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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - motor oil with zinc

I don't know if you're keeping up with the changes in oil formulations and their effect on our old cars. First they took the lead out of the gas and now this. They're making it harder to run our old cars.

The issue is zinc/phosporus which has been removed from modern oils, because it damages the catalytic converter and other emission equip. Car guys have been talking about this for a couple years now, because it's a big deal. Without the zinc, fast cam wear is the result. Last year I used Penzoil but I'm now finding it only has 800ppm (parts/million) zinc which is not enough. The recommended range is 1200-1400ppm. Valvoline VR-1 has that.


I've decided to go with Valvoline VR-1 20-50wt for my 948 Bugeye. It has enough zinc/phosphorus to protect the cam and tappets. I got some at Advanced Auto $3.89 qt in the US.

Here's some info but there's a lot more on line. Just do a search for "zinc in oil for older cars".

Tom

T E Lawton

MASCOT this month has an "informational" from Castrol about the use of modern oils in our cars

ISTR that they recommend that we always try to use "old=style" oil formulated so that it can deal with the way our engines have been developed as the newer oils are equipped to handle different manufacturing methods (clearances and tolerances) as well as modern engine metallurgy.

Thus they naturally advise using their old type 20/W50 for the older car.

makes sense to me

I use the similar product from Halfords or old style Duckhams but some Duckhams is "diesel" formulated which I don't use any more for the reasons Tom is relating, 'cos I find it hard to trust it.

Bill sdgpm

Here's the article

CASTROL CLASSIC OIL WITH ZDDP ANTI-WEAR ADDITIVE
In response to a question about oils which do not contain zinc dialkyldithiophosphate Castrol Technical Centre very kindly submitted the following article. Club editors are very welcome to reproduce it in their own newsletters but to preserve technical accuracy Castrol request that it should only be reproduced in whole.

Established in 1899, originally as C.C. Wakefield, Castrol launched their first lubricant for cars in 1906 and have been at the leading edge of lubrication technology ever since. With the introduction of low viscosity engine oils and changes to anti-wear additives in modern oils in recent years, owners of veteran, vintage and classics are asking whether modern oils are suitable for their cars.

Choosing the correct lubricant for your veteran, vintage or classic vehicle is essential to ensure peak running and maximum wear protection. The technology of older vehicle engines is very different from today's modern cars, so to assist owners, Castrol reintroduced their older brands with their ‘Classic Range’ in the early 1990s. These Classic oils are produced to original viscosities and importantly have retained the necessary levels of additives including anti-wear additive ZDDP (zinc dialkyldithiophosphate) appropriate for the technology of the engines they are designed for and to provide overall protection. The ZDDP levels are appropriate for engines that are in use or running-in, including those fitted with new or reconditioned components, where care should always be taken to follow the manufacturers’ recommendations when breaking in new components such as camshafts.

ZDDP additive provides a high level of anti-wear protection, but its phosphorus content is harmful to catalytic converters and other emission equipment fitted to many modern vehicles. It has therefore been reduced in the latest specification oils, designed for engines using the latest surface hardening technology and meeting the latest emission requirements for modern vehicles. These requirements also necessitate the use of other new emission equipment friendly additives not designed for use in veteran, vintage and classic car engines.

Oil formulations required for today’s modern vehicles are very different from formulations needed for older vehicles, having thinner viscosity and alternative additive technology as stated earlier, making them generally unsuitable for use in older engines. This has been done in conjunction with new vehicle manufacturers who have increased the surface hardening of engine components to receive maximum protection from the new additives. Oils for modern engines comply with the latest API ratings and are designed for modern engine technology with tight tolerances and compatibility with catalytic converters. A car engine of old design has very different characteristics, with cork, graphite or rope seals, low pressure cog driven oil pumps, wider oil-ways with greater dependence on ‘splash’ and ‘cling’ lubrication, lower revving with lesser machine tolerances. Such widely different specifications demand totally different lubricants of thicker viscosity with appropriate additives specially included for the work they have to do. Oils even of the same viscosity, supplied by different oil companies can have radically different formulations and thus have significantly different performance characteristics. Oil classifications are designated ‘S’ (for spark ignition petrol engines) and ‘C’ (for compression ignition diesel engines). Oil classifications for older petrol vehicles range from SA for vehicles from the turn of the last century to SH, to the late 1980s and early ‘90s.
• Inadequate anti-wear additive (ZDDP) and the oil film between moving parts breaks down prematurely, resulting in metal to metal contact and damage to reground or new engine components particularly on run-in.
• Inadequate detergent will result in gum and lacquer clinging to the hotter engine components.
• Too much detergent can cause a build-up of metallic ash in the combustion chambers of older engines. In older engines with traditionally high oil consumption, this will cause detonation and pinking. In older engines where the carbon has built up over a number of years the detergents can also have a scouring effect causing the carbon to flake off, blocking up oil galleries and spray jets. High levels of detergent will ‘wash’ traces of carbon from seals and gaskets, revealing oil leaks.
• Inadequate anti-oxidant and the oil will permanently thicken during high temperature motoring, with large amounts of gum and varnish clogging filters and piston rings.
• Inadequate corrosion inhibitors and engine internals become pitted with corrosion and rust from acids and water formed during combustion.
• Inadequate dispersing results in soot, wear metals and the by-products of combustion settling out in the sump to form a thick sludge that will block filters and oil ways.
• Inadequate pour point depressant and the oil ceases to flow at low temperatures, with excessive strain on the oil pump or in certain cases, oil starvation on start-up causing complete failure of the lubrication system.
For older vehicles; veteran, vintage and classic, use an oil of the correct viscosity as recommended by the vehicle manufacturer and shown in your vehicle’s handbook. Where your vehicle requires a specific viscosity such as 30, 40, 50 and 20w-50, avoid using inappropriate low viscosity engine lubricants designed for modern vehicles such as 0w, 5w, 10w, 15w.

