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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - MOT Failure Advice Please re Brakes

Took Frog in for MOT today. Failed on three things:

1) Front offside tyre rubbing against wheel arch. Will solve this by refitting old Minilite wheels. My new period wheels are wider and I need to raise the suspension slightly for the new ones - a job for later.

2) Handbrake linkage worn and needs replacing. Not sure how bad this is yet - may be a serious problem but will have a look at weekend.

3) Rear slave cylinder leaking. This is where I need help now.
I have stripped hub down as far as I can. Removed wet brake shoes, disconnected the brake pipe, removed rear gator, disconnected handbrake.
I am left with the old slave cylinder "loose" but I cannot work out how to remove it from the hub.
Help!!!! Gaydon looms close.

Steve
Steve 59 Frog

Cant you just take the back plate off. then remove the circlip holding the cylinder..
K Harris

There is what is called a C clip on the back of the cylinder the sits on the outside of the brade back plate. Older versions were removed by use of circlip pliers although later ones used a c clip that basically sprigs off.

The linkage generally wears at the connections that use pins. These can easily be drilled slightly larger and a new pin of apropriate size replaced.
Bob (robert) Midget Turbo

Steve,
Just had the same MOT failure reason. Bit the bullet and decided to replace all six wheel cylinders and the two sets of brakes shoes. Tried fitting new seals in the past but a waste of time and money. Had the same wet brake shoes on the rear, like you. Checked first that it was brake fluid and not oil leaking through the O ring and gasket on the half shaft. The cylinders fit through the back plate (from the brake shoe side) and are held in position by two bolts. One small (7/16th spanner?) and the other smaller (can't recall the size). Once you remove these, the cylinder can be removed.
Neil (July 58 standard froggie owner)


K series

I just ping the c-clip off with a screwdriver (mind your eyes if you're peering back there).

I wouldn't mind knowing if there's an approved method of re-fitting it though - much random prising and hitting with heavy objects has eventually been successful for me but all the while thinking there has to be a better way...
Jordan Gibson

It's a terrible thing when you get old and you get your front and back mixed up! Sorry Steve, I was describing the front brakes. The rear brakes on mine had no method of holding it to the back plate. Instead it fitted through the backplate from the front, the rubber boot was fitted and the banjo connection of the brake pipe refitted. There was no C clip. These are fitted to my midget but not to the Froggie.
K series

Quote: "on early models, swing the handbrake lever to clear the shoulder from the backplate and slide the cylinder forward. Pivot the cylinder to withdraw its rear end and slide it back and remove it from the bac..."
[I cant believe I just writ that to save you reading Haynes, it's obviously slotted to retain it in the backplate.]

Replacing is succinctly described in Haynes as "gotcha ya smug bugger"

ISH!

or reverse the process, he he he

I do hope this helps Steve

Worn linkages can sometimes be recovered by drilling out "tired out" clevis pin holes with the next size up.

Take knackered samples to your local "Acme Spares And Coffee Can Exhorst Shoppe" and see if they have slightly bigger ones.

We were speaking of this last night at the Friendly Green Giant when I was accused of gross butchery

My defence rested on the fact that the linkages are of agricultural or even architectural quality with plenty of spare metal

and doing it on Lara meant she passed her last MOT with very good braking

good luck
Bill

Aren't Frogeye brake cylinders supposed to slide in the backplate? Mine was upgraded to the later brakes, so I don't have to worry about that.

Unlike "normal" c-clips, these are meant to be pried OVER the top of the post. If you try to slide them into place from the side they will break. There exist special tools to help you break them, but who needs that? To remove, place the blade of a largish flat screwdriver into one of the gaps of the clip and pry it slightly out from the post and up out of the groove. The rest is easy. To re-install, either go down to the hardware store and buy a couple of the clips with the eyes for the pliers, or else try to find a spare c-clip or two in case you break one. Personally, with the later brakes, I pull the roll-pin out of the back of the cylinder, tap it to 10-32 or 12-32 threads (whichever is the one that just fits it), then screw it to the backplate. This makes it much easier to install the c-clip. Otherwise, clamping a pair of vise-grips (molegrips?) to the axle flange so the back of the upper jaw pushes against the cylinder will also work. Once again, slip one tip of the c-clip into the groove, then gently pry the remainder of the clip into place over the top of the post. It is easier to do it if you remove the bleed screw, but make sure you leave room for it.
David "Brakin some more" Lieb
David Lieb

Thanks for fantastic quick response.
I knew I was being stupid.

