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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Which Gearbox

Ok, Ok, I know this ol' chestnut has been talked over and over...
But here's the position I find myself in..
I have a GAN4 midget undergoing pretty extensive restoration (currently on its side in my garage!).
Was supplied with rib case gearbox out of the car.
DPO commented that the gearbox jammed in first gear on the cars last drive..
What should I do?
Get the rib case rebuilt or do a type 9 5 speed conversion? Given the car is in bits either choice is doable. However, what I don't want is to be sitting in the rebuilt car and think "I wish I'd gone with the 5 speed".
I am also wondering about the cost implications..
Comparisons between the costs of rebuilding the ribcase with installing a type 9 would be interesting if anyone has any views?
Cheers
Tim
T Dafforn

I'd take a look at the box and find the reason for the jam. I've only every rebuilt the box myself, so have no idea on costs for 3rd-party rebuild. I think a re-con might be cheaper.

Having said that, I changed to 5-spd on my Aseries in 1998 and it transformed the car. Would not want to go back to 4 speeds...

A
Anthony Cutler

Go 5 speed, then you can drive the car how you want & not around the chocolate gearbox.
Brad (Sprite IV 1380)

http://www.spritespot.com/gallery/view_photo.php?set_albumName=toomanyspridgets&id=first_good

...and...

http://www.spritespot.com/gallery/view_photo.php?set_albumName=toomanyspridgets&id=first_jammed

...show (by a little cheating on my part to make the point) what is happening 'to your balls'. The trick seems to be to either add a washer/spacer to keep your balls from flopping out or even to add a grubscrew to the tail of the gearbox to keep the assembly from moving far enough back for your balls to protrude.
rob multi-sheds thomas

hi Tim
all our cars are all things to us all. Myself I wanted to keep my GAN4 as close to original spec as I could, and for that I know I have to suffer the drawbacks of the 4 speed ribcase 'box. If you want it rebuilt I can recommend Klassik Transmissions near Wolverhampton. Ken Evans is a real gent and rebuilt mine for £250. He used to build them for the MGOC apparently
David Cox

another endorsement for Ken at Klassik Trans - he does my race gearboxes and they don't give problems, if they do he fixes them. He's very reasonably-priced too.
David Smith

Putting a type 9 in my car is by far and away the single best mod ever.
Shawn

Type 9 is significantly more expensive than a ribcase rebuild if you're going down the Frontline route. I'd like a 5 speed but I've not been fully sold on the idea of them in other ways (weight, etc), and have thrown money at other bits of the car instead. In an ideal world I'd have one as I have had the 'stuck' first gear one too many times (once), and the 'popping out of second' one too many times (every rebuild/engine out eventually). But then I have near on 100bhp coming through that box so it's not surprising.

For a standard engine I don't think a 5 speed is entirely necessary for durability but it definitely is a nice idea for cruising.

Ken at Klassik is brilliant and makes brilliant brilliant boxes. My box was rebuilt by him and is just lovely.
Rich Amos

having damaged two type 9s by maltreatment I probably ought to vote for a Toyota or Datsun
but since these boxes are cast out of "unobtainatreasonablepriceium" I's still a type 9 fan

but be quick

eBay type 9s have risen from £30 -£50 last year to an average £90 and still at that price an unknown quality.

overhaulment may still be in the offing when you get one.
c £300 or more maybe, parts alone for overhaul about £130 on eBay. Bearings and gaskets, gear-sets extra as you'd expect

but


fifth speed cruising at close to upper 90s where legal (where?) and over the ton when I want to

I wouldnt go back to a four speeder
bill sdgpm

I think i sand alone in this

Stay with the ribcase!!

