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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Tyres... grrr

I've taken Props advice :O) and started a new thread for this one but I've copied over the relevant bits from the other...

Jue Williams wrote...
Well the shocks and anti roll bar bushes have been replaced (thanks very much Nick :O) and the handling is loads and loads better but... it's still a bit twitchy.

Everything on the suspension and steering has been checked and is perfect so we swapped the two front wheels over and tried Nicks (very low tread) front wheels and the handling was spot on so... my question is the tyres that are on Clarissa look like new with stacks of tread left and are Goodyear GT3 155/70s - does anyone have any experience/knowledge of these. I understand that they are pretty soft and we are as certain as we can be that the tyres are causing the problem. I am not aware that the car has been left standing on these tyres as I was told that she had been driven pretty much all the time but obviously I can only take the sellers word for that.

The guy I bought the car from said that the pressures should be 22psi front and 24 rear but that sounds incredibly low to me tbh. I've put them up to 28 tonight but it still hasn't made any difference to the handling. Do you suggest new front tyres (back don't seem to affect handling at all) and if so which harder compound brand is better to go for?

Cheers
Jue



Posted 05 June 2010 at 05:45:14 UK time
Prop, and his Black Hole midget

Jue

most likely the wheels got balanced and mounted at a modern shop.... MMmmm MMMmMMm Not good, the ol roystyle wheel is a 3 part welded wheel and is not balanced on the center hub, its centered on a differant concept, so the modern shop most likely thought the wheel was warped or bent and loaded up alot of weights ... you need to take to a hole in the wall hop thats really old and works with classic cars,,,it needs balanced with a finger do-dad

try starting another thread calling it (help balnace a rostyle wheel... the others can help you way more then I

Prop



Posted 05 June 2010 at 07:38:27 UK time
Nick Sayle, Herefordshire View vehicle profile

prop, they are minilites running Dunlop SP3's. When we fitted my Uniroyal 680's the problem went away.
Jue Williams

Right, well I've just got back from the tyre place and they have confirmed that the tyres were manufactured in 2003 so obviously old! Don't know if she has been standing but I've found a SORN from last year which was for 12 months from February though she was retaxed in September last year for 12 months. So it's possible she was off the road for 7 months last year and standing on these tyres.

Anyway, the tyre place said it is probably a combination of standing and the fact that they are 155/70/R13. They are saying that they should be 155/80/R13 but then they are questioning whether she is too low on the back for them to clear. I've also got another set of Rostyle rims with 165/70/R13 on (they look old tyres so I wouldn't use them but is this the right size I should be going for)? I really don't understand and I'm getting so confused :O(

As Nick said I'm currently on Minotaur minilites.

Also can you let me know what tyre pressures you all have as I'm not convinced about 22 front and 24 back and the garage haven't got any flaming reference.

Cheers
Confused of Shrewsbury
Jue Williams

I've settled on 26 front, 30 rear...it appears to be right for my 1500, without giving too harsh a ride.

Anything lower than that & the front sidewalls seem to want to roll under.

I run 155/80 x 13 tires on Minators, I upgraded my front anti sway bar to a 3/4" unit, now with less lean, I'm looking for more grip...so experimenting with pressures.
Dave Rhine ('78 1500)

Well the saga continues...


Just been to a different tyre place - thought it wouldn't hurt for a second opinion and they had her up on the ramp and looked properly. Despite the age of the tyres then said there wasn't anything looking at them that would give them concern, BUT they are questioning whether it's the wheels now rather than the tyres. They have got the standard studs from the Rostyles holding them on - are these ok or should they have been changed when the previous owner changed the wheels? Also said that there was play in the passenger side track rod and the king pin needs tightening and there is alot of axle grease by the rear passenger drum which they think is a seal that's gone.

Oh and now on my way back a bulb must have gone on the indicators and caused the fuse to blow so I'm off out again in a min to try and find which one it is and to see if Halfords have got any ;O)
Jue Williams

I've read that the standard studs are ok, really not sure, got standards on my 1500.

I do keep a close check on the nut torque & all's good for now.

I do think I'd feel more comfortable with longer studs, though!
Dave Rhine ('78 1500)

Thanks Dave. I'll have a nose about and see if you can get longer studs anyway.
Jue Williams

Maybe you mentioned it before but how is the toe in?

