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MG MGA - 'Concours' 1600 on Ebay with CD?
| Maybe I'm confused but the eBay listing for this '61 roadster says it won 3rd place in a concours 2 years ago, yet it apparently had a CD player and speakers in it. Also the indide door panels have pull handles that look to be those from a coupe door. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/MG-MGA-1961-MG-MGA-Concours_W0QQitemZ4607020850QQcategoryZ80750QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem - Ken |
| Ken Doris |
| My 1962 MKII which I bought in 1977 also had handles installed in the doors. Mark |
| M Gannon |
| Ken. Many years ago, I was stationed with one John Schmit. He always used to say, "As my old Daddy said, send sh*t to school, get sh*t back". (Sorry if the words offend anyone--we, in the military, were a somewhat "outspoken" group.) The vehicle is, clearly, much modified from the original. So, should I ever get it finished, will be my restoration of my 1961 MGA 1600. My car was purchased from a friend, one Jim Townsend, in 1978 when I had to return from Germany for a three month service school at the same time Jim had orders for England. Jim and I had purchased our MGAs, in Cheyenne, Wyoming of all places, within a few months of each other. My, original 61 MGA 1600 went to my brother when I was assigned overseas. Jim sold his car to me so I would have transportation in the US and he could take his Corvette (he had a 66 427 and I had a 69 427 up in Wyoming) to the UK. Adrienne and I visited with him and his wife on our honeymoon, taken in Germany and the UK. I am restoring my MGA for my younger daughter, making a number of modifications to it. I had purchased an MGB for her to learn to drive on (as I did for her sister), but she is too short to operate the clutch and brake at the same time. The MGA will be modifed to accomodate this fact. I am also installing an MGB engine and some other form of transmission in the rebuilt car. (I am considering the five speed since she is familar with that from her Miata, but may install an four syncro MGB transmission.) Myself, I am a driver, not a show car person. I purchased my first Brit Sports car in 1968, an Austin-Healey Sprite Mark II. For the vast majority of my life, I have driven British Sports Cars as my primary means of transportation. I do so today. Thus, I am not particularly familiar with "show cars". I am, intimately, familiar with cars which are fun to drive. If, in my old age, a car is very fun to drive, I am willing to put up with the fact that it is not as delivered from the factory--if the price is right. If, however, someone decides they want a "show car", I do not have any problem with that. There is a market for such cars, although a limited one. For my own self, I do not intend to laugh at the poor fellow who thinks he has a "show car" and asks an excessive price for such. I, merely, ignore such people, and go out and drive my cars. None of the cars I own would place well in a formal car show. However, my older daughter, Theresa, and I rebuilt the 77 MGB that she learned to drive on. Recently, she took her fiance,and his dog (custom made dog bed for the rear shelf of the MGB)on a 2,000 mile trip to meet some of his relatives. A single problem, during the entire trip, with the reproduction (Moss) thermostat housing that holds the air pump in place. That was corrected in 20 minutes (remove the air pump and put it in the trunk) and the trip went, other wise, without problems. I do respect those who own MGs, of any model, as an artifact of an earlier time. However, ours are to be driven and are valued as same. Others may have a different opinion--I pity them. Les |
| Les Bengtson |
| Ken: Can it be a 1961 MGA with the spare wheel passing through the rear bulkhead? John |
| J H Cole |
| Hi Ken, The MGA in question is a very nice looking car - but as you point out is not "concours" - this title is somewhat over used and in some places "pride of ownership" would be a better name. The spare wheel on all roadsters went into the cockpit - only the coupes moved totally into the boot during its production run. Whoever gets this MGA will have a car to be proud of ( if the chassis is as good as the body looks)- even if they don't "show" it . I too hope they drive it as much as possible and not just polish it. Cheers Cam (polished black MGA) |
| C Cunningham |
| I agree that each owner should "restore" or maintain their A in the manner that makes the most sense to them. My point was that the advert in eBay stressed the term concours, with a reference to a prestigious win at a major show, while the car was in no way a concours restoration (see Barney's earlier post on whether judges should deduct points for wrong bolts and nuts). I disagree with this type of eBay posting in that the seller says it has been " restored to concours specs" and undoubtedly knows that is just advertising hype. Then again, maybe he doesn't know the meaning of "concours" and I am being too critical. - Ken |
