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MG MGA - car number plate / chassis number plate

The car number plate attached to the firewall sometime changed during production of the MGA.
The first plates had raised letters, the later ones were only black printed and totally flat.
I wonder when they changed it. It seems that nobody knows it exactly. Even in Clausager's "Original MGA" isn't any information about that.
So I want to ask you guys with the unrestored cars, which chassis number plate your MGAs have.
The latest car I found with a raised letter plate is car number 36897.
Does anyone have a later car with a raised letter plate?
Each hint is much appreciated.
Robert
Robert Mueller

I don't have our car number handy but it's a 59 and I believe the original plate had the ID numbers stamped into it. I will have to search for it as it is in my collection of leftover parts as it was rather damaged.
Johnn H

Robert are you asking about the Vin # plate 3" X 4" on the heater shelf or are you asking about the body number on the little tag spot welded to the firewall?
R J Brown

Robert is talking about the 3" x 4" Car No. plate on the heater shelf. The blank plate, before any numbers were stamped on it has slightly raised lettering in silver with the background painted black. See here: http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/restore/pics/car_no_1500.jpg

Incidentally that is my original Car No. plate, issue August 1957.

Current reproduction plates are perfectly flat with the black apparently photo print and anodized.
Barney Gaylord

Robert, Mine has raised text letters and it is July 1960, 95194. Mike
m.j. moore

@Barney: thank you for explaining my question.

@Mike: Interesting, that this late car has a plate with raised text letters. I know the car with number 102212 has a totally flat plate (see Clausager p.98).
So the changing must be between 95194 and 102212. By the way, Mike, on your car plate do you have an engine number stamped on it or only "SEE ENGINE"?

Robert
Robert Mueller

I was not aware that the design of the number plate ever changed during production. I thought the originals all had raised lettering, and the smooth ones are more recent aftermarket reproduction parts. I hate to say it, but it wouldn't be the only place where Clausager was wrong (assuming it is).
Barney Gaylord

Both my 60 Coupe,82624 and 62 Roadster,102238 have raised letters on their origional plates. You can hardly tell the letters are raised and really only noticable when the black paint is gone. Hope this helps and have a good day!

John
John Progess

I don't think Clausager is wrong because the nameplate shown on p.98 is identical to mine apart from the car number. Even the text fonts are the same. I know mine is original so that would indicate that the one shown is too, as Clausager says.

My guess is that the nameplates were produced by first screen printing an acid/alkali resist onto the plate followed by the anodizing process the first stage of which is an alkali etch which would remove some of the Al surface exposed thereby leaving the slightly raised unexposed text. The raising is no more than a thou or so but you can imagine on a production line an operator leaving the plates in the etch a bit long leading to more raising. By incorporating a black dye in the anodizing solution the aluminium oxide layer turns out black.

No doubt the reproductions use a cheaper method where the black is a paint screen printed directly onto the plate thus omitting the anodizing process.

An anodized plate would be more hard wearing and tolerate, for example, spilled brake fluid.

Yes,I would be surprised if MG changed the supplier of these plates during the car's production run - any financial saving would have been so small.

Anyway does anyone know a supplier of the original style plate as I don't fancy one of these repros (which I haven't seen yet)? Mike

m.j. moore

Mike,
I'm relatively sure that the plate in Clausager p98 is a flat one, only printed. At the right up and down edges of the plate you see small black lines. These are typical for positioning printing films. Not normal at etching processes.

I don't think there is a supplier of the original style plate yet. Emphasizing on "yet". Have some patience, and let us see ...

@ John Progess: Do your plates have engraved engine numbers or the (printed?) term "SEE ENGINE"?

Robert

Robert Mueller

I am holding plates from 2 cars. GHNL2/102154 looks and feels flat. It is also painted black on the back side. The relief on GHNL/90954 looks and feel raised and the back of the plate is not painted. I know both are orig. I have never before seen a flat original one. I have seen the repro tags and this is not one.
R J Brown

Barney, What were you thinking?!! Now that you've removed it the warranty is void!

Excuse me for my lame attempt at humor on a Monday

j
JohnB

With all information at the moment for me it looks more like that all MGA plates had raised letters and they changed only the stamping in of the engine number to the printed term "SEE ENGINE".
Car number 36897 has a stamped in engine number whereas car number 40172 has already "SEE ENGINE". So they changed somewhere between these two numbers.
Anybody more information?
Thanks for your help.

Robert

Robert Mueller

1500 models had the engine number and the body color letter stamped on the plate. 1600 models said "SEE ENGINE" and no color letter. The first 1600 car was 68851 in May 1959.

I thought that all 1500's, at least through January 1959, had the engine number stamped on the plate, so maybe 40172 has a replacement plate. I might be wrong though, so it would be interesting to know exactly when the transition took place. The plates are otherwise identical.
Barney Gaylord

Barney,
my Twin Cam was built starting february 11, 1959, the plate shows 'SEE ENGINE'
Siggi
Siggi

Barney

Only early 1500s had the engine number on the plate. Mine (Sept 1958) had See Engine.

Steve
Steve Gyles

Mine was Aug '57. Who's in between?
Barney Gaylord

Just to put some firm evidence down to help this 'See Engine' discussion along I have put a picture of my original and tatty chassis plate on my website.

My 1500 vehicle is chassis number is 55600, manufactured 27 August 1958, and is inscribed 'See Engine'.

http://freespace.virgin.net/stephen.gyles/hot_press.htm

Steve
Steve Gyles

Steve,
on your plate it looks like that the term "SEE ENGINE" and the chassis number is all engraved, not stamped in?

On Barney's plate only the prefix with the slash is engraved and the number is stamped in.
Robert Mueller

Robert

I have added a close-up of the stamping/engraving to my website - same URL

You will notice that the final 3 numbers (600) are slightly out of alignment to the first 2 numbers (55). This would suggest an automated stamping machine. The 'SEE ENGINE' is also in a different font size, suggesting that it was probably done on a different machine or at another stage of the process. Had it all been engraved I am sure an engraver would have got all the numbers in line and kept the same font size throughout.

Steve
Steve Gyles

Steve, would ir be okay if I post your plate picture on my web site?

On Steve's plate the entire car number appears to be machine stamped, maybe all at the same time on the same machine. "SEE ENGINE" also appears to be machine stamped, but in a smaller font. This was probably done in mass production at an earlier stage.

It is interesting that there seems to be a transition period here where "SEE ENGINE" was stamped on the plate for some time before the plate production was changed to have "SEE EMGINE" printed on the plate. Now I'm curious as to when that next transition occured (printing), in case it may not exactly coincide with beginning of 1600 production.

While we're looking for more examples to narrow the time frame between 36897 and 55600, would someone like to send a picture of an orginal later plate with "SEE ENGINE" printed on it (not stamped)? Now that we have three different configurations, I wonder if there might have been any other format changes.
Barney Gaylord

Barney

Please do.

Looking closer at my plate The letters HDR are set the lowest of the sequence. The numbers 43 and the second 5 are set higher but level with one another. The first 5 and the 60 are slightly higher but level with one another; and the final 0 is set the highest of all.

Amusing really, I am talking closer tolerances here than the general car build standard!

Steve
Steve Gyles

Okay, see here: http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/restore/rt107.htm
I lightened the image some for better visibility, and added some related text.

Now I need at least one more picture of the latest plate, and more references to determine where the change points occured.
Barney Gaylord

This thread was discussed between 25/01/2006 and 06/02/2006

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