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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Lowering front suspension

Four years after the rebuild, I think the suspension has settled all it's going to. Still looking a bit silly at the front end - so one job this spring is to lower the front about an inch.

Is it best to use the Peter May kit (£14.40) or can I **safely** lower the springs by packing the spring pan retaining bolts with this quantity of washers?
Steve Clark

Pic shows what I mean by silly...


Steve Clark

Oversized nut would be better than washers... I would think.
Trevor Jessie

use whatever is to hand for spacers, don't forget because of the angle / fulcrum point, to lower 1 inch you need about half that of spacers *I think*.
David Smith

Ah

so that's ground clearance

I seem to remember having some of that once upon a time...





As David suggests it is about half the packing depth for the depth intended.
Bill sdgpm

A nut would be easier than washers, I cheated and used lowered springs as I was worried about the same happening had assumed mine had the spacers but no it was just worn springs.

As David says only put half the amount of height you actually want to lower it by.

Shaun
Shaun

I used lowered springs from PM which are a little bit lovely...cheating, again.
Rich Amos (1 Sprite 1 Midget!)

I used longer bolts on the spring pans and used two nuts as spacers.
Steve Church

Should take no longer than 30 mins to inserts washers/nuts as DS says, esp if you don't have the FL conversion.

Make sure that there's enough thread engaged within each bolt (i.e. bolt end should be flush or proud of bolt, for strength/safety).

A
Anthony Cutler

Mine is lowered with washers, which work fine.
There is one drawback, - all you are doing is lowering the car and reducing the travel to "bottoming out" the suspension. Particularly at the bottom of dips in the road. The ideal is to use shorter but uprated springs which lower the car AND increase the spring rate.

Lowering also increases the negative camber a bit. Not sure if it is enough to alter the handling as such but does give the car a more "mean" look at the front.

Guy
Guy Weller

I 'm with Guy on this one, the problem with lowering the spring platform is that you are moving it away from the rubber bump stop, and as a consequence the spring can bind up solid before the spring pan hits the rubber bump stop, and then the suspension crashes out, you may be ok with only half an inch of spacers, but it can get to be a real problem with one inch lowering spacers.
It needs some carefull measurements taking, lowered springs are the best bet.
But you can have the opposite effect with very low springs, where the car is on the bump stops very frequently, especially on public roads. it can get very twitchy!
Ian
Ian Webb '73 GAN5

Hi Ian

Lowering the spring pan moves the damper arm nearer the bump stop. The springs are less likely to bind IMO under these circumstances - you're going to hit the rubber bump stop - not desirable, but it's there for a purpose.

A
Anthony Cutler

Guy, Ian, Anthony,

I don't see this method will have any effect on increasing or decreasing the likelihood of coil binding as you're not altering the relationship between the ends of the coil and the bump stop and spring pan, all it does is alter the relationship between spring pan and wishbone to lower the car.

Anthony,

I can't think of a way that lowering the car moves the damper arm nearer the bump stop, quite the contrary. Lowering would lower the chassis relative to the stub axle and so increase the distance between the lever arm and both the bump and rebound stops, the rebound stop being the important one as that's the one the lever arm will hit.
David Billington

Gents
I am refering to the REAL bumpstop that is fitted to the chassis in the top/middle of the spring, not the one under the damper arm, that isn't a bump stop, its probably a rebound stop.
I think when you space the spring pan away from the wishbone itself you are moving it a similar distance away from the bump stop that the spring pan should touch on in a heavy landing for example.
I could be wrong, I often am !!
Ian
Ian Webb '73 GAN5

Ian,

As I see it you're spacing the wishbone away from the spring pan upwards. Given you don't change the weight of the car then the compressed length of the spring will be the same afterwards and the bump stop to spring pan distance maintained. Assuming no tyre change then the fulcrum pin end of the wishbone will be in the same position and due to the approximate 2:1 ratio the inboard chassis end of the wishbone will be lowered by about twice the spacer length.
David Billington

Steve,
That's not silly, this is silly!


Matt 1275 Bucks

yes - was referring to rebound stop... and quite right... the lower susp puts this further away. The dangers of posting in the middle of a call (was going on too long...)!

