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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Midget 1500 Rear Spring Fixings

Have spent some time searching this forum as well as others, just can't find a picture to confirm my suspicions: I am changing both rear springs on my 1500 and it seems to me, that someone has welded shut the access holes for one of the 4 screws fixing the front spring plate (see picture - red oval marks where I think there should be an access hole).

I know 2 of the screws are accessed from behind the seats - I found these (although I can't get them undone); the screw closest to the prop shaft I can undo; the outer screw (yellow circle) turns, but I can't see any way to access the nut...

Can anyone help with a picture of how it should look? Or at least confirm my suspicion?

Additionally, it seems that I can only remove the shackle on the exhaust pipe (left) side without removing the spring bracket... on the other side, there isn't enough clearance to the petrol tank :(. Am wondering: if I cut the shackle off, can I fit the new one in the other way around (pressed into the spring bracket from the outside, in the direction of the petrol tank)? It seems to me, it shouldn't make any difference which side the shackle is inserted from... but would like to hear the experts' opinion!


S Tatlow

Access to the other 2 bolts is inside the car, under the carpet, right behind the seats.

Remove the bolts from inside the car & the one's you have circled in yellow & the bracket will pull down far enough to work on.

If you're replacing the bushings along with the springs, I would recommend using polyurethane replacements...they give a nice tight feel & last years longer than rubber ones.

Good Luck
Dave :)
Dave Rhine ('78 1500)

OOPS

I misread your post!

The nuts, if I remember correctly, are welded into the frame, access shouldn't be needed.

Soak everything down with penetrating oil first & you may have to apply a little heat...those look pretty rusted.

I did mine last year & had no problems.
Dave Rhine ('78 1500)

Thanks for the answer - actually, I realise now my original posting was maybe not totally clear: the bolts inside the car (2 per side, inserted from top) are not the (main) problem... the yellow one (inserted from under the car) is the problem. That is, I can access the screw, no problem, it even turns... but I can't access the nut that belongs to it - can't even see where I would access it, other than, as I said, through an apparently welded shut access hole. I can't really see how removing the 2 inside the car behind the seats is going to help me access the nut?! The red area is where I _think_ there should be a hole... don't need a photo to prove it (although it'd be nice ;)!), a confirmation that I'm right would do... if I am right, then I'll have to cut it open - would hate to do this on a duff suspicion!

And yes, I will be replacing the bushings with polyurethane (fast road) ones. Just about everyone seems to recommend them, and at least the problem of perishing rubber is history :)!
S Tatlow

Aha! I was too impatient ;)

I did wonder about this... but turning and turning didn't seem to do anything... but perhaps I was too impatient there too?! Will give it another 10 turns ;), and will try the other side too! (Although the other bolt, closer to the prop, is definitely not welded to the frame... but then, perhaps someone already drilled this out and had to replace it?! If you could confirm whether there is a hole in your midget where I marked it red, this would, I think, answer the question for sure: no hole = welded nut)

The real problem is: I've had this Midget for 17 years, over half its life time, and have never done any work on the springs before, just replaced the shocks... so you can guess the reason for it looking so dreadful! It used to be my everyday car, before kids... had time, but no money. Now I have 5 kids, (a tiny bit of) money, and no time... until now. Trying to get it through the german TV (MOT) - was easier the first time 6 years ago, now, after 4 years of 'out-time' in the garage, I want a 'history' certificate (over 30 years old, cheap insurance and road tax), and the same guy is being somewhat more exacting... he moaned about the sun visors being missing... on a cabrio... and with those tiny Midget ones!! Oh well, that problem at least was relatively simple to fix...
S Tatlow

Just checked, mine are threaded...seems to be threaded blocks welded to the frame & no access holes, just like yours.


Dave Rhine ('78 1500)

Aha (another one of those moments)! Not that I've had a chance to check yet (cooking Risotto for the family - in the last stages, so at least had a chance to sneak a look back here), but I know that on the prop side, the screw does go into a block first, before it screws into a nut... beginning to really suspect an earlier bodge job, because I did notice that the screws on the left hand side are a different size to the right hand side... oh oh oh.

No! Don't assume the worst... FINISH that risotto, no matter how desperate the urge is to have a look RIGHT now... wait until the food is done and eaten, the kids are in bed... phew, surge of curiosity conquered, if only temporarily :)!

(by the way: Dave, your Midget looks GREAT! I'll post my vehicle profile too, as soon as I get a chance... but it can't hold a candle to yours, that's for sure... maybe in 10-20 years or so ;)!)
S Tatlow

Thanks for the compliment...

And yes, it sounds like a bodge job to me (what's a bodge job?, actually I think I know)!

Good Luck
Dave :)
Dave Rhine ('78 1500)

Definition of a 'bodge' job:

"A clumsy or inelegant job, usually a temporary repair"

Like you said - actually, you think you know :)!

It's also essentially the same as a 'botch' job...

(risotto finished, eaten, and, despite broccoli, actually enjoyed and appreciated ;) - now, off to the garage to get oily!)
S Tatlow

You also asked,

"Additionally, it seems that I can only remove the shackle on the exhaust pipe (left) side without removing the spring bracket... on the other side, there isn't enough clearance to the petrol tank :(. Am wondering: if I cut the shackle off, can I fit the new one in the other way around (pressed into the spring bracket from the outside, in the direction of the petrol tank)?"