| Ken Doris |
| I agree with you Ken. (If that makes you feel any better). |
| Andy Bounsall |
| Ken, it only took third place, the winner had the video system installed in the dash and the boot filled with amps and woofers. ;-) For those of us that aren't so serious about 'concours' points, remember that the experience of the judges and the quality of the other cars entered has a lot to do with where a car might place. |
| Bill Young |
| There are concours and then there are real concours. The former is when club members get together to have a show and popular choice voting by the entrants is used. Normally the car that wins is either owned by someone the club knows well, or it is a bright red car with chrome wires (people are like magpies and are attracted to shiny baubles). A true concours is when your car is judged on originality and you lose points for modern stereos and chromed valve covers where there shouldn't be one. It is much harder to win this kind of concours, and I bet the car for sale wasn't etntered in such. I used to judge real concours and I imagine I was the bane of local restorers when I pointed out such flaws as the little chrome washer missing under the turn signal jewel (these were unavailable for quite awhile), the very common use of MGB radio blanking plates with inappropriate crackle black paint, the fact that the restorer (or owner) had mounted the bumper overiders upside down. One guy got quite upset when he wouldn't believe me that no Twincam ever had a bolt head sticking up in the timing case between the cam covers at the front of the engine. I guess the restorer or owner found it there and figured it must be ooriginal (I never could figure out why anyone would drill and tap a hole there). The owner was understandably upset at the prospect of having to rip apart his newly assembled engine to weld up the hole and steadfastly refused to believe me (had he asked politely I'd have told him what you can do with some JB Weld and paint). |
| Bill Spohn |
| I agree with Les,pretty much. Yhe handles appear to be from a magnette or a TR4.Its a good looking car.I have a problem with a car winning a prize that has its inner panels coated with undercoating, however practical that may be. If you are going to undercoat the inner panels you have saved yourself mucho hours of labor in the finish process.There are others ways of protecting the inner panels and be showable with out the tar route.Still tho a very nice car. |
| wc wolcott |
| Greetings to all, There is only one "concours" and in my opinion, and only one "restored". It either is, or it isn't. Concours is the highest level of juding standards which is why I've never taken the steps to achieve such a level. In concours juding, one can only go down in points! And, the missing washer under the jewel is not a small matter at that level. Number 4 "cup washers" under interior panel screws draw undo attention if incorrect as well. Wiring harness attachment points and improperly located securing straps can be cause for concern too. I did a frame-off "restoration" on a 1957 TR3 several years ago. It took me just over two years to complete and while it also won some national first place awards, (in the driven daily class)I drove it everywhere and often. Each fall I'd put it up on jack stands and spend a few days cleaning the undercarriage, wiping down the underside of the floor pans and as best I could, the suspension and drive train. Point being, one can have it both ways i.e., a very nice example to be proud of and still get full enjoyment from driving/owning it. Often I see ads for cars stating "restored" and I call to inquire. I ask, if the interior and/or carpets have been replaced? "No." Has the engine been rebuilt? "Well, no, it runs fine". So, in the end I discover the car was recently resprayed and has a new top! Oh boy! I agree "concours" and "restored" are used far too often by those who don't really understand the terms. To restore means to make "as new". I don't know what concours means, I just know I don't wish to go there. |
| robert maupin |
