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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Track Rod End - Help

I have looked at the archives on this subject but cannot find an answer.
My MkII midget has its original rack and new track rod ends. It has a Peter May 9" brake conversion.
My local garage has tried to adjust the tracking but even when the steering rack thread is fully wound into the track rod end, the tracking is still out. There is no adjustment left.
Incidentally as I drove the car back home the front tyres were screaming (depending on the tarmac surface). I guess this was down to the wrong wheel alignment.
What do I have to do?
Thanks,
Neil
Neil (K series)

On the racer we use rose joints for the TREs which necessitated shortening the threaded portions of the track arms either side by about 1/2".

Assuming you have the correct TREs for the rack this might be an option.
Deborah Evans

That is very strange Neil?? I have never heard of that before? are you sure you have connected the top trunion correctly? this can easily be reversed and will then not allow the tracking to be set correctly. the front wheels will also look to have too much positive camber.

Can you remove a front road wheel and ake a photo?
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Neil,

Is this the car you are building back up from boxes !

If so check you have the correct track rod ends and steering arms to suit the rack.

They changed with the Triumph rack. Easy to check the steering arms as the numbers are cast on them - check the Moss book for whats what.

R.
richard boobier

Also check you have the steering arms on the correct sides.
Deborah Evans

9" disc conversion, is that the one that requires spacers between the stubaxle and steering arm for disc clearance, if so what thickness spacer as that will move the track rod ends inwards by that amount and consume thread.
David Billington

You have given me a few checks to carry out and I will do them tomorrow and report back.
In the meantime I can say that I have checked the new track rod ends and the length of them are the same as the ones on my '71 Midget and '58 Frog.
Richard, the rack and steering arms are definately from the original car. The TRE are new.
I have attached a few photos which I took some months ago.




Neil (K series)

And another


Neil (K series)

And just one more


Neil (K series)

Dave,
Yes, you will see from the photos that spacers come with the kit. Might this be the problem? Deborah's suggestion of shortening the track arms might be answer? What do you think?
Neil
Neil (K series)

The spacers are too thick.
Brad (Sprite IV 1380)

Neil,

The only thing you can adjust on the spridget suspension geometry in the normal way is the toe in/out so I would be inclined to get a figure for what the toe out is at the moment and consider the situation from there, that figure will allow you to determine how much further the TRE need to move in. You will have more thread engagement than normal so removing some material from the inner end of the TRE is an option, this may also require shortening of the rods if the TRE then bottom out.
David Billington

I am sure someone else must have experienced this problem especially if they have upgraded their brakes. I will make a call to Peter May on Monday and ask their advice. As you will know, the steering at the moment is horrible. The whistling tyres are also a bit strange.
Neil (K series)

Brad,
The spacers came with the kit which PM have sold many sets of. I find it hard to belive that the spacers are the issue.
Neil (K series)

I made my own conversion & ended up with 4mm spacers, which then meant that the FL top link needed a wee grind for clearance.
I nearly went for a rose jointed TRE, check out an old thread 'drilling a steering arm'.
I did hack a bit off the old TRE's, but the problem was the steering rack bottomng out on the TRE thread, so the steering rack would also has to be chopped a tad.
Brad (Sprite IV 1380)

Neil if the spacers are required to clear the disc I am sure the track rods will need shortening by at least a similar amount to reinstate the "natural" geometry of the Spridget front end

Placing spacers there means the steering arms are that much closer to the car's centre and are bound to take the adjustment out of the TREs

could you reduce the thickness of the spacers to reduce the amount of track rod trimming you need?

I think the trusty hacksaw will find delicate work to do, very soon.
bill sdgpm

Oh & i put a chamfer on the inside on the disc which you don't have.
Brad (Sprite IV 1380)

Bill,
Using centre lock alloys doesn't leave much clearance between the TRE and the disc and therefore I believe the spacers are designed to provide that essential clearance. I am tending to think, as you do, that shortening the track rods might be the answer. Might be an angle grinder though rather than a hacksaw!!

Brad, presumably the chamfer was to clear the TRE?
Neil (K series)

angle grinder huh?

Obviously you saw what I wrote first before I opted for a more refined approach

I deleted angle grinder and put in hackysaw

LOL

I thought I was lowering the tone too much...whadda I know
bill sdgpm

Hacksaw's a great tool but I'm not quite so delicate. A useful modern tool methinks.
Neil (K series)

Hi Neil
Nice to see some one follow the same path as me...
Chopped mine down to fit with a hacksaw and a "tennon"? block
Regards
Tim
Re tracking you need 1mm toe in.
Tim Dalton

Hi Tim,
How are you? My car is running well but have to get this tracking sorted out quick time. Having thought about it overnight, surely if I shorten the steering rack to compensate for the spacers (brake conversion) I will also need to extend the thread on the rack aswell? Or am I being dense here?
Neil (K series)

Neil, i have just scanned this thread, but it is the same problem for both sides? or just one.
PeterJMoore

Peter,
I believe it applies to both sides. My limited understanding is that when the vehicle is tracked the steering wheel must be centred and with the wheels as forward facing as possible, the track rods on both sides are then adjusted. Therefore I need the ability to carry out this adjustment on both sides.
Neil
Neil (K series)

Unfortunately the majority of tyre places are lazy when it comes to tracking.

If it is at maximum adjustment on say the left side, you can wind it out a few turns and make up for the adjustment on the other side (that is providing it is only on the left hand side that maximum adjustment has been reached.

Steering wheel position is a by product and providing the car is tracking straight, you can then set your steering wheel to suit, hence the number of splines on the coloumn.

May be worth looking into what you have available on the other side.