That's the way I did mine when I replaced my shackle bushes several years ago. Apparently the suspension was installed in the car before the fuel tank, so it wasn't a factor during original assembly. I turned the shackle so I could access the fasteners from the accessible side.

-:G:-
Gryf Ketcherside

Yes, there should be a threaded block/captive nut welded to the top side of the floor panel.
You could cut the bolt head off, push the remains upwards and inwards and see if the original thread is still there. If it's stripped, drill and tap to the next size up.

Rather than cutting the rear shackle, just unbolt the hanger from the boot floor.
Dave O'Neill 2

Let us know how it turns out, I'm curious, I really didn't have a major problem removing mine...just the usual skinned knuckles & profanity.

Dave ;)
Dave Rhine ('78 1500)

Good advice, Dave, that's what I did...unbolted the rear hanger...unless that's been bodged too (learned a new word)!
Dave Rhine ('78 1500)

if that weld nut is turning, that is strange, and could be a challenge to deal with, without cutting apart body structure to get to it.

Here's what I'd do: cut off the bolt head with a grinding wheel, to get the rest of the suspension out of the way, then see if some small tool can be got in through the spring hole to stop that nut turning, so you can get the rest of that bolt out with a vice grip.

If not, then drill out the remainder of the bolt.

In either case, getting a new weld nut welded into place up there will be a trick without cutting out and welding back that reinforcement plate that it is welded to.

With as much rust as is visible in your photo, I wouldn't be surprised if you have one or two of the bolts break off while removing them. If you do, drill out the rest of the bolt and use a helicoil if you damage the threads (no need to go up one size). Weld nuts are usually only grade 3 ("soft"), or grade 5, so a helicoil will be at least as strong as the original material, and the thread engagement is roughly the same area, so I've no concern about using in the suspension. That particular nut is pretty deep, so you can use 2 helicoils to get the same number of threads.

Here's how I drill out broken bolts without necessarily damaging the nut's threads: drill a small diameter hole all of the way through the bolt piece, and then gradually increase the diameter of the drill until you just kiss the edge of the threads. By that time, I can usually twist out the rest. I have tried "easyouts" before, and reverse thread bits, but they never worked for me. By my method, you don't even have to be in the exact center of the bolt.

Use cutting oil (or any motor oil) to keep the drill bit cool, and use a very slow cutting speed (most electric drills are way too fast). A slow speed will actually cut faster, and the bit will last longer.

Most of those bolts broke for me, taking my old MG apart, and these ideas grew out of dealing with all of them.

Norm "rusted bolts" Kerr



Norm Kerr

they're not captive nuts, they're 3/4" cube blocks (pic) welded onto the inside of the bodyshell in the cavity. If one has broken free (and they do) then you will need to do a bit of cutting and patch repair to weld a replacement in there.


David Smith

Well, thanks for all your feedback, you Americans... maybe I'll get some 'English' feedback tomorrow ;)!

However, thankfully, I think I'll manage just fine without it, to be honest... specifically, my thanks go to those across the water, to Dave Rhine. Due to his wonderfully prompt feedback, I went and tried both sides again, with sobering results...

It turns out, I was at least right with my 'bodge job' guess... and how! On the right hand side, I tried the bolt towards the prop side, and could feel the nut turning with my fingers through the access hole. The other bolt, on the outer side, also turned freely... when I looked through the jack point (!), I could see why. Sticking a spanner through the jack point (!!!), I managed to hold the nut firmly enough to extract the bolt. The other bolt (whose nut was accessible through a 'normal' hole) followed shortly, seeing as I had obviously reached the point of no-return.

On the left hand side, I also took out the prop-side bolt first, since I could reach that nut, if with some difficulties (again, accessible through a 'normal' hole). The last bolt, which had caused me the problems and doubts in the first place, came out when I put enough torque on it (about the x-axis, NOT z-axis) to wedge the nut on the inside that I couldn't reach as I turned the bolt, so that I could undo it after all.

So, I extracted 4 bolts, which should (theoretically) all be the same (no. 44 in the explosion diagram). As you can see, I had at least 3 different bolts: M15, 9/16 and M13, with varying degrees of rust. At least I know now why there were no nuts detailed in the exploded drawing!! As for how I'm going to get it all done up again with the new springs and plates... I'll leave that problem for tomorrow :)!!

Thanks also to Gryf as well as to Dave O'Neill and Norm Kerr (for giving me courage and ideas for solving the left-overs of the previous bodge-jobs).

I'll keep you posted as to how the refitting goes - somehow, unlikely to be as simple as the Haynes manual suggests: "Refitting is the reverse sequence to removal." ha ha ha!! (yes, the laughter of the mentally depraved :D!)

P.S. I have time pressure with the German 'MOT' (just 7 days to have the noted faults re-checked, otherwise nearly €100 must be paid in full again) and had ordered new shackles but unfortunately NOT new hangers or - more importantly, here in Germany - the necessary imperial bolts and nuts... could 'bodge' it with metrics, but if I can avoid removing the hangers at all, I'll be happy, at least temporarily.




S Tatlow

Thanks, David - that's the last bit of confirmation that I need. At least I also know now what a Helicoil is... will probably be needing something like that... or, I'll have to bite the bullet, and really cut into the already welded metal plates on the underbody.
S Tatlow

Good Job!

And yes, you're halfway done, according to Haynes ;)!
Dave Rhine ('78 1500)

This thread was discussed between 25/07/2010 and 26/07/2010

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