Flip
Flip Brühl 948 frog 59

Sorry Flip but I'm not quite sure what you mean.
Jue Williams

Jue

I am running on 155/80 R13s on Rostyles

GT3s too

I didn't like the 155/70 GT3s I was given but they were old too, not a good idea on a track day.

I am very happy with the /80s though, a good amount of grip and excellent road holding with my Frontline suspension.

I would love Minotaurs but it isnt going to happen :(

Flip is referring to the amount of turned in-ness at the front wheels, about 1/16" is fine on these cars. Ithelps with steering and straight line stability

Indicator bulb is 12v 21W single electrode type

Track days I tend to run 26 psi all round and maybe 24/26psi for road use on my 1275, yours may need slightly more

I'll look it up for you

bill sdgpm

Well

the Autocar 14 June 1975 1500 Midget road test and specs sheet says

I quote:

tyre pressures

F 22;R 24psi (normal driving)
F 24;R 26psi (high speed)
F 22;R 26psi (full load)

I think in your shoes I would use what they say

My tyres are Goodyear GT3s and were not ever so expensive either, about £30 each
bill sdgpm

Ooh that's interesting I really thought it sounded low but obviously not. Thanks Bill. I'm going to pop up to Halfords and get some fuses and some spare bulbs so I'll call in and reset the tyre pressures.

Can I ask why you didn't like the 70s? I know you were saying about them being old but do you think that's all it was?

Cheers
Jue Williams

No I also think I enjoy the slightly "more flexi" ride of the 80s

These suspensions werent designed for modern low profile tyres, I'm sure it shows with a road car

If it were a strictly track car I would go the other way, but she aint.



on old familiar picture of my baby

how do I know you won't like her?

:-)


bill sdgpm

I run my tires at 28 rear, 26 front.

As for Rostyles and wheel studs, the wheels can gradually distort over time and pull in slightly at the centers, causing the studs to bend inwards slightly. This is probably the result of being overtorqued by POs or garages with air wrenches. The studs are small at 3/16", and are a fine thread - meaning that it takes less torque to get the same "pull." Factory spec on the wheel nuts is 44 ft. lbs. as I recall.

My studs have been like this for a while, with the result that getting the brake drums off the rears is a bit of an exercise. I'd love to switch to alloys and ditch the worn-out (although nice-looking) Rostyles, but that would mean installing new (straight) studs all around.

So check your studs just for grins, and see if they're bent in toward the center of the wheel. One of the bummers here is that if you replace them with new studs, the nut tapers won't fit the countersinks on the wheels anymore... at least not until the new studs bend to match the old ones!

Cheers,

-:G:-
Gryf Ketcherside

Jue you could solve and prevent a lot of problems just by buying a owners Handbook at arond 6 or 7, widely available as it tells you almost everything you'll want to know ans the full and proper servive schedule - http://www9.mgcars.org.uk/cgi-bin/gen5?runprog=mgocregalia&a=&mode=search&cat=Handbooks

In it you will find correct tyre pressures 22 front, 24 rear (or 26 if fully loaded) - for sustained high speed 26, 3o, as someone said above - 28 you'll be hopping about a bit at the back

You'll aslo find in it the number of the bulb which Halfords also use so east to find, indicator bulb as spreviously said is a single wire 21w (12v as your car battery is 12v) and is numbered GLB 382

Tyre pressures and bulb number I got from my copy of the owners handbook in seconds you could do the same, you can also get a glovebox sized (yes I know) Workshop Manual covering maintenace and repair to keep on the parcel shelf or boot to also show to clueless garages (not that you should use them) - http://www9.mgcars.org.uk/cgi-bin/gen5?runprog=mgocregalia&id=043161275748379&mode=search&cat=Workshop%20Manuals%2C%20CD%20Roms

Prevoius wheels, assumimg they were slotted Rostyles should have had 145X80SR tyres with inner tubes, wrong wheel nuts could have possibly ovaled the wheel nut holes in the wheels making them no fun to drive

Do not use the Rostyles with 165/70 they will be very upset to steer and the wrong aspect ratio, see here for more tyre info http://www.yourdriving.co.uk/tips/19/how-to-read-the-information-on-your-tyre-wall/

