the standard Sierra one. Or at least it is the lower section of a standard one. The original has a rubber jointed piece added on top. I burnt that bush out to remove the long top section, and then heated and straightened out the crank in the lower section. Otherwise its the same as standard or "similar to" in my parlance!
Guy Weller

David Smith,

I wonder if I got one of those baulk rings in a BL silver seal rib case box I got about 1984 when I rebuilt my frogeye. The first box supplied never got fitted as the main shaft wasn't central to the extension housing and so went back, the replacement failed after a few months and they said a component looked like it hadn't been hardened and picked up IIRC, the baulk ring?, that was replaced under warranty but I was never happy with the replacement as it wasn't smooth and the gear stick vibrated in use. That last box gradually developed jumping out of 1st, then 2nd, then 3rd, at the slightest hint of overrun and had to be held in gear in traffic to prevent it jumping out, it didn't see hard use behind the 1098 and that deterioration was in about 1 - 1.5 years so I wasn't impressed with the rib case box and fitted a Ford 4 speed from an Escort and all was good again. To be fair to the rib case box I gave one from an Austin A40 to a friend for her mk2 Sprite and that was a lovely box, light shift, smooth, quiet. all you could want really. So I guess it is the luck of the draw whether you get a good one, I opted for the BL rebuilt option as I assumed they ought to do a good job, bad assumption.

IIRC regarding baulk rings the late Terry Sanger mentioned Jack Knight doing steel baulk rings as there was demand from the likes of BSM who running Metros and saw a lot of baulk ring problems with the standard item.
David Billington

Guy,
thanks, for some reason it looked longer, now I know it's similar and altered

it can't be that much shorter than mine but certainly looks it

I did see recently on eBay that you can get heavy duty saddles, not the brass ones but nylon I think £11 inc P&P IIRC
Nigel Atkins

with my previous Spridget I had trouble with a replacement recon gearbox in the mid nineties

between about 50-70mph in forth there was vibration and noise

for various reasons I gave up on the recon box and traded it in against a rebuilt unit via Bromsgrove MG instead

at the time I had a 50 commute to work much of it up the M6 so I could either go below 50 or above 70mph to save going (more) mad

I chose to go at about 49 and that was a very good decision, often on the 50 mile return I'd be in the inside lane with half a mile to the vehicle in front whilst the middle and outside lanes were nose to tail and often I'd have to slow down so as not to under take them

before that my understanding of motorway use was that you went as fast as the vehicle would go and mostly in the outside lane

someone from the local MG club saw me and I won a trophy for using my MG and because they didn't think I could go slow because I had an undeserved reputation in the club for always going fast

I done my mpg test with my present Midget at 50mph up the M6 even my wife wanted me to go faster but I remained disciplined until the end of the test
Nigel Atkins

David Billington
"I opted for the BL rebuilt option as I assumed they ought to do a good job, bad assumption. "

That was my thinking too, and my recon ribcase g/box replacement saga, also began in the early 80's. So maybe I too was a vitim of poor parts, and not so much poor design.

Interestingly, I've just watched a John Twist video, (albeit about MGA/B boxes) in which he describes poorly hardened shafts in the boxes. Also includes Triumph boxes. So maybe if the parts available today are made properly, a good 1275 box can be put together?
Lawrence Slater

On the 3rd box in our midget, no idea how long the first box was in but the second box came from mgoc and only lasted 7000 miles as it was a minor box... Now have a hand built competition box from a firm near leatherhead which is wonderful with rifle like change. Don't need a 5 speed as car is used for historic rally's .
d brenchley

Ian: just seen your question about fitting a higher ratio diff. It will make the car more "long legged" but at the expense of reduced acceleration and the need to change gear more often. I found when I moved from a 4.2 to a 3.9 that even the small increase in "mph per 1000 rpm" make cruising more relaxed but the country lanes stuff needed more "driving" because of reduced flexibility at say 35/40 mph. Going from a 3.9 to a 3.7 represents a similar change.
But if I were off to say the Le Mans Classic and had to keep up with other cars, it would definitely help.
You could always carry the 3.9 as a spare in which case carry an extra gasket!
:-))
G Williams

Thanks Graeme. I'll put one in!
I Clifton

Ian
There may be a few hills where you are going so best to throw in a 4.2 just in case.
Alan
Alan Anstead

Alan. Will do!
I Clifton

Not everybody wants or can afford, to shell out a large chunk of money to buy a kit to do this conversion. Some want the cheaper diy approach, that quite a few (Guy for one) have successfully followed here.

