MG-Cars.net

Welcome to our resource for MG Car Information.

Recommendations

Parts

MG parts spares and accessories are available for MG T Series (TA, MG TB, MG TC, MG TD, MG TF), Magnette, MGA, Twin cam, MGB, MGBGT, MGC, MGC GT, MG Midget, Sprite and other MG models from British car spares company LBCarCo.

MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Wire Wheels - Part 1

I have caught up with my summer jobs, so now have some time to do some larger jobs on the car. I have been going to change over to wire wheels for the longest time and this weekend looks like a good time toget started.
I was going to do the front wheels this weekend, then leave the diff and rear to do the next free time.
How long should it take to convert the front wheels to wire wheels and is their anything else I should do while I am there.
Thanks,
Allan

73 midget 1275
ADJ Jacks

Alan, the first rule of MG maintenance is to allow twice the time you think for a project and also figure about half the time you'll run over that. ;-)
Let's see, for the front conversion you just need to remove the brake calipers and hang them out of the way, remove the dust cap, retaining nut on the spindle and slide the hub assembly off. Slide the new splined hub on the spindle, install the nut and locking pin and then the dust cap. That's not as easy on the splined hub as it's recessed, but a piece of exhaust tubing the right size to just contact the lip on the cap is a pretty good driving tool for it. Then reinstall the calipers and you're done. Don't even have to bleed the brakes. Bending down the ears on the bolt retainer for the caliper bolts and installing the pin and cap on the hub are probably the worst part of the job. Figure about 1 hour per side. Make sure you get the correct hub on the correct side, if you don't the knock offs will come loose with not so good results. Left hand knock off threads on the right side of the car, right hand threads on the left side.
When you do the rear then it's a bit more complicated having to change out the entire axle and bleed the brakes, but still about 4 to 5 hours should do.
Bill Young

Unless you've already rebuilt the front end, you'll want to check the lower trunnions for excessive play. Realize that wear at these locations can lead to a full front-end rebuild. As you may know, wear in the threaded sleeves in the A-arms usually means new A-arms.

Also, check all the rubber bushes up there for wear, and consider swapping them out for polyurethane.

Lastly, check the shocks for proper damping, and for loose (i.e., fore/aft) movement of the lever arms. If they're shot, uprated replacements can make a noticeable difference.

Cheers,

-:G:-
Gryf Ketcherside

don't forget on the front the discs are different so fit new discs already bolted up to the splined hubs. And with new discs you want new pads too. Afterwards check the clearance between tyre and flexi hose on full lock left and right, as the wheel sits in a slightly different place.
David Smith

And don't get rid of the parts you took off. You will want them in a couple years to go back to the superior technology and performance of the disk wheels.

BTW, there is a hole through the side of the splines in order to get the cotter pin into the spindle.
David "converted from wires to disks" Lieb
David Lieb

I was wondering how long it would be before I got the "Your crazy" I was looking at the Moss Catalog this morning and looking at the Minilite copies and thinking how they would look. Somebody else on the board said they made quite a difference because of being so light.
I will definitely keep the parts, I have had them in my garage for the last year and a half.
I have to say I like the look of them and I know I will never get an E-Type with them, so this is the best I can do.
Thanks for all the info, you guys are great.
ADJ Jacks

Wire wheels are light. Wire wheel hubs are NOT light. Generally speaking, your unsprung weight will go up with wire wheels. The stock wire wheels are narrow, expensive, require knowledgeable people to mount and balance tires (hard to find these days), go out of true, are hard to clean, etc. MG realized all this back in the days of the TC and therefore the TD came with disk wheels. The US market kicked up such a fuss that they went to offering either/or.

The hub splines wear out and the hubs should be replaced whenever the rims are. I trust you are using all new rims and hubs? I was just looking at the price of new rims and hubs on the Moss site and I am glad that I went to disks.

Take a look at the Superlite alloys, too.
David "not wired" Lieb
David Lieb

Oh dear, same old same old.

<<Wire wheel hubs are NOT light. Generally speaking, your unsprung weight will go up with wire wheels.>>

Spridget steel wheel hubs are EVEN MORE NOT light than wire wheel hubs. Look at the massive cast iron 'top hat' centre section! Factually speaking, the unsprung weight could actually be lower with wire wheels, at the front anyway.** And at the rear, the increase expressed as a percentage of total unsprung weight must be very small.

As has been noted on this BBS by respected automotive historian and author Andrew Noakes (I'm no Raj Persaud - I say when I'm nicking stuff), MG did not change the TD to steel wheels because they were better, only because they were cheaper. (A. Noakes: General archive 19 October 2003).

Of course, when people fit wide, sticky modern radials, all the car's suspension components get wildly over-stressed, not just the much-maligned wire wheels.

TC

** I cannot give comparative figures because I put the steel wheel hubs onto my Midget in order to fit wider, stickier tyres. I also do autotests.

The wire wheel hub, with bearings and spacer, bolted to a fairly new disc, plus the spinner, weighs 4.8 Kg in toto (though I've a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore...).

Anyone got a comparable steel wheel hub to weigh?
Tom Coulthard

No, my hubs are otherwise occupied ;-), nor do I have an appropriate means to weigh them. AND, when I refer to the hubs, I am including the hub to the rim (what the inner end of the spokes attach to), not an insignificant mass. Therefore, let us have some numbers for everything from the bearings out to the rim for both.