Make sure all tyres places and garages only tighten the whel nuts to 45lbs/ft most will automatically try to go to 60 or 70lbs/ft which will at some stage take out a wheel nut stud (what the nut threads on to and holds it to the wheel)

See here , middle of page for info on toe-in, http://www.familycar.com/alignment.htm

Another thought is your steering wheel the original 16" or has it been swapped for something smaller or much smaller, if so try putting an original 16" back on, you can get them for about 12 I think, it will make road driving so much better

If you had the owners Handbook (you'll be picking up my hint by now) you'd also see that the front suspension needs greasing every 6 months (or 6,000 miles) as the Spridgets had an old design even when brand new, I also grease them just before an MOT to stop younger testers saying "there's slight play in the kingpins"

Stick with your present Minatur wheels and put on 155X70 (which are just about equivelent to 145X80)
I have Yokohama A Drive on mine and they are a great improvement to the tyres that came with the car which had almost full deapth of tread but unknown age


N Atkins

Smug mode on.....

Just got a text message from Jue saying she has had new Avons fitted. Problem gone!! The symptoms were exactly the same as when I bought my car. Any slight bump and the car would decide on what direction it though best. It prevented me from blinking when I drove it home the day I bought it. I take no credit for thinking out this one as I had to ask this BBS exactly the same questions a few months ago. I got every answer under the sun from U bolts on the rear axle, bearings, shocks etc etc. Jue's car now has new bushes and up rated front shocks, new oil in the gearbox and is currently zooming around the south Shropshire country side at 75mph, bet shes got that silly Midget grin on!!!
Nick Sayle

Nick, great news but I hope my post will still be of use to Jue and others (for road use)

Many think of uprating or changing dampers (shocks) instead of replacing the bushes first as these make all the difference (as Jue now knows)

She MUST take it easy on the tyres for the first 100 a good tyre place would have told her that, they could be greasy to start with

Then I'm sure she'll be smiling whilst doing 60 mph thro the lanes

N Atkins

Thanks everyone for your comments - they were really helpful. Bill I love your Midget - she does look more like a boy though ;O)

I do possess quite a collection now of Midget user/workshop manuals, but I've only had the car for a week and as yet haven't had time to read through them properly. As I needed to pose the question re the tyre problem I thought I would query the tyre pressures given to me by the previous owner at the same time. As Nick mentioned earlier, the new tyres have now resolved the twitch with the car. I had taken her to 75mph to determine whether the new tyres had resolved the problem and thankfully they have so I will settle back to a more sedentary pace for the next 90+ miles.

Thanks
Jue
Jue Williams

Bill your car looks pretty good to me. But i would say that because mine is a '65 bumperless Small Green Pleasure Machine too! BTW that thing at the back is not a massive boot rack, it's behind the car.

Bernie.


b higginson

That one is gorgeous too :D but looks more girly with the roof up plus the wires and different grill. Both beauties though!
Jue Williams

I'm very happy with my Avons. I've used them on track, in sprints, sun/rain/snow and very kind of condition, they seem to be a very good all round tyre (no pun intended).
Gary Lazarus

Jue. What are you inferring? I'm blokey bloke! The mesh grille doesn't show up very well on the computer. My wires are 5.1/2" with 175 full height tyres. They do catch the front inner arches on full bump or hard cornering though. I've got 30% uprated front shockers and an 11'16ths anti roll bar. next thing is going to be a pair of Peter May's 400lb front springs and if that doesn't cure it I'll flair the front arches a bit.

Bernie.
b higginson

Bernie,
How would you flare the arches? Mine make contact too so maybe now would be a good time to re-shape them before the new paint goes on.

If I can get a finish half as good as yours I will be pleased!

Guy
Guy Weller

Thanks Gary. From what I've felt with mine they are a huge huge huge improvement on the GT3s that I've taken off.

@ Bernie ha ha she is absolutely lovely :O) With her headlamps she almost reminds me of the more feminine looking Herald 1250. She just looks happy rather than more mean looking like Bills. Ok that's me sounding mad again lol!!