Slave cylinder came off just like Bill described (although I removed it from the front not the back??)
The reason I had not managed it earlier with endless wiggling was that the wheel hub was in a position where it blocked its final withdrawal movement, took car out of gear, turned the hub 1/8th of a turn which gave it a tiny bit more wriggle room and off it came!

Reassembly tommorow and then will then look at handbrake. I think he was saying its the linkage beneath the lever but need to check.
Thanks again and will keep you posted on progress.
Steve
Steve

I had forgotten how lucky the frogeye owners were to not have the dreaded circlip to fight! Should have known they were like my MGA cylinders!!
Bob (robert) Midget Turbo

K Series - your comment is worrying me now about leaking from o-rimg/half shaft gasket. I have fitted new slave but now notice wet oil still collects at the base of the hub.
Maybe the o-ring or the gasket is the problem. How do I check?
Any advice appreciated.
Steve
Steve 59 Frog

If I plan to replace O ring and gasket will I need to pull the bearings?
Steve
steve

no, just the brake drum
David Smith(davidDOTsmithATstonesDOTcom

Thanks David.

Hand brake linkage now being worked. Starting to worry about getting an MOT before Gaydon. Only garage slots locally are late next week so I will only have one chance....


Steve '59 1275 Frogeye

lots of opportunity for lost movement with 6 clevis pins in the system !
David Smith(davidDOTsmithATstonesDOTcom

I have gone away from using the dreaded C clip and gone with the old style circlip or external snap ring. Even on my MGB, turns a nightmare half day job inot a 5 seconds and done. One thing try to retain the very ting washer that is between the clip and the back plate, I think they're called wavely? washere or something I don't think they are available anymore, unless someone else knows differently.
Mike
MK Mike

>>> There exist special tools to help you break them... <<<

He he. I enjoyed that.

-:G:-
Gryf Ketcherside

http://www.moss-europe.co.uk/Shop/ViewProducts.aspx?PlateIndexID=1326#top

55 is an o-ring, this is a trivial change item.

53 is a rear seal for the hub, you will have to put the hub to get to this.
Will Munns

. . . . and get 54 - paper gasket - while you're about it. Have you had the half-shaft out?
Nick

Steve - a few posts back, K Series. mentioned checking whether the wet pool is back axle oil or brake fluid. Assume you've done this. If it's oil, you should be able to see or feel the weep between the half-shaft flange and the hub flange. But it sounds as if the MOT man spotted leaking brake fluid rather than oil; I suppose it's similar symptoms if it's dripping from the drum, though his nose ought to tell him.

If oil, O-ring and paper gasket may stop the weeping for the MOT, but the oil shouldn't have got that far. If you need to pull the hub, start looking for a big socket now (1 7/8"?). I borrowed one from Coggers. On the other hand, if you decide to do the temporary job for Gaydon, after cleaning everything up and sliding the half-shaft back in, get that wheel back on and the nuts up tight as quickly as you can, because the little c/sunk screws can't compress a frisky new o-ring much. Or drain a bit of oil out of the back axle before you put it all back together.

On the handbrake, make sure the rears are adjusted right up before you set the handbrake adjuster. I bought a new cable for Little Blue because the handbrake travel was too much, and then found it was exactly the same length as the old one. Problem was, I had tested it straight after building the axle up, without getting the shoes up nice and tight. Should have put the wheels back on and done a bit of braking to settle them in, then adjusted them up again.

Phew! I never say this much. I'd be grateful if someone who isn't an idiot could proof-read the above advice.
Nick

Thanks for advice Nick.
I am wondering if the oil now weeping from the paper gasket is just occurring because I took the wheel and drum off and its not clamped tight any more. As you say the little x/sunk screws don't do much.

I need to understand better what should be oily and what not. The half shaft that came out is wet with oil so maybe an oil seal is faulty.

I have however opted for the temporary repair due to time being short with new O ring and gasket - and just rushed down and fitted wheel based on your advice to clamp it tight.

There is however ANOTHER problem. Curved splines on half shaft! take a look at the pic!!!

Hopefully another 200 miles of gentle driving remain before it fails?

