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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Interpreting OBD11 codes - clearly NMC !

One for Willie, I guess, but others may have ideas.
A friend's car in need of sorting as the power steering has packed up. Its a Citroen, a 2011 C3 Picasso, 51,000 miles, in otherwise good condition, but well out of guarantee. No other faults apparent.

I have checked the easy stuff: fuse, loose connections, battery. Battery was at 12.2v so I put it on charge for 4 hours and got it to a stable 12.7v. Is this enough? When running I get 13.6v

Dash warning icon shows Power Steering Fault

OBD11 check returns P0606 "Permanent Fault" which I believe means an ECU fault, but its more than one module on these cars. So hopefully this relates just to the PS module. Its attached to the PS pump but can be removed and should be available separately.

I also get a code P5FF which is 'Unexpected reinitialisation of the BSI interface'. (Built In Systems) Dont have a clue what that means!

Doing a live system scan (engine running) I get the data for the Power Steering. It responds showing a varying input torque as I move the steering wheel plus and minus figures as expected. It shows Zero Amps (cos the motor isnt working ?) and 3v for input supply. I'm not sure what this voltage is to do with, but it seems low to me, certainly if its the input to drive the electric motor! Is this a clue?

I'm about stumped at that. What do I do next?
GuyW

Guy
It's a known fault in 2010-2012 C3's
It's the motor/computer assembly on the rack that needs replacing
I'd be going to the Citreon dealer and making a noise about it--they know it's a fault and they have been known here to fix them even at 10 years old
I'm not sure if it's the actual motor or the controller that dies, but it comes as a unit
I have heard that it's the controller part that dies if the owner is known to hold the steering on the lock it melts/cracks the soldered joints on the circuit board from overheating--but that's only a rumour-???

Good to see you've been into it with your scanner and getting some response , so that tends to point towards the system is working to a degree but probably failing in it's outputs-or a dead motor--but most likely the controller part of the unit.
The 3v reading you got is most likely the can-comunication line to the engine pcm--can usually runs around 2.5V +- a bit depending
P0606-is a warning that there's a permanent breakdown in the electrical circuit in the system
P5FF is a comunication error--what that is saying is that the power steering(in this case) isn't responding to commands and it-(the system) is trying to reconnect and reset itself when it shouldn't have to-but can't cause it's broke


A motor/controller off the bay if you can't get anything from Citreon I guess---A non genuine one might even be a better unit ---I've bought door activators and boot catches etc from there (made in china) and they've proved ultra reliable--so far

willy
William Revit

Yep, you are right Willy. There's lots on forums etc confirming pretty well all of that.

Known fault with 2010/11 cars, never a manufacturers recall but with persuasion they will sort it as a 'goodwill gesture' beyond the official 3 year warranty period (later increased to 6 year) Up to 10 years kick up a fuss and it is repaired FOC but after that there is a very sudden drop off in their willingness - just for a few months over if you are lucky.

This car is now over 12 years and theres no chance of getting it covered by Citroen. Anyway their deal was you pay the main dealer garage for a diagnostic check (even if youve done one) That costs £140 around here. A cynic might say that is so the garage get the labour element of an eventual "free" replacement covered! I might call in but I think that is a non starter for this car. The garage charge for the diagnostic is much the same as a used replacement unit off ebay. Other options are a refurbished original or a clone copy one. Or I suppose a genuine Citroen one at £600 to £1200, fitted! Not!

I was hoping I might distinguish between failed motor or failed PAS module (ECU) to avoid buying them both if only one was faulty. I can get a used ECU module for around £40 if its just that. I may be misunderstanding but from what I have read neither of those codes relate specifically to the motor itself. I suspect OBD11 can't 'test' the motor because a faulty ECU module is effectively blocking any responses. Does that sound right to you?
GuyW