I still have no indicators! Hazards are working so bulbs are all ok and fuses all look ok - is this likely to point to the switch or something else? Just thought I'd mention it in case anyone has any ideas, but I'll go out there again tomorrow and have a proper look at the manuals in a bit ;O)

Cheers
Jue Williams

An often heard thing about cars with hazards and faulty indicators is that the hazard switch can get mucky contacts inside and divert the electrickery away from the indicators

Try waggling the hazard switch a few (or more) times to see if the contacts clear, the indicators dont use quite the same bits of wire ut of the switch as the hazards I understand

or see if you can borrow a switch from another similar car

You cant see the evil grin I have while scribing this

I bet Rach can imagine it

Lara a boy!

:-o

heaven help you me dear, she's as perfect a lassie as I ever met

And I loves every inch of her
bill sdgpm

try waggling it!!!! HAHAHAH!!! that's so Midget owner!!!
Nick Sayle

Trade secret Nick

often worked when all else failed when I were in t'AA
bill sdgpm

There is NO WAY Lara can be ANYTHING but a girly - after all - she looks a girly (driven by a girly!) on that photo you gave me that's adorning my top cupboards, safely away from car parts ;)!

You didn't say about your steering wheel size - it does make a difference.

Yes, you want 2psi higher behind than infront, I run mine at 26/28 - however, I'd probably drop them if I was doing lots of slow driving, and, I like a bit of twitch.

It's a nice day tomorrow - or a miserable day - would suggest that you read through all the manuals you have - they are really the best way to get the knowledge, and, at the end of it - you can safely ignore Prop :) After all, if you take HIS advice - you'll end up with the most tasteless, ghastly wheels EVER!
rachmacb

Now in defense of Prop, I did see a set of wheels like that on a Corvette back in the day...looked good at the time...but, back then, the smoker I drank, the player I got!

And yes, Rach, I like a bit of twitch too...

Dave ;)
Dave Rhine ('78 1500)

Rach.>>I'd probably drop them if I was doing lots of slow driving<<. Ahem!

Dave. That's one great Joe Walsh album.

Guy. I haven't figured out yet how I would do it as the tyres will touch the inner arches if I come to a strong dip in the road even in a straight line, so it will mean that I will have to take off the outer wings first. It's the side stiffener on the threepenny bit inner that the tyres hit, so I'd have to find a way of raising them and then flaring the outer wings. I did my rears by using Ford Fiesta mk1 rear arch repair panels. I cut out the square arch, welded in the panels and welded in the inner arch, then blended it all in with a skim of filler. I hope I don't have to do any of it at the front because getting all the panel gaps right was a real pain.
BTW. I can confirm that Bill's indicator/hazard method works. I did it yesterday on my mate's 1500.
b higginson

Bernie, That wheel contact sounds a bit worse than mine. As far as I can tell mine are just touching the edge of the outer wheel arch flange. Its a combination of lowered suspension 165 section tyres and the fact that I have to use a slight spacer to get my Cosmic wheels to clear the TRE ball joint.

In your case, it wouldn't be hard to remove the inner arch stiffener completely and fabricate a replacement flange to go around the top side of the threepenny bit bit.

You might still need to flare the outer though.
Guy Weller

Guy. I saw a car at the NEC on the MASC stand a couple of years ago which had flared front arches. I spoke to the owner and he'd done it with a hammer and dolly, first bending out the return lip and working it until he had the required clearance then smoothing it out with filler before painting it. I don't remember his name, but it was a nice job. It was a dark blue car as I remember. He was a MASC member so he may be on the BBS.
I hope that the Peter May springs are going to cure my problem as they did for my freind Les Robinson's mk2 Sprite.

Bernie.
b higginson

Sorry just reread me last post and it reads backwards - this blasted keyboard just can't type properly, or spell

What I meant to say was - most people think about changing their dampers and forget about chaning the bushes when on a lot of cars just changing the bushes is more effective and makes more sense (and economically)
N Atkins

I am also looking for Tyres. I am thinking of getting the non wire knockoff wheel from Moss (not a wire wheel but mounts on the knock off hub extensions).

I don't know how wide those wheels are but they are 13" inch. Does anyone know how wide that wheel is?

I am looking for a Tyre that would be good for autocross (high performance - very strong side wall, low profile).

Does anyone have a recommendation? the catalog says that it is only for round wheel arch cars. I don't understand why that would be unless they are wider than the stock wheels. I have a round wheel arch 73 car.

Rebecca
R Harvey

This thread was discussed between 05/06/2010 and 07/06/2010

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

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