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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Laid up for 3 years - won't start

Hi,

I have recently purchased a 1977 MG midget 1500 that hadn't been started for 3 years so I have checked that the engine is free to turn which it is.

I have purchased a new battery & tried to start the car- no click from the solenoid or sound from starter on cranking.

Fitted a new Lucas solenoid SR341 tried again -no click from solenoid even though good voltage on Red/White wire from Ignition switch on cranking.

I then removed all the earth straps & cleaned them & the body where they were reconnected to- still no click from the solenoid

I then purchased a new ignition switch which I fitted-still no click or sound from the solenoid/starter.

I then bench tested the two solenoids I have with the new ignition switch & no reaction until I earthed the solenoid onto the connection where the Light green/white wire to the coil fits & then the solenoid clicked & the starter turned.

Surely this can't be correct as I now have a spare unused Light green & white wire that should be going to the coil?

Could you advise me where the problem lies?

Many thanks,

John V Bragg
(A frustrated Midget owner)
John Bragg

It's not quite clear about how you are testing this. If the parts are off the car, have you simulated the earth connection between the components that is otherwise provided by the car bodywork?

At the ignition switch you should have one switched output which goes to the coil and remains live with the key turned to that position. There should then be a second terminal which is only live whilst the key is being held against the switch return spring and this should go to the solenoid switch terminal. This will only then activate the solenoid if the body of the solenoid is connected to the negative post on the battery (usually via the car bodywork).

The 1500 also uses the ballasted coil system which I think needs a connection between the solenoid and the coil such that whilst the engine is cranking it gets a boosted feed to the coil. A wiring diagram would help clarify this arrangement (handbook?)
Guy Weller

Something not right about earthing the centre contact for the bypass because it should have no effect. Actually be careful doing that because if wired correctly when the solenoid is energised it'll have an unfused 12 volts on it.

So to test bolt solenoid to car so it's earthed. Connect earth strap from -ve bat to car and another from car to engine. Battery cable from battery to solenoid and from solenoid to starter. I suspect you know that.

Make sure the battery is correct way around.

All fat brown wires go on the battery side of the solenoid. 3 I think.

Leave the white/green bypass wire disconnected for now.

Put a piece of thin wire on the small terminal and dab it on the battery. It should crank. Make sure it's the correct small terminal on the solenoid and not the bypass terminal. If it cranks then connect the white/red on here and bypass on the other.

See how that goes.
Greg H

I would test the starter first. Easiest way is to stick 2 wires from it straight to the battery and try and get a good contact else it will spark at you.

Surely you can trace the starter circuit from the wiring diagram quite easily? There isn't much to it. Presumably you have a voltmeter.
C L Carter

wiring diagram and just so, so much more to help you with your car - Driver's Handbook - (Ref: 0058) - http://www.mgocshop.co.uk/catalog/Online_Catalogue_Handbooks_5.html

this DVD includes Driver's Handbook, factory parts books and factory Workshop Manuals, not as convenient as the paper copies but all the information in one place for one price - http://www.rimmerbros.co.uk/Item--i-HMCC3010DVD

having a new battery and checking all the earths and electrical connections are clean, secure and protected is a great investment at the start of ownership and will help to resolve and also prevent problems

I always suggest a full 36k-mile service/check up and clean and replace of all oils and coolant and brake/clutch fluids - then frequent driving to iron out the wrinkles and for you to get used to your car to drive it at its fuller potential

the wiring aspects are mostly beyond me but as you've found plenty here will help as will owning and reading the Driver's Handbook
Nigel Atkins

in a simple thought...

sand the contact area the selinoid that mounts to the engine bay and the corrosponding of the engine bay...then bolt into place

the selinoid is grounded thur the body

prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Many thanks to you all for your immediate input to my problem.I have noted all your comments but sadly I still have the same problem of non-starting.

GUY-When I am checking the components off the car I have earthed the body of the solenoid to the earth pole of the battery but only do I get the solenoid to click when I run another earth wire to where the green/white wire to the coil should be fitted .
The red/white wire from the ignition switch to the solenoid does show a12v reading only when the key is in the cranking position but the starter is still not being thrown.

GREG-I totally agree with you about the earthing of the centre contact & this is what is baffling me.

CL- The starter turns over freely when the solenoid is by- passed.

NIGEL/PROP-Thanks for the Web references I will view them later tonight & hopefully find a clue to solve the problem.
I have had all the earth wires off the car & thoroughly cleaned /sanded them & the body/engine contact points to no avail.


Finally as a last thought in Haynes Workshop manual page 205 Fig.10.28 it does indicate that an MG Midget 1500 prior to the end of 1977 should not have the ballasted coil system & that the solenoid is earthed & hence there should be no green/white wire from the solenoid to the coil-Mine was first registered1/1/1977 so possibly a previous owner has fitted a later wiring llom & changed the system.

I have even ran an earth wire from the battery to the body of the solenoid whilest fitted to the car but with no positive reaction from the solenoid of which I have now fitted three different new solenoids so the problem is to do with the earthing??

As a final twist in the tale-The Autodata Car Manual on Page 144 Fig 7 shows a wiring chart for all 1500 models with a ballasted coil.

Does anyone have a 1500 model previous to 1977?
If so is the solenoid earthed through its body to the car chassis or is it connect by a separate earth wire to the solenoid?

I wll keep persevering!

Regards & thanks again,
John Bragg
John Bragg

I cant imgine how a ballested or non would effect the opperation of the selinoid...at this point id go with whats working...the.green / white wire to get it started and running..you can always come back to it later as im sure there are more pressing issues yet to be discovered after sitting idel for 3 years


prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

All Midget Lucas starter solenoids earth through contact with the body.
Dave O'Neill2

John

If you do 'touch' the wire to the battery post to see if it turns the starter, please make sure thet there's no gas from the cells..