A good ribcase is so sweet to drive and can handle all the street power thrown on them by an a-series (sure you can break annything)

With the type 9 you never get the gearstick in the original position witch is the best to me.
And having to cut in the body never seemd like a good idea (no mather how you strengthen it)

sure you don't get the super mach 1 cruising ability but that isn't legal anny way.
And her we have so mutch speed camera's and traficjams .....
Onno Könemann

I too like my type 9.
BUT... a decent ribcase makes a good box too - just without that extra gear. If you are not doing long distances or lots of motorway roads then there is nothing at all wrong with sticking with your ribcase box.
And as to sticking - if the first gear problem is all that is wrong with it this can be repaired in about 15 minutes for the cost of a washer. You fit a washer on the selector shaft, between the 1st/ 2nd selector fork and the casing. I used a copper washer and the thickness was just right to prevent the selector moving to far rearwards, preventing the balls from popping out! (as in Rob's second linked photo).

Simple!

Guy
Onno is not alone!


Guy Weller

Who says you cant get the gear stick in the original position on a type 9 (have a short remote fitted an no one will ever know)


Rob Newt

I have a foot in both camps too - we have both ribacge and 5-speed in our fleet. It depends where and how you want to use it. The ribcage box has nice ratios and doesn't involve chopping the tunnel or cross member (which, given the structure of a Midget, reduce the car's torsional strength significantly) However, it lacks 5th gear and is weak - especially in first.

Our ribcage car gets tedious on motorways, even the UK at 70 mph let alone European ones with higher limits. Off the motorways, it is in its element and a 5th gear would not add anywhere near as much benefit.

As for the strength, it had a rebuilt box when we bought it and since then has done (apart from 000's of touring miles) 5 California Cups (two of them driven by two people), a couple of sprints and a dozen other local gymkhanas (vigorously driven) and first gear is starting to growl. Which is better than I expected but not like, say, my MGB which has had the same gearbox for 30 years at a much higher annual workrate (thought there were some years out for rebuilding its body after end over end in a rallysprint ... )
Paul Walbran

Well, my opinion having driven many different types....

My first choice would be stick to the Ribcase....

End of story... :-)




BUT

IF I were to go to a 5 speed (which I wouldn't, then the Toyota box would be my choice.

The Sierra box has an almost redundant 1st gear, making it effectively a 4 speed anyway and if that is the case, why not use a Bullet or Rocket box with 2.9:1 or even a 2.5:1 first gear and a bomb proof box...!

If easier cruising is what you are looking for, fit the 3.7:1 diff or a 3.5:1 if you can find one.

Mark.
M T Boldry

A 3.5 sold in the classifieds last week for £100
Dave O'Neill 2

"The Sierra box has an almost redundant 1st gear" - not so on Hardnott!
Guy Weller

I went with a datsun tranny years ago. Love it. I get 45 MPG now on the highway
S.A. Jones

Guy, Hardnot and I'll bet you could do a little ploughing or harrowing too if need be with a first that low....

BUT it appears to me that most folk want the five speed for the overdrive 5th, so why bother....

Yes they are appear to be a stronger box, but as Bill has mentioned (and I'll bet he's not the first), the Sierra box's are starting to show signs of failure and they are not 'two a penny' now are they....

The Ribcase, if in good condition is a joy to drive with lovely spaced ratios, requires NO structual weakening to the shell inorder to fit it and is still available in complete form plus you can get all of the bits to overhaul them.

No contest really is there.... ;-)

Mark.
M T Boldry

Quite right Mark, you will see that I too was favouring keeping the ribcase - despite liking my type 9, and making plenty of use of first gear!
Guy Weller

I use 1st gear a lot with my T9 because i can, with the rib case if i pulled away in 1st to 6K then the gearbox would die, quickly.
To get a similar drivers experiance to a ribcase with a T9, don't use 1st or 5th gear, don't pull away from junctions quickly or go above 70mph. Place a steel box on the passengers seat half full of loose spanners & pretend the jangling racket comes from your ribcase for originalities sake.
Saying all that the ribcase did have a better gear change, but i wouldn't want it back.
Brad (Sprite IV 1380)

Mark raises an excellent point - you can gat bits for the ribcage, but for Datsun, Toyota etc they are of an age where new parts are not so readily available.