| Hi everyone, It seems as if my mga on Ebay has stirred up some conversation. For the record, the car did place in the concours at the British Invasion in Stowe, VT, and there was some very serious competition. The CD player is removable and the original face plate fits in. I am only the second owner of this car, and I can assure the "so-called experts" that it received very few modifications, short of the stereo system and the negative grounding, which is a five minute process to reverse. The door handles are part of the deluxe, interior kit that came from Victoria British. Unlike many MGAs out there, this car has the original spoked rims, the original, wooden floor, the original transmission, the original engine, the original, factory hardtop, and the list goes on. Short of my stereo system which was a conscious choice as I like to listen to music, I'd put this mga up against any out there. In short, this car's body, engine, interior, and undercarriage are as good as it gets, so I dismiss those who suggest that the term "concours" is loosely used because of a stereo. Cheers, Troy |
| Michael Hosier |
| I forgot to add; my spare does go into the cockpit, and the amp and speakers are hidden up under the DASH. One can only see them if you look up under the dash. The only visible speakers are the two by your feet, and I have the cover made for them to match the colour of the interior, so even they aren't easily visible. Troy |
| Michael Hosier |
| Seems I have to make another comment. The inner panels do not have tar. Because of the roads around here with their continous amount of small stones, I painted them black rather than red. Troy |
| Michael Hosier |
| Last comment as this is really beginning to annoy me. Andy, you are from Ottawa which is only an hour from me. Before you go agreeing with Ken why don't you come and see the car for yourself. If not, talk to Len of the Ottawa MG club as he knows this car very well, and was there for its win. Troy |
| Michael Hosier |
| Oy Micheal, don't get your shorts all in a knot! I'm sure your car is lovely. It sure looks great in the photos. I don't question how you've chosen to restore the car. However, in my mind "concours" means "exactly as it would've it left the factory". To the best of my knowledge, in 1961 MGA roadsters didn't come equipped with factory installed CD players, under-dash amplifiers, speakers in the foot wells, nor pull handles on inside of the doors. None of that makes it a bad car. It's just that to me these things negate the "concours"-ness of the vehicle. I believe that's the heart of what Ken was getting at. At least that's what I was agreeing with. |
| Andy Bounsall |
| Hi Andy, It's not Micheal who reponded to you, it's Troy. I'm obviously using this process incorrectly. I think you are mistaken about the handles, but I am going to do some research. As mentioned, the aftermarket stereo was installed in such a way that it can easily come out, so does that really take away from the car? If I was going to put it into a concours show again, I'd take the stereo out for sure, leaving only the wires which can be easily hidden. If "my shorts appear to be in a knot," I think that may be because they are. I was honest in my description of the car on Ebay in that short of the aftermarket stereo that I had installed, the car itself was restored to concours specs. I do have the original radio, but I was referring to the paint job, the engine, the interior, and the undercarriage. When it comes to these items, I would be willing to put this car up against any, and I'm sure it will have a respectable showing. I'm very annpoed that other owners out there would use words like "this is by no means a concours car." They can look at the paint, the seams, the spacing between the body and doors, the engine, the interior, the transmission, and the spoked rims, the chrome, and after doing so tell me what a concours car is really all about. Because I drive my car I chose to paint the inner wheels panels black, but once again does that deminish a car's "concours-ness" as you put it? In short, I am not altering the description of the car on Ebay as it truly is finished to such a standard, and whoever buys it can decide about the sterep for him/herself, but to say it is not a concours car because of an easily removable stereo is going too far in the other direction. Cheers, Troy |
| Michael Hosier |
| Michael, first of all -- nice car. Secondly though -- didn't you have to cut through the sheet metal to get those stereo speakers into the kick panels? And still qualifies for concours category? I think it is not the presence of the stereo that people are debating. Those things that can be bolted in and removed easily, leaving no permanent alterations, are often quite desireable. But cutting sheet metal is where the line for "concours" is usually drawn...or maybe those are special ultra-thin low profile removeable speakers? Also did not see a factory hardtop in the listing, or maybe you are selling it seperately? Anyway best of luck with the auction. |
| Jim P |