Yep-
I'm thinking it's probably more likely to be the controller (EPAS unit) as well.
Having a P code (P0606) is 'powertrain' related so jt points towards a control issue
P=powertrain
0=generic code-if this were a citroen specific code it'd have a number
6=internal electrical fault.
The comunication system(can) must be ok otherwise you'd have a 'U' code of some sort.
It's a bit weird having a 'P' code but i guess it's via some sort of feedback so that the car will go into limp mode if the fault is deemed dangerous ??
The engine ecu would be talking via can to the steering controller exchanging data for car speed and also load for adjusting idle speed
I'd think if the controller(EPAS)was working correctly and it was purely a motor issue it'd be throwing a different code produced by the EPAS unit--This would more likely to be a 'C' (chassis) code.
A Citroen dealer 'might' be able to connect to the car and run (test)the motor, depending on what level of test gear they have.
I know at the Ford dealership here we had the gear to get in and operate almost anything remotely on fords or be able to monitor when it was supposed to be working and with a power steering similar to what you have there the outputs from left-right demands would be visible on the screen but then there's always that little gap between the output and the motor which can be either an output fault on the circuit board or the motor
Does your scanner have the ability to do a self test on the EPAS unit.
Sorry i can't help much more than that, haven't had a lot to do with Citroens at all-
willy
William Revit

Other than heavy steering, the car is behaving normally as far as I can tell. Certainly not in limp mode. The PAS module is attached to, and plugs into the motor unit so I dont think there's any way of bypassing to test the motor, at least not without removing it from the car. That's the next step.

It was that odd wording against the P5FF code of 'Unexpected reinitialisation of the BSI interface' suggesting that was blocking further access. Each time I ran that check, even after clearing codes it came up with reinitialisation again suggesting to me some sort of loop iterisation that it couldnt get past so then posts the generic PO606 (or maybe that is P 0606 ?)
GuyW

Yes it's as you suggestP 0606
Been thinking about this P5FF code-
here a while back my mate's late model VW Passat had the emissions light on-I plugged my little basic code reader in and it came up with a similar little short code that I couldn't find a reference to. I knew it would be powertrain because of the P in it-the next number was something like 5 or 6 ,can't remember but normal obd numbers don't usually start that high and the 2 letters following had me puzzled--Usually when the number after P is higher than around 2 it means it's something specific to the model of car being tested --so took it into work and plugged the Subaru specific scanner into it and bingo it came up with an obd code for no1 injector circuit (P0671 if my memory serves me right) -So decided that my little scanner only reads basic no model specific codes- Why this came up as an emissions fault is still interesting to me because glow plug circuit faults usually get the glowplug light on, but there it was,
Measured the resistances of the glowplugs all good, check their power supplies ok, so pulled the glowplugs out and powered them up (7v for Subaru plugs) and found no1 slower to light up than the others---All the sensors on the exhaust were smart enough to pick the faulty g/plug but how it knew it was no1 has still got me puzzled but there it was.
Long story short--but I guess what i'm getting at is maybe the Citroen scanner might come up with a more detailed explanation for your P5FF code maybe
William Revit

I've come to the same sort of conclusion Willy. I think the scanner I am using is too generic for this case. Its actually not a cheapy one and is very good on VAG cars. It does read the citroen VIN and comes up with the right vehicle but then the oddities start.

Doing a full automatic fault scan it returns that P 0606 number and displays " Permanant Fault" under a heading of Engine ECU. As the only apparent problem is the steering I thought this must this include the separate PAS moule. But everywhere I look says that P0606 is an engine ECU code and it would also show the engine warning light EML. No problems at all with the engine and no eml ! It also shows a fault with PAS.

If I then re run the scans system by system (there are 17 of them, giving more layers of detail) they are all clear including the engine one. No P0606 this time!
But the PAS scan then still shows this odd code of F5FF Note first letter is F not a P. I was expecting P codes and read it wrongly! It is where it says that "re-initialisation" message. In common language that suggests to me either a connection fault or a firmware fault with it trying to start a PAS module check but unable to do compete it, but I don't know this.

There's also stuff on line about Citroen electrics being sensitive to low battery outputs and this comes up with PAS faults, so I have had the battery on charge overnight. Not hopeful about that but you never know until you try!