A
Anthony Cutler

....not helped by having strange profile tyres methinks.
Anyway it now looks like this having lashed out for PM's 1/2" spacers and lowering blocks. I felt slightly more confident using these than bodging up my own and when you allow for the new nuts washers and nicely machined spacers they'r not such bad value.

It still looks high to me (probably the tyres) but if I lower it much more I'd be constantly bottoming out. Stiffer springs or a diet might help!


Matt 1275 Bucks

I think I've got my old wires a bit crossed and remebering a situation with some extra long springs!
The thing that needs to be carefully checked when using one inch spring pan spacers is that the lever arm does not reach it fully upward travel, because the spring pan may not reach the large lower bumpstop before the damper arm goes solid (especially on some dampers that have been reconditioned and the arm may not have been replaced in the correct spline/ position.
Best bet is to bolt in the spring pan and move the suspension through full travel (without the spring fitted) to check
I seem to remember being reccomended this by the supplier of a set of spacers some 30 yrs ago !! (Aldon IIRC)
Probably with only half inch spcers all would be fine.
Cheers
Ian
Ian Webb '73 GAN5

I wasn't talking about the spring coils binding. I was meaning how low will the body go under full spring compression.

Anthony, the rubber buffer under the damper arm comes into play when the spring is in extension, not under compression. As Ian says, it is the bump stop within the coil which limits the suspension compression movement, assuming that the coils don't bind first that is! However, lowering the spring pan realative to the lower wishbone will also lower the car and the position of that bump stop by the same amount, so I don't think there will be much if any difference as regards hitting the rubber bump stops.

What I was meaning is that with a lowered car it is more likely to really bottom out; either the anti-roll bar mounts hitting the deck, or more likely, the tyres contacting the lip of the front wheel arches. I think that both these things happen on my car when driven too enthusiastically. I think the only solution is shorter, uprated(stiffer) springs.

Guy
Guy Weller

Ian,

IIRC Peter Caldwell has made that point before about the dampers going solid and can supply ones suitably set in terms of arm position for the suspension setup.
David Billington

Guy,

You're quite right about bottoming out and it reminded me of a guy I used to know that had a succession of Austin A40s. One in particular was lowered so much it used to clip the floorpan on bad bumps.

I've never intentionally lowered the front of my frogeye and the springs are standard spec IIRC and a fibreglass bonnet so a bit lighter but I was always happy with the ride height. I did fit the ARB above the chassis rails after nudging the clamps on a few curbs, almost spelled it kerbs, the only issue I had with scraping was heading into Avon Rise at Castle Combe and that was the exhaust.
David Billington

Does anyone have a pic of which bolts I'd need to insert a bit of packinbg in to lower the front end, just about to start painting the calipers so while in the wheel arch may aswell do this job aswell.

Thanks in advance
Arron
A Burgess

Sorry - no pic but the spacers go between the wishbone and the spring pan.

So from the top its...
Bolt-Wishbone-Spacer-Spring Pan-Washer-Nut

This is the closest pic I have...which just shows the top of the bolts.
http://www.eatworms.org.uk/album/album2.php?album=midget-FrontSuspension&mode=page&index=13


Dean Smith ('73 RWA)

Cheers Dean that now makes sense, and the pic is perfect.
A Burgess

Hi same issue and would like to lower mine as well.

Do I need the long threaded bolts to hold the springs while I fit the lowering kit, or can I can I just support the springs on a trolley jack (body supported of coarse) while I fit the kit and bolt it up?
R Fowler

R - it's easier than you think. With the wheels off, undo all 4 bolts until the thread is just flush with the open end of the nut. Then you should be able to undo one bolt completely and replace it with the longer bolt and spacer. Do up until the bolt is flush like before, and repeat for the other 3.

Then tighten all up as normal.

Really easy - esp if you don't have the FL damper conversion.

A
Anthony Cutler

Thanks

I will order the kit
R Fowler

Say hello to squashed anti roll bar mounts and exhaust collector for me.
Shawn

R - Just done mine this week, I actually did it myself and used a large nut as the spacer using the existing bolts, I'm going to see how that goes, the nuts used are about 10mm thick which I think means it will drop 20mm.