Paul Walbran

the ribcase still keeps on getting better; uprated layshafts and heavy duty bearings for example, together with careful assembly by somebody who both knows what he's doing and cares about his work will produce an excellent box in no way comparable to Brad's description IMO.
David Smith

When i changed to a T9 years ago, repro ribcase boxes were pretty bad, maybe things have got better now, but i'm happy with a 5th gear & synchro on 1st.
Brad (Sprite IV 1380)

to echo David's comment << careful assembly by someone who both knows what he is doing and cares about his work >> ...that'll be Ken over at Klassik Transmissions, then...
David Cox

wow!
A lot of opinions..
I guess what I really want I cannot have..
e.g. a gear change with a feel like the 2000e 'box in my lotus elan, but with 5 speeds, for the price of a recon ribcase..

couple of questions though..
I have marina 1275 engine, can I use the marina single rail gearbox in place of the ribcase?
If I go the type9 route, who makes the best and most reasonably priced conversion kit?

cheers
tim
T Dafforn

Tim,
i can give you the diagram for the crossmember plate, then you only need a bellhousing adapter to be most of the way there.
Brad (Sprite IV 1380)

Tim, yes you can use the Marina / Ital box, and by association the 4+ overdrive box from a late Spitfire too.
David Smith

Does the triumph OD box really fit in the midget?
tim
T Dafforn

jiha! i am not alone in my praise of the ribcase!

if i am correct the marina used the th!%%& gearbox.
so that backplate opens up some other posibility's

like the OD box witch fits with a "bit of bashing"
Onno Könemann

Tim

The overdrive does fir in a Midget and there is an example not too far from you :)

Carl
C Bintcliffe

T9 siera 5 box is, despite it being quite heavy, a very good/strong box.
The ratios were good in combination with my 1500 engine and 3.9 diff.
With the Kseries the first gear is useless.
Now i have a 240bhp strong type 9 from BHG with the ratios changed and its brilliant!!!
Its defenetly worth it!!

But it depends what Tim is planning to do with his midget.

How can i put this as friendly as possible... ribcases are for the pollish boys with their picknicbasket on their cars.
Thats how you can tell the boys from the men... men have a 5 speed!

LOL


Arie de Best

I too have a BGH box (with long first) a and it is great. In fact the gearchange has always been excellent on it even from the scrappies before BGH had it. It feels like the 2000E box you mention Tim, in fact isn't that what it is based on? Not sure but it reminds me of all the old rally escorts from the 70's.

BUT would I go for the conversion again? Not sure, would depend on what I wanted it for. I got mine for Sprints and hillclimbs so I could be sure I would have a box to get home with. But now I trailer it to events it is just another 15kgs or so I have to drag up the hills. I have never used 5th on even the fastest of Sprints yet, even with a 4.5 diff. The best Midget in the championship used to keep blowing its SCCR box so it now has a std ribcase and has managed a full season with no probs. Very powerful car as well.

I drove a standard Midget the other week and I just loved the gearbox, the first thing I noticed was the excellent ratios and the nice change. First never seems to be a problem in the ones I have driven.

Unless I was going for mega power and lots of motorway work I would stick with the ribcase and a 3.9 diff.


John Payne

Even after having "issues" with my type 9s I have to say there is nothing I actually miss about the old ribcase box except the bloody racket it used to throw out at me

And this is essentially the gearbox I learned to drive with in dad's old A35 (ratios not withstanding)

no

I'm happy with five Ford gears in a silky smooth gearchange, that delivers the full potential of my engine quietly without fuss (and yes I use all five gears in traffic and along the highways and byways)

the only things wrong with mine were caused by believing that Loctite would work on chromed cap head screws

it doesnt!

screws came loose

and oil drained out

Ford box for me ta


bill sdgpm

Might go for one of those release bearing jobbies (?!) on mine Bill. I'll put it on the list for next winter - it's sorting rust out this year!!