My dod once brought me a set of Lucas 5" spotlights for my old Sunbeam Alpine, he said for me to try them on to a battery that was under the window...
As soon as I touched the wires to the terminals there was a massive 'BANG'!!!

He didn't tell me that he'd had it charge all night!!

The hydrogen gas produced from the charge should have been purged away but it ignited and the battery was blown to pieces!!, I don't know how I didn't get hit with either the plastic or acid but pieces of the battery travelled right up the front yard (around 35') and right across the road (probably another 40' with the kerbs!)

I couldn't hear anything fior the whistling for three solid days!


John :)
j b biggs

good warning there John (Biggs), easily overlooked in the rush to test or fix things

John Bragg,
always cross reference any information you get from any source (including, and often especially, me) with other reliable sources - I've not always found Haynes to be reliable whereas the information in the relevant factory Driver's Handbook will be and relevant factory Workshop Manual should be,then of course there's factory Parts catalogue (more of that later)

retailers' catalogues can be variable so a copy of the relevant factory parts list or catalogue is a very useful reference (allowing for the passage of time)

I've just got the 1982 Haynes from under the wonky table leg - page 107 (altho' it's not numbered)

Ignition coil
Type
All other engines (i.e. not 948/1098/1275cc) - Lucas 15C6

Primary resistance at 20C (68F)
15C6 coil - 1.30 to 1.45 ohms
Ballast resistor (15C6 coil) - 1.3 to 1.50 ohms

see the note on item (just below) 83, coil ballast type GCL111 - http://www.mgocspares.co.uk/acatalog/MGOC_SPARES_ELECTRICS___IGNITION__MIDGET__165.html

item (just below) 24 - http://www.ukmgparts.com/browse.aspx?CID=a50709b2-a969-4cce-a883-ab5908543e80&SID=4b491df2-33ca-417e-b27b-068ee464fea6

Ignition Coil - Rubber Bumper Cars - MGB + Midget - GCL111 - http://www.sussexclassiccar.co.uk/shop_factory_hazel/contents/en-uk/d1268.html

and finally

the paper reprint of the factory Parts Catalogue, February 1977, 1st Edition
page 174 and 175, GCL 111, Coil-ignition (ballast) - remarks Midget 1500

I could have added a couple more suppliers catalogues that were confusing on the matter to prove not to trust just one but you'll have to take my word for it or discover them for yourself
Nigel Atkins

I'm thinking you have the wrong solenoid. It sounds like it's got an insulated body. What you'd use on a boat where you don't have an earth return through the body.

Do a test on the small terminals. If this is the case then one small terminal is +ve and the other the -ve. Measure the resistance acroos these. It should be open circuit. If it has a few ohms then that's the low voltage winding.

Wouldn't think so if you've bought the correct part but that's what it sounds like.

I'm assuming you have earth cables from -bat to body and body to engine.

Any photos?
Greg H

The bypass (WLG) terminal is the top one in line with the main terminals.


Greg H

Many thanks Guys for your assistance in my problem.

I will be have a look at the problem again this weekend taking on board some of you kind advice & will let you know the outcome.
regards,
John
JV BRAGG

SOLUTION FOUND:
NEVER BELIEVE THAT SOMETHING PURCHASED NEW IS PERFECT.

I PURCHASED A LUCAS SOLENOID FROM A REPUTABLE SUPPLIER ON E BAY- FOUND IT TO BE FAULTY,KINDLY REPLACED-STILL FAILED.THINKING TWO COULDN'T BE FAULTY PERSEVERED, AS CAN BE SEEN BY ABOVE PLEA FOR ASSISTANCE, UNTIL I DECIDED MAYBE THE SECOND IS ALSO FAULTY SO PURCHASED A NEW SOLENOID LOCALLY-STARTED ALMOST FIRST TIME.

COMPLAINED AGAIN TO E BAY SUPPLIER ABOUT FAULTY SOLENOIDS HE HAD SENT ME & HE SENT ME A FURTHER REPLACEMENT LUCAS-GUESS WHAT-AGAIN FAULTY- SO REMEMBER IF A PROBLEM PERSIST WITH THE NEW PART DON'T DOUBT YOURSELF HAVE THE PART INDEPENDENTLY CHECKED.
THANKS AGAIN FOR ALL YOUR IDEAS,
JOHN
JV BRAGG

John thanks, this is a new one to add to the list of faulty parts

in many threads here others and I advise of poor quality parts and to buy NOS or reliable sources

you also need to be wary of rotor arms, flasher units, condensers, CB points product with rubber in, gaiters TRE, hoses, seals, ect. - the Archive is full of them

reliable sources are the likes of Distributor Doctor and Ashley Hinton

I've a load of non-technical, non-mechanical general notes I offer to new classic owners if they email me, included is :-

• new parts or components can be faulty so don’t assume because it’s new it must work – if possible check that all new parts and components work fully and will fit your car well in advance of starting the work so that you can exchange for the relevant item any that don’t work or wont fit before you start the work

• don’t assume the part or component fitted to your car is the original type or correct or fitted correctly, check and cross reference the information you have – and do the same when ordering parts or components, check and cross reference the information

Be aware that brand new parts can sometimes be faulty, especially electrical bits so don’t discount them when problem solving just because they are new, buy good quality parts

even new rotor arms are often faulty get a good quality one from the Distributor Doctor – http://www.distributordoctor.com/rotor_arms.html

but starter solenoids are a new one on me to add to the list

Nigel Atkins

This thread was discussed between 12/02/2013 and 03/03/2013

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