(Sorry to others here, to soil the BBS with non Spridget content, and worse, with a lengthy modern Citroen topic! Yuck!)
GuyW

I've also found this uses an integrated PAS motor & module unit - unlike earlier cars when they were separate. So no question of a £40 mudule fix! I can get a refurbished unit at £280 or a clone copy new at around £350.

Fitting aint easy though - its a subframe out, or at least dropped job. Not something I want to do if its just a battery or poor connection fault somewhere!
GuyW

Don't know if this'll help with that code--
Found on facebook--

https://www.facebook.com/dave.thebear.marler/posts/here-is-some-useful-info-for-anyone-who-owns-a-citroen-peugeot-or-french-car-wit/1077755415681318/
William Revit

But then that looks more like a body module reset--don't know but woth a try I guess---??
William Revit

Thanks Willy. The link seems to just take me to his general FB page and scrolling down his various posts and video clips. Nice one of a girl doing a nice guitar riff but nothing I can see about Citroen fault codes!
GuyW

Copied it out- but starting to think that code is just a comunication failure of some sort that can come from any of the controllers in the car-?----good luck

Dave Marler Mobile Mechanic
rotnsedopS2n0301ylg02 5i4l5a371u57uaJc75487118 2rahg9gl831a2 ·
Here is some useful info for anyone who owns a Citroen, Peugeot or French car with someone else's badge on it (eg. Toyota - Why ? You had such a good reputation you fools )
When you next get in it, if it's brain farts it will drop into crawl to the dealer mode and if you do, you will most likely get mugged.
OR you can do the following reset procedure.
Plug your obd reader in. If it says - "F5FF: Unexpected re-initialisation fault coming from the BSI" then read on.
Peugeot BSi reboot procedure
The BSI unit is basically a computer which
handles a multitude of functions such as
odometer value, central locking, lights and
immobiliser, etc. Some Bsi units are liable
to corrupt their own software program if
not “woken up” in a specific way or as a
result of bad connections, bad earths, jump
starts, driving through potholes, duff batteries
or disconnection, young lads with laptops
"doing a remap" bad multi connectors, dogs
chewing the wiring or if you sneeze with the
windows up etc.
Procedure for Initialising the BSI
1. Disconnect the diagnostic tool and say short prayer.
2. Put the driver’s window down, lift the bonnet and ensure all
equipment is switched off.
3. Ensure all doors are closed and remove key from the
ignition.
4. Wait for 3 minutes, disconnect the vehicle battery and wait
15 seconds.
5. Reconnect the vehicle battery, wait a further 10 seconds (do
not open doors.)
6. Switch on the side lights through the driver's window.
7. Switch on the ignition and check system’s functionality.
8. Hold lock button on key down for 10 seconds.
9. Remove key open & close door & test central locking system
10. Start the engine and hope for the best.
11. If this procedure is required more than 3 time a day, trade
your car in for something Japanese.
I accept no responsibility for anything that happens as a result of you messing with your car just because you read and tried this out
of desperation.
William Revit

Thanks for that Willy. I suppose on a very wet afternoon (car is dry, in neighbours garage) there's not too much to loose 😁

Why couldn't I find that on the link you sent!
GuyW

Result! Well, sort of - a minor success but not with the major problem.

I followed that magic process you found and it has settled down my somewhat erratic codes. Everything is now showing clear. No more F5FF code and the P0606 code now only appears when I do at dtc scan of the power steering. So it tells me there is a Power Steering fault.
But I think I knew that.

I think I have accepted that I need a new or replacement PS motor. I spent a while lying under the car looking at it. Access is difficult. I think it needs the engine subframe to be dropped. Unless just possibly, the rack can be removed complete via one wheel well. Not a nice job either way. 🙄
GuyW

A little step forward, but like you I was a bit hesitant (but hopefull) that it'd be a magic cure. At least it got rid of the F code.
Looks like it's coming out then-
It's a shame you can't unbolt the motor and leave the rack in there---it'd probably still be driveable without it while you play doctors with it if the car was needed.
It'll be interesting to see what you find, I can't really see it being the actual motor as i'd suspect it to be some sort of brushless setup--more likely to be a fault on the circuit board on the controller component side of it---maybe the rumour of cracked/damaged solder joints on the relay legs on the board are true---
William Revit