Of course i may just be blowing smoke if both sides are infact at max.

I would not go straight into cutting your track rods as that could leave you very very stuck in the future.

It came from the factory with that rack and its lasted this many years in one piece, so i would definitely be looking elsewhere.

I wouldnt even bring the disc conversion into the equation. The spacing of a wheel outwards affects your track width, but the angles themselves do not change, they are just further out.The camber difference due to the spacing of the upper trunnion will be so minimal that it would not cause your issues either.

The spacers on the mounting points of the steering arm would not cause you to be at maximum adjustment on both sides.

All of these aspects together still would not cause the problem. I would put my neck out and say that it is down to the adjustment being maxxed out on one side and not on the other.

That would be my first port of call anyway. It is non-destructive but time consuming. Your time is cheaper than a new rack at a later date.

As this is the internet, i will state that this is purely opinion and I am open to being corrected.

Pete
PeterJMoore

I didn't use the spacers for the steering ram - frankly I didn't like the idea of using them: far worse IMO than the spacers to lower the spring pan.

Instead I used an angle-grinder to remove some of the FL top arm (as described in this thread).

I track all my cars using a simple 6' long (straight!) ally bar, using a simple visual check: when held against the tyres (hub centre, horiznontal) it's parallel with the body on one side and diverges slightly from the body (to rear) on other side.

Works very well, including my Honda with wishbones/mult-link front and rear; better than any laser-tracker at your local tyre place.

Bring your car along and we'll track in 10-15 mins.

A
Anthony Cutler

Peter,

No No No, the rack must be centred before tracking, if the rack is not centred you will get different toe out on the turns as you go from lock to lock and the car will never handle correctly. A lot of places make the mistake of only adjusting one side of the the vehicle and then moving the steering wheel. It does not work.
Mike
M J Pearson

Mike,
I think that is exactly what Pete is saying.
It is possible that adjustment has been made some time in the past at the TREs without first centering the track. It may have worked OK at the time but adding the spacers has now resulted in "bottoming out" the adjustment on one side. The solution is to check that the rack is centred first and then adjust tracking by correctly equalising the adjustment between the two TREs.

Guy
Guy Weller

Just to clarify. I meant cut down the track rod ends.
NOT the steering rack .
Tim Dalton

Just had a look at the Moss site and the early track rod ends look very different to the post '71 items. If anyone has access to both types could they do a quick compare for overall lenght.
Cheers
Tim
Tim Dalton

Also just to clarify folks, my car has been totally stripped with everything off. I put the steering rack back on and fitted new TRE's, therefore it is not a case, of one side having been adjusted more than the other. I am starting from scratch. I have just shortened the TRE's and things are looking better. Just need Anthony's diy tracking solution explained now. Anthony, are you there?
Neil (K series)

OK, update. I have cut 3mm off the end of the both TRE's and re-set the tracking visually. What a difference this has made. Car is driving now almost as it should do. Just needs that final check with the laser and I'll be sorted.
Neil
Neil (K series)

The spacers provided by Peter May are different for early and late racks. I don't have the measurments for each but will measure later what's on my car with the early rack. Late racks have a thicker spacer than early racks if I understand myself correctly (!)

You don't say if the trace rod end has bottomed out and won't thread onto the inner tie rod any further.

OR

If the track rod end is reached the last thread on the inner tie rod?

On my car (1st wire spoked wheel car to have Peter May's type 900 conversion)there are only a couple of threads on each side of the inner tie rod where the track rod end screws onto it.

I'd hazard a guess that your problem is the track rod end or a later thick spacer on an early rack.

A picture extracted from a book written to help enthusiasts modifying the Spridget (page 126)


Daniel Thirteen-Twelve

Neil if you were handy to the W Mids I'd lend you my optical track setting rig, or do it for you :o)

but I suspect you'd have no tread left if you came up to borrow it

I don't think Peter can have followed all of this thread or he wouldn't have been so "Dont do it" minded

In effect he is right about tracking places, most of them are lazier than me even

get the centralising by sighting the wheels (Ant's way, use a thin plank or lath)then when the final track adjusting is done set the steering wheel position

I'm sure you have done the right thing to both arms, the equally trimmed amount keeps it all central
bill sdgpm

My apologies,

I took a lot of the info above slightly different to intended, I have since realised I can get photos to show up. :D

So give me a second to catch up here. The rod end itself is too long, as such it is bottoming out on the rack threads before bottoming out against the inner most part of the TRE?

If so then i apologise, i took it that the suggestions were to start cutting the track rods themselves and not the rod ends.

Daniel is now asking what i shoudl have done to begin with.
PeterJMoore

I think that was the situation Peter

(not now though I think Neil is sorted by now)

I hope the new steering arm bolts are the same spec (or better than)as the factory ones though, there's a fair bit of stress on them I'd reckon and further out from the kingpin mounting points, maybe a tendency to move (stretchy maybe)
bill sdgpm

My early rack car has approx 3mm spacers and I believe late rack cars use 5mm spacers.

I use AN steering arm bolts.
Daniel Thirteen-Twelve

Yep, I'm sorted. Car is driving lubbly.
Neil (K series)

Hi Neil - I have exactly this problem at the moment - sorry to open up this old thread but I need some clarification -

The track rod end which screws onto the steering rack is what you cut 3 mm off - this I assume allows it to screw onto the rack by that 3mm -

My rack seems to be bottoming out inside the TRE therefore cutting the TRA won't help??

How do you know if the steering arms ar ethe right side????


Thanks

jon
J WHITE

Jon,
that will be the spacer thickness causing that.
Brad 1380

This thread was discussed between 27/03/2010 and 04/09/2010

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