It really is a tough decision on the box front for me. Having said all that above no doubt I would miss mine if I went back!!
John Payne

Just had a look at the BGH site, now i'm wondering what ratio's i have?

http://bghgeartech.co.uk/html/5_speed.html
Brad (Sprite IV 1380)

Brad, get "how to powertune midget and sprite" from Daniël Stappleton and its all in there!!
The last version aka "the book of dark powers"(the cover is black you see) ;)
Your wife can get you one as a christmas present, beats getting socks veery year doesnt it? LOL
Arie de Best

Arie,
i'm pretty sure my wife has a book called 'the big black book of dark powers' already, no sign of a gearbox in it though.
Brad (Sprite IV 1380)

hi all,
I think one of you hit the problem on the head!
it depends what I want to do with the car?
Currently I haven't worked it out.
I am currently welding up the various bits that have disolved, and the car is completely stripped.
So I have a blank canvus.
I do know what it won't be, and thats a concours car.
I am not dedicated enough for that.
So that leaves a non-concours pic-nic car (my wifes choice), Or a stripped back thrash through the contryside car (perhaps with some regularity rallies thrown in!), my choice.
The only problem I have with the later is that I have an Elan +2 in the next door garage that I could sell and just buy a run down 2 seater Elan which would be pretty good for B road bashing (Although oddly I dont like the 2 seater elan shape).
So, if I was to ignore the elan option (in fact I might sell the elan and buy lotus 11 replica kit from Westfield! http://www.madabout-kitcars.com/pictures/246/Westfield+Sports+Cars+Ltd_Westfield+Eleven)
Then I guess I want a fast road midget probably initially using the marina A-series that would make me smile..
Therefore I had been thinking of working towards (and feel absolutely free to critisise):
Marina engine with Peter Burgess head, not sure which one (current head is not unleaded converted). Carburation by single HIF or DCOE/DHLA. uprated exhaust manifold.
Gearbox (not sure?)
Frontline front suspension conversion.
and Perhaps some better rear axle location.
any thoughts?
Cheers
tim

PS Carl, Sorry I havn't got back to you (crazy busy!). Are you around during Xmas?
T Dafforn

Tim, worth noting that you can have best of both worlds and have a (visually speaking, at least) Picnic Midget which goes like a bat out of hell when you want it to!

That's what's great about Midgets!
Rich Amos

Quaiffe 6-speed sequential gearbox any one
l snowdon

Haha! £4.5k anyone?
Rich Amos

wow

I have no doubt that BGH are the boys

but bloomin' blimey have you seen the prices...

bill sdgpm

When I was at BGH dropping my box off they mentioned how few Midget customers they'd had after Daniels write up! I had to point out that some of their gearboxes cost more than most of our cars!!

They are good though and I would definately recommend the long 1st box. Its one of the cheapest ones they do and it makes the ratios much better without the expense of a full close ratio one.
John Payne

Rob Newt

can you pull of th leather cover and have just the rubber ring? around it

that is the "early" look i want and have never seen with a 5 speed

but it is just one of the smal things i have against 5 speeds ;)

Onno Könemann

Their cheapest box cost more than six LARAs

(initial purchase only of course!)

wish I could afford it though

bill sdgpm

Interesting thread this one!

I have a 1098 with 4 speed ribcage, great fun on A-roads but a pain on motorways where you just want to change up to drop the revs and quieten everything down. But a lovely gearchange and it fits the character of the car.

I had a 1380 midget with a 5 speed and it made the whole car feel more modern, but it also made you want to drive like a madman to max revs in every gear and to overtake every white van man on the motorway at silly speeds - great fun though!

Now I have a 1.8 k-series with a 5-speed, which I will be interested to compare when its on the road!