You did not bother to address the issues with finding someone competent to mount and balance those wire wheels, nor the fact that the wires are narrower than the stock disk wheels on Allan's 73 Midget, nor any of my other contentions.

While I can accept that disk wheels are cheaper to install than wires, I doubt that price was the only consideration, especially since MG was still a little self-guided in those happy halcyon days and still purported to believe in "safety fast" rather than "safety cheap". History, like statistics, can be bent to whatever whim you happen to espouse. Mr Noakes' position does not cover why the reversal with the accompanying expense of supporting both systems very well...

Shall we discuss the costs of replacing those wire wheels with new rims and hubs vs. the cost of a new set of alloys? The joys of finding inner tubes for those stock wire wheels? The chances of finding a new tire that does NOT say not to use inner tubes? Wires are fine on trailer queens, but a little less than practical on a car that is driven significant distances. Yes, I know that Westie has wires, but they are far from the stock wires.

David "same old facts leading to the same old conclusions" Lieb
David Lieb

Well I started and I could not get the brakes moved. The bolts would not budge. I may have to wait till I can get into a better position underneath. I should have taken a photo of the coil spring as they are in terrible state. Just because a car has low miles does not meen it has not deteriated in other ways. I also took the code off the tires and they were made on 1993, so now I am going to have to rethink what I want to do.
I didn't meen to get anybody rialed up.
Pax.
Allan
ADJ Jacks

David, I can agree with the balancing bit, but mounting? Fitting a tyre on one is not difficult. Spoked wheel motorcycles use tubes. I don't see servicing them as dying art! And I have never had problems finding a tube - even in Western Australia. Which type of tyre specifically states that it should not be used with tubes - race or road tyres? I have never come across one. I admit that you are limited to tyre size, but 165/65 is big enough for 90% of spridget owners.
Trailer queens! You are talking out of your ar*e. Spend your money and go to the Goodwood revival. Watch all those wire wheeled 'trailer queens' racing.
Did a new MG with the wire wheel option cost more than disc? If so, you would imagine it was a cost saving excercise.
And for the record - I would swap to alloys tommorrow if I had the cash. This is only because of the track work. I prefer the look of spokes, and judging by the publics reaction, so do they.
Shawn

Nobody has commented on the brake cooling benefit of Wire wheels...... Lots better than the std Disc wheels.

Both Shawn and Anita have 4.5" wires on their cars NOT the std 4" versions and I agree with Shawn, 165 / 70 or 65 profiles are ideal (and fit comfortably under 'square' arches). ADJ is certainly going to narrower rims by fitting Wires, but for aesthetics they are great. With these I would use 155/70 tyres (tires... lol).

Tom reiterates my my comments on another post regarding modern rubber. When the Sprite and Midget were in production initially, 'Cross Ply' tyres were all that were available and gave the wheels no major stress. Fitting modern 'sticky' rubber IS asking for trouble. One 'spirited' track day certainly proved that on Anita's Midget.

Alloy wheels... Great, they look superb and do dissipate heat well and are generally strong, but as for un-sprung weight, I don't think there is much to be gained unless you are going to the expense of fitting Magnesium versions.

I guess it's down to ADJ and WHY he is fitting Wire wheels. I certainly wouldn't try to stop him unless he was fitting them for entirely the wrong reasons....

Mark.




Mark T. Boldry

This was the state of the spring.
Now I have a list of things that I need to do before I can do the things I want to do.
Back to the garage.
Allan


ADJ Jacks

>>> Nobody has commented on the brake cooling benefit of Wire wheels...... Lots better than the std Disc wheels. <<<

So you'd suspect, since they let more air through. But anyone who has inadvertently over-adjusted a rear brake on a Rostyle-wheeled car can vouch for the fact that steel wheels make really good heat sinks, so I suspect that they aren't entirely useless.

I'd like to swap my Rostyles for alloys some day, but mainly because the centers of my wheels have distorted slightly after being squeezed by lug nuts for over thirty years, and are causing the studs to bend inward slightly. It's a known issue with those wheels, and I'd really like to replace all the wheels and studs in one swell foop.

Maybe someday I'll be able to afford that...

-:G:-
Gryf Ketcherside

<<when I refer to the hubs, I am including the hub to the rim (what the inner end of the spokes attach to)>>

Fascinating, but highly illogical, captain. The inner end of the spokes attach to the splined hub, which is the centre part of the wheel. Unsurprisingly (and unsprungilly), this is included in the weight of the wheel. I do not have a standard 4" wire wheel to hand without a tyre on it, but the weight of a 4.5" D458 wire wheel is a beefy 7 Kg. That means, from stub axle to tyre there is a total unsprung weight of 11.8 Kg.

<<the wires are narrower than the stock disk wheels on Allan's 73 Midget>>

In fact the standard Dayton wire wheel for the Spridget is 4.5" wide (and in the UK MWS sell a 5.5" wire wheel). It's only the Dunlop India wheels that are 4" these days. Surely someone has a tyreless (or tireless - this could get tiresome) Rostyle to weigh?

<<History, like statistics, can be bent to whatever whim you happen to espouse.>>

Not if the espouser has integrity and doesn't just make things up. It is not my period, David, but I would love to hear where to find the factual evidence which suggested to you that MG changed the TD from wire wheels because they were narrow, required knowledgeable people, went out of true, or were hard to clean.

TC


Tom Coulthard

This thread was discussed between 20/06/2008 and 22/06/2008

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

This thread is from the archive. The Live MG Midget and Sprite Technical BBS is active now.