Thanks
Arron
A Burgess

just reactivating this thread, as I have just fitted the Peter May lowering kit to the front suspension, and I have to say, its made little or no difference to the gap between the tyre and wheel arch lip, does it have to settle on any way, or is it supposed to be immediate? I am confused..!

So from the top its...
Bolt-Wishbone-Spacer-Spring Pan-Washer-Nut.

Did this but not sure its working?


RUS(59SPRITE)

Rus
is your suspention at max travel?
this could happen with way to long springs
the springs then should still be compressed even though it is has more space
Onno Könemann

Rus

I assume you've fitted spacers between the wish-pan and spring-pan so the spring-pan is lower?

Did you move the car (say) 10 feet backwards/forwards to allow the suspension to settle from being jacked up?

A
Anthony Cutler

The spacers are fitted in the correct place, between the spring pan and the wishbone so that the spring pans are lowered, I am beginning to suspect the springs are too long..... I took it for a drive, went 3 miles, so was pretty sure the suspension has settled!
RUS(59SPRITE)

All of the above ignores the other solution to the "appearance" problem, raise the rear end! Of course this works only if one is not too worried about handling.

Mike
Michael McDonald

Michael, if I raise the rear end I run the risk of the car looking like Matts first picture (see above) I like Range Rovers, but I don't want a Sprite version....!
RUS(59SPRITE)

well, I didn't get the initial drop I wanted, so I bought longer bolts ( inch and a half) and some extra nuts, and introduced the nuts as extra spacers, the result ? The car dropped about an inch and a half, and consequently looks a lot less likely to go into orbit.....!

The gap is still about 3 inches, but this seems to be about right, so I will leave it there.






RUS(59SPRITE)

Rus,
Although the end result looks much better and works well enough, what you have done is simply to lower the suspension without in any way firming it up. It will still have the same amount of compression in the springs when you hit a bump and will now be even more liable to "bottom out" on the suspension. The proper solution is to use a shorter, stiffer spring, especially if you travel fast over rough roads.

Along the same lines - as your initial photos did look as if the car was unusually high I wonder if the springs are for a later model (1500 used taller springs, 1275 used stiffer springs than the Frog).

I am certainly not against lowering at least by small amounts by using spacers - that is what I have done on my own cars - but you need to be aware of the other side-effects.

Guy
Guy Weller

Just to jump in on this thread, will it be as easy to lower mine with the frontline setup? I've just fitted fibre glass wings and I'm in the process of fitting a K series which is considerably lighter. I anticipate a 4x4 stance!

Steve
Steve Hipkiss

Guy,

All I can do is try it out, then if I find its no good, I will order springs, I have got an ARB fitted as well, so its not totally standard frogeye setup anyway. Some of the roads here are a bit vicious, but I am usually careful, thanks for the advice though.
RUS(59SPRITE)


Follow up the this, I took Guy's advice and ordered the shorter springs, as I wasn't convinced the lowering kit was the best solution:

Here is an old and new, the old one was about 9 inches long and seemed to be way thicker, not sure if they were frogeye springs, but the car is now riding lower, and I suspect, behaving better.

Of the various methods mentioned for removing them, I favoured the long bolt method, gradually backing off the securing nuts until the tension on the springs was relieved (still supported by a jack underneath as well though, just in case)

Thanks to all once again.







RUS(59SPRITE)

and pics of the new ride height?
Onno Könemann



Not a whole lot of difference over the lowering kit on its own, I just wanted the car to behave as it should, I think the new springs will handle better than the old ones.

Photobucket links aren't working...grr!!


RUS(59SPRITE)

looks a little more level now:




RUS(59SPRITE)

I just realised,

I have to buy the new BIGGER tires before I do my suspension /rear axle build, other wise my car will be up in the air also like in the 1st photo at the top of this thread.

I got 145s currently and going to (175, 185 maybe 205... cant remember) but thats why im so close to the ground now... Duh!

Prop

Prop

This thread was discussed between 22/02/2009 and 13/06/2010

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

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