Castrol’s vehicle lubrication records date back beyond the turn of the last century, detailing lubricant specifications for engine oils, gear oils and greases right through to today's classics, so to find out which Castrol grade is right for a vehicle, owners can simply refer to their vehicle handbook and select that grade from Castrol’s Classic range. Castrol’s Classic engine oils XL30, XXL40, GP50 and XL20w-50 are formulated to the original viscosities and contain the necessary levels of ZDDP anti-wear additive to provide appropriate protection for veteran, vintage and classic engines. The range is available throughout the UK via leading car specialists. For further information either telephone the Castrol Classic helpdesk on 01954 231668 or visit www.castrol.com/uk/classics
G Lazarus

Perhaps Im missing something, but who else sees the blantant flaw with this artical


My cataltic converter runs on engine EXHAUST not engine OIL,

If your choosing engine oil because it might be harmful or not to your CAT. converter, You got some serious problems, time for an engine rebuild if not new rings at miniume

I Just dont think you should be running engine oil down thur the exhaust manifold and out and into the cat converter then out, then into the muffler then exiting into exhaust tail pipe and finally making its way out into the envioment, but thats just my opinion...But then agian, I dont like new cars, or will ever own one. so maybe blowing oil out thur the exhaust is normal for new cars. What do I know.

Prop
Prop***The End in 2012

Not to forget oils from Penrite and Millers too....

As a preference, I use Millers products and have always had good results with them, the CVL and VSP fuel additives for example are superb.

http://www.millersoils.net/

Mark.
M T Boldry

If Miller Oils had written an article for me, they would probably have got in the magazine too.
We puts in wot we gets.
G Lazarus

Prop - they're not putting oil down the exhaust. Breather gasses get burnt and end up in the exhaust gas. Quantities are tiny, but chemical reactions with the cat only need tiny amounts. IMHO
Ant Allen

Prop as Ant says, small quantities of everything that goes through the engine arrives in your cat

if the wrong stuff gets in it will kill the cat dead

even just a short session of overfuelling will kill the cat which is why modern engines have the engine warning lamp that comes of if the lambda reads too little oxygen

Castrol's article simply tells us why the oils designed for use with newer designed engines are no good for my engine

And if Penrite or Millers would like to follow up in MASCOT I will be glad to read it
Bill sdgpm

Thanks for the info. I over dramatised the oil bit as you guessed, but I couldnt figure out how oil could effect a cat. convert. but that makes "some" scense, With cat. conv. costing easily $500 and up, I dont think Id want a cat THAT sensitive, it would seem just living in ok. and texas oil field country you'd be killing cats in no time due to oil resideules in the air or Los angles, because of the smog.

I noticed in the recent issue of Moss midget/sprite that they are selling a bottle of the "ZDDP" stuff, so that might be an option for the future.

Prop
Prop***The End in 2012

None of the local auto parts stores (Autozone, NAPA, or O'Reilly's) where i live seem to carry Castrol CLASSIC - just the regular stuff. So, that begs the question: what kind of older formuation 20-50W oil will work in our cars and where does one buy small quantities of it (one quart bottles or five quart jugs).

Glen
G. D. Phillips

Just watch for VR-1 to go on sale and buy a case.
Trevor Jessie

Thanks trevor,

I was just in one of the same auto stores today that G.D. mentioned and they never heard of Castrol CLASSIC, so was thinking the same thing in the back of the mind.

VR-1 is that castrol, I think I remember seeing that

prop
Prop***The End in 2012

Prop,

VR-1 is Valvoline.

Charley
C R Huff

moss has a zddp additive.
S.A. Jones

I'm not looking for a new job as an oil salesman, but I do think the subject of zinc/phosphorus in oil of older cars is important.

Here's a bit of Valvoline's sales literature re: the catalytic converter - "Valvoline uses an advanced zinc/phosphorus additive that keeps higher levels of phosphorus in the engine oil where it protects the engine, instead of poisoning the catalytic converter. Valvoline is the only brand offering this unique additive...".

Here's a link to Valvoline's VR-1 (racing) oils:

http://www.valvoline.com/pages/products/product_detail.asp?product=50


2008-003a.pdf


VR-1 Racing Motor Oil.pdf



I also read about Moss's ZDDPlus product($12US for 4 oz). Moss clearly says - "Not for use in cars with catalytic converters!"


Tom
T E Lawton

This thread was discussed between 05/03/2009 and 07/03/2009

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