So is there a single comprehensive list, already in the archives perhaps, detailing what's needed, and in particular the cheapest way to do it?

If not, it might be useful to compile one -- for the record. For both the 1500 and the 1275.

In this case to save Josh some dosh, a 1275 list would be handy.

Examples.
From which cars to get the propshaft end for the T9, who to get the propshaft cut and welded(balanced?) by? And has been discussed recently, the cheapest concentric slave to use, and where to get it.
Lawrence Slater

Lawrence,

IIRC you won't get a coupling from a production car that uses circlips, they'll be staked, but you can buy a coupling called a "rocket box coupling" with the same size UJ from various suppliers. I bought mine from a motorsport supplier but can't remember which. I suspect any place that does propshafts would be able to get one or know where to get them.

I think it was GKN Motorsport I got the coupling from.
David Billington

Lawrence, the problem with this suggestion is that sources, prices and availability vary over the years. And a lot of keeping the costs low is down to individual opportunism and searching around at the time. Not likely that those same opportunities are available to anyone else, then or now. My T9 conversion cost just over £220, including gearbox and oil! That was using parts and components collected together between around 2000 and 2003.

I most certainly couldn't repeat or get anywhere near that sort of cost saving now!

T9 gearboxes were cheap then. The few bits I needed to buy in order to modify the box were pence. I used a front yolk from a scrapyard - it was on some version of a Transit van. Local tech college instructor welded and checked the balance of the prop shaft for me for free. Ditto welding the alloy on my DIY shortened gear selector extension.

The only bits I bought new outright were the bell housing (biggest cost, from MM Motors, Brum) a spigot bearing and a clutch driven plate. The latter came from a local branch of a national motor factor. We searched through numerous boxes until I found one that would do. My regret now is that I didn't record the part number and application! But Fiesta or Avenger are possible candidates. The driven plate was slightly larger than the 1275 one, but just fitted within the same clutch cover (pressure plate) so I reused that (it was relatively new anyway) I remember that the plate self-polished the slightly larger diameter surface on the flywheel.

I made the gearbox support/ cross member replacement. Made the reinforcing for the cross member. Made an engine steady. Cobbled together the speedo drive to avoid buying a 90 degree gearbox, although I did buy the MGB cable.

My concentric clutch slave was done a little while later, as an upgrade. I only bought the slave cylinder and a few pipe fittings. Plus paid a fiver for a chunk of alloy from under someone's workbench in a local engineering shop, which I turned up on an ancient lathe to make the mounting block. Less than £40 all in.
Guy Weller

Phwoar! So much to take in! Many thanks to you all - I like the idea of trying to establish a list of what we need to do a conversion, even if the suppliers/costs changes over time. As I understand it, you need:

- £150: A T9 gearbox (from a 1.6, 1.8, or 2.0L Sierra/Granada)
- £20: A 1500 bellhousing
- £? The adapter plate from bellhousing to gearbox
- £? To cut down your existing propshaft to the right length, have it re-welded and balanced.
- £? (<£10?) The end from a ford propshaft to connect the modified propshaft to the gearbox
- £80 (?) A 90 degree speedo drive cable to avoid it breaking etc
- £? A new concentric clutch slave cylinder
- £<20 Some box section and plate to weld up the cut-out section in the crossmember


Anything else?

Cheers!
Josh Spooner

In the fine tradition of "as cheap as possible"

90 degree speedo drive is nice but not essential. Mine's been OK for about 4 years now.

Concentric clutch is also nice but not essential (at least on a K-onversion, you can use the cable stuff from the ford end)

Rob Armstrong

My Type9 is now fitted to my 1500. It's a short-remote box and the lever emerges at the limit of the rear of the standard opening. I cut the upturned rim off the opening, cut away to provide good access to the gearlever mounting plate, tidied up the area and made a new cover for it using a Jaguar boot. I'm keeping the long lever and rather like the classic 60's look of the chrome against the circular boot. I cut the retaining ring out of 2mm steel and it's just painted light metalic grey with a coat of clear gloss. I think when surrounded by carpet the little round turret will look as if it coiuld have been made that way. I'll top it off with and old fashioned plain black gear knob.


N.C. Nakorn

cut, welded and painted


N.C. Nakorn

almost done


N.C. Nakorn

All finished with a rubber gasket underneath to keep the weather out.


N.C. Nakorn

This thread was discussed between 23/05/2014 and 02/06/2014

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

This thread is from the archive. The Live MG Midget and Sprite Technical BBS is active now.