So retest MOT Thursday - fingers crossed (I have all the new handbrake linkage clevis pins to fit tonight)then gentle driving and sort out properly after Gayden.

Unless the advice is to replace this half shaft quickly????


Steve


Steve 59 Frog

Ordered new uprated halfshafts from Peter May.
Ouch!
Steve 59 Frog

Steve

It's not uncommon for ep90 to find its way past the gasket and o-ring once the wheels are removed, esp if:

- the diff's overfilled (very tempting to increase miles between checking!)

- the car is on a sideways slope, so oil from the diff basin easily flows down the axle tube

- you've given the hub a bit of grief removing the brake drum (as you say, the set-screws don't clamp tight compared with the wheel nuts.

With fluid in the drum/around the shoes, you need the sniff and feel (bewteen rubbed fingers) tests to separate brake fluid and ep90 (the latter smells like cat-p*ss, I am told!).

The 1/2 shaft travels through the bearing centre to the diff itself, so expect it to be oily through its length (normally just an even thin coat of the sticky ep stuff).

HTH

You 1/2 shaft should last with v gentle driving (very gentle); don't be tempted to fit them on the opposite side to 'undo' the distortion(!)

A
anthony

WOW,

Good Call, those up rated shafts are a bit priccy, but vary nice....I think you will be glad you did...after all that was more of a spiral then then a curve...lol.

Just one last thought....if you have an extra hour or so, try running some (parafin...I think thats what you guys call it) keroseen or diesal fuel thur the housing being that your doing almost a complete re-build...When I did mine several years ago, I was amazed at the amount of junk that came out (to the mob, dont worry I re-buried jimmy hoffa in my garden lol.)...I used a pump up garden sprayer, to really get the kerosen in there....probably not nessary, but Im sure glad I did it.


prop
Prop

So my decision to play safe and not blast a last few laps at Marham last month after my carb manifold problems were solved was probably the right decision. I suspect I would have needed a tow home if I had....
Steve 59 Frog

Peter May's halfshaft prices do make you say OUCH don't they?

But very worthwhile I think

I love mine (the purposeful way they poke out through the hole in the centre of my Rostyles, mean moody and blarry magnificent!)

Do you want to pick up an untwisted off side based 'steel wheel halfshaft' from the Ace this evening, for temporary use? My nearside one broke and the offside one was unmarked. Available as a longterm loan if it'll help you till the PM ones reach you. I'm putting it in the boot in a few minutes and you can either collect if you can or pick it up off one of the guys.
Bill

Bill that is a magnificent offer.
I have to refit the handbrake linkages tonight - If it all goes to plan I can pop down later - but wont risk it in the frog! Otherwise maybe Gary could collect and I will pick up from him in London tomorrow.

I will fit just prior to Gaydon if Peter May's don't arrive in time. Whichever you will get it back as soon as Peter May delivers!

Steve

PS Do they allow Vespa's at the Ace or should I park it round the corner :-)
Steve 59 Frog

It's in the boot now Steve

Sitthee later!
Bill

Not sure about Vespas Steve.
Drive in with it and if all the hairy bikers start hitting you, I'd imagine you can assunme that the answer is No.
G Lazarus

My thoughts exactly Gary ;-0

(even though it is has a 250cc, 4 stroke, fuel injected engine producing 22 hp....)

The Ace's biking heritage does not include scooters!



Steve 59 Frog

I second what Prop says about using parafin to clean out the diff and housing. I sent parafin through the system 7 times before it came out clean, when I changed my diff a couple of years back:

- fill it with parafin to normal level
- spin engine over at 2K rpm in 4th (axle on stands)
- drain and strain
- and repeat...

Steel, brass-looking swarf, black particles (gasket or goo), and more... only thing I didn't find was an old biro and 6p coin.

The above method is the only way to clean things after a diff disintegration, as the EP90 will allow particles to stick anywhere...

A
Anthony

Great advice Prop/Anthony.
A job for after Gayden though!
Thank you.
Steve
Steve 59 Frog

Nice looking boating lake you guys have in Twickers Steve

:-)

Good job you didnt use the Vespa though innit

Although the Ace isn't quite the last word in Rocker based violence these days

Nice to see you and the others last night
Bill

This thread was discussed between 08/05/2008 and 14/05/2008

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

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