Guy--not sure how much work you've done on modern cars , obviously you have a handle on the electrical side of things but there's a trap if you're removing the rack.
Behind the steering wheel there's a clockspring wiring connection for the airbag which has limited travel
If you're pulling the rack out you need to get the wheels pointing straight ahead and the steering wheel straight and tie the s/wheel in that position- reason being if you don't and the wheel spins when you disconnect the rack ,then it can easily get reassembled a turn out and break the clockspring first time the steering goes on the lock
same going back together ,make sure the rack is centred before mating it up to the already centred and tied steering column and all will be good--
It's just something to be aware of and easily overlooked in the heat of getting the rack out/in

willy
William Revit

Thanks for the steering tip Willy.
There are two questions I have been chasing on this. The first was to try and identify exactly where the PAS fault lies. I needed to rule out all those which dont require replacement of the unit itself. The non expensive faults. I think I have gone about as far as I can with that line.

The second is how to remove and refit the steering motor unit and its integral electronics module. I think I can unbolt it from the rack. Access isnt easy and working blind, by feel on one of the bolts, but I'm ok with that.

But it is then trapped in a space between engine and bulkhead, with the rack, anti roll bar subframe and exhaust baring the way out downwards. That leaves possibility of wriggling it out sideways along the rack and into a wheel well. I need to remove the plastic wheel well liner to check that route. Or I remove, or at least lower the sub frame. Not easy as a home DIY option.

Subframe is bolted to the body with 8 bolts. I lowered one fitting an alfa ARB once by replacing 4 bolts with threaded bars and nuts, then removing the remaining bolts and lowering and raising the subframe on the studs. Like lower wishbone pans on a Spridget! (midget content at last!) It made realigning the subframe easy, which on an alfa otherwise meant access to special alignment tools. Anyway, thats a possibility.
GuyW

Subframe is fitted with bolts having those odd cone shaped torx heads. Not straight sided. I guess they are used for automatic machine head assembly.

But what are they called and how does one measure and state the size? I need to get one, or a small set.
GuyW

Don't know what they're called Guy-------
I bought my torx set off the BMW dealer here when he closed down- the 'splines are straight in the sockets but the boys are slightly tapered
Interesting ,I hadn't ever noticed before 'till just looking at them now- The male bits are numbered as normal as in 50 or 55 for example but the sockets the same size are T10 -T12--don't know what these numbers resemble, I measured the od of the T12 and it was barely 11mm---?
Anyway, i use them on everything, including those short little male headed bolts with the taper going up into the splines and they work ok on everything I've come accross ---- so far
William Revit

Just talking to myself really. I finally got the PAS motor out. I got it unbolted from the rack - working blind, fingertips to locate torx screw and then 3/8 drive kit of 2 extension bars and knuckle joint to get the top screw out. Then a couple of hours trying to manipulate the unit out by various routes, but all obstructed by fixed components. Nothing that could readily be moved.
Sleep on it. Always helps! 3 am lightbulb moment. ARB is a complicated shape and by disconnecting the drop links and moving the ARB arms upwards in the wheel wells the bit of the 30mm bar, barring the exit route by the exhaust 'tunnel', pivoted downwards giving just the necessary clearance needed! 😁

I do wonder if I will ever get it back together!
GuyW

Well done young man-
It's strange when you do a job like this first time it looks a real challenge, but now you know what/where things happen, it'll fall in place going back in and you'll think to yourself how come it was so hard getting it out---good luck-
William Revit

Willy,

I'm not sure that's quite true as I pulled the heater blower on my 1st Passat easily when investigating a problem then spent about 10 minutes trying to figure out just how to angle it to get it back in again as it didn't want to go back in as easily as it came out.

Guy,

Any pics of the motor and any idea what type of motor it is, brushed, brushless etc.
David Billington

This thread was discussed between 21/07/2023 and 27/07/2023

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

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