But after driving spitfires and bgt's as well as the midgets, my ideal setup would be a tuned 1275 engine with 1 3/4 hif44 carb and a spitfire overdrive box with the switch on the gearknob. That would be great in my opinion. BUT its only my opinion!
John Collins

John,
i've got to agree with your comments about a 1380 with a 5 speed box; it goes pretty quick on A/B roads too.
Brad (Sprite IV 1380)

John,
I like the cut of you jib!
Now the question is, will the gear stick from the single rail triumph box be in the correct place?
Cheers
Tim
T Dafforn

Onno
There is no reason why you cant have just the rubber gaitor showing on a short remote type 9, one thing I will say every 5 speed conversion I have looked at all seem to exit from the tunnel at a slightly different place,due to the holes were originaly cut by hand during manufacture so be aware of this.
Rob Newt

I've got a 3.5 diff in mine. 3500rpm at 70mph make motorway driving very pleasant. Upgraded engine compensates for loss of acceleration which wouldotherwise be experienced. such an easy straightforward conversion to do as well.
Geoff Mears (1970 Midget)

Hi Tim

I am around over xmas and I even hope to be able to do a little work on my car! Your plans for your car sound good and I think you will find it great fun to drive.
Give me a ring, we should be able to sort something out Cheers Carl
C Bintcliffe

Slight deviation from the original topic here, but mention has been made of Marina boxes, which I believe is the standard box in the 1500.

As I've never had the privilege of driving an 'A' series Spridget and am relegated to a 1500 which I like due to the low down torque. Does anyone else with a 1500 share my opinion that the gear ratios in the standard box are badly spaced and and second and third far too low ( and that's with a 3.7 differential) The intermediate gears simply get the car rolling, all the rest of the work is done in fourth which makes up for the deficiencies of the lower gears by being able to poodle along in 30mph areas with ease, but by far the best gear for excellerating and overtaking.

Perhaps fourth is a little on the low side as well?

Dave
Penwithian

Penwithian

I agree with your comments on the ratios in the 1500 gearbox.

Moto build used to do a close ratio version - do n't know whether they stilla round or do them anymore. Think the chap that did them was Rae Davis?

Les
l snowdon

Does n't Groovy Gorves (or something like that) do uprated 1500 midget gearboxes for A-series racers?
l snowdon

Dave (Penwithian)

4 speed boxes like the Triumph and A series box have 4th as a direct drive, ie the input shaft is connected to the output (mainshaft) 1:1, so if you have an issue with the gearing in 4th that will be down to your final drive ratio. Gearboxes such as the type 9 have an overdrive 5th and 4th is straight through as it derives from the earlier Ford 4 speed box with direct drive 4th, the 5th gear being an add on effectively.
David Billington

Chris Groves does a SCCR dog engagement racing gearbox based on the Triumph box - if fitted with his bellhousing kit it will fit an A series engine. Chris guarantees the boxes are unbreakable so long as you return them to him for a rebuild every season. There have however allegedly been some issues with gear selection on some boxes this year.
James Bilsland

I have been running the Datsun 5 speed for the last 50,000 miles. It has been rebuilt 3 times in this period, mainly due to synchronizing problems in 2nd gear and tailshaft bushing wear.

Apart from keeping up with traffic on 75 MPH limited highways, I especially appreciate the elimination of the carbon release bearing.

If I had to do it over, I might try lowering the rear end ratio to 3.7 and sticking with the ribcase in spite of its weak clutch release configuration. Maybe next time the Datsun comes around for a rebuild, I will give that a try.
Glenn Mallory

My Midget has the ribcase four speed transmission, and I love the feel of the gear change. Coupled to a 3.909:1 rear axle, it revs a bit on the highway, but not to the point that it becomes overly obtrusive. A future change to a 3.701:1 Crownwheel and Pinion gearset that I have in the garage will reduce this somewhat. The only headache is that ancient non-synchro first gear.
Stephen Strange

This thread was discussed between 15/12/2009 and 21/12/2009

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

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