| "concourse" is a term that describes returning a car to exactly the condition it was in when it left the factory. Any changes that can't be documented cause points to be lost. Most cars that are returned to "concourse" condition are trailer queens that go from show to garage. For example if a restorer doesn't get the "proper" over-spray on intake manifolds of Chevrolet V8 cars you lose points. This car appears to be a very nice restoration. But the term concourse does not apply, in fact it appears that the attempt was to make the car better. The black inside the wings, The red brake drums, The modern radio, the door pulls, the polished carbs, the unpainted carb heat shield, even the gloss paint on the radiator are all non "Concourse" The fender mirrors, the plastic wing windows even the steering wheel cover would need documentation to keep from losing points. What was the original color of the car? where is the documentation for the color. It is obvious that even if red was the original color the shade used is too RED (and pretty) to be concourse. I don't think anyone was attacking the car just the improper use of the word concourse. Concours is also a misspelling but apparently an appropriate one. Nice car! good luck! I don't do Concourse either, these cars should be more fun than that! Randy |
| R J Brown |
| Hi Randy and Jim, Well...these comments make much more sense! Yes, the steering wheel cover should be removed (my actual wheel is perfect), and so should the wings for sure (that takes an Allen key) I was under the impression that "concourse" was where you drove versus "concours" being a level of competition; you're probably right as I'm not 100% sure on this one! The polished carbs are just covers that one can buy for appearance purposes. Once again, they easily come off. They are available for about $40 from VB as well. The actual appearance of the carbs are fine; I just thought these looked even nicer! I did research the paint colors, and have the actual paint codes/cards, so I can assure you that this is the true colour without any alteration to it. Admitedly though, it did receive two coats of paint and clear which is perhaps something I should have given some thought to. The good thing is small scratches can be easily buffed out. I am wondering though, about the paint on the rad; should I flaten that? All the books I looked at suggested they were kinda shiny, but if I end up keeping the car I might give that one some more thought; I also liked the mirrors on the fenders, and thought they were an accessory. I do have the original accessories phamplet so I'll have a look, but you're probably right about that. In closing, I will certainly agree with you that perhaps I made this car better than it ever was! Troy |
| Michael Hosier |
| ps...yes, I do have the original, factory hardtop, tools, and pump with case, but I thought I'd offer those separately after the auction. I also had the largest (or one of the largest) collection of miniature MGAs and memorabilia in the world, but once word of my "retirement" got out collectors from around the world have been buying them up. Some of my cars can be seen in the latest MAMGAR magazine. Safety fast! Troy |
| Michael Hosier |
| Last comment: For a concours car to be considered a car that is exactly how it left the factory, would that not mean that all cars in concours would have the imperfections that these were known for? I have talked to several people who used to own dealereships, and they have assured me that these cars arrived wtih fenders that did not line up, seams that were not even etc., etc., but I have not seen any evidence of this "factory originality" in any concours competition, so I woild suggest that all of us "concours owners" have improved on the original for sure. Troy |
| Michael Hosier |
| Troy/Michael - you are correct - the JCNA concours, which splits down to the fractional point, would not allow a clean Jaguar driven off the show room floor to win. They have to be literally better than they ever were new to win - all of the paint blems gone, any overspray taken out, the protective coating that used to be applied in transport completely polished away. Please understand - people aren't saying your car isn't exceptionally nice - it clearly is. They are just saying that it doesn't correspond to the strict definition of concours as there are many areas in which it would lose points in the anal retentive judging you get (and that I have done) in a real concours. The inner door handles are not original on roadsters, BTW - you seemed to be uncertain about that. They are undoubtedly useful, though, as I know, having them (as original) on my coupe. |
| Bill Spohn |
| I drive a rust bucket,and love it. Where does this fit into the equasion.....Coupe door handles,{as you know} are different than Troys. Troy, I for one hope you get your reserve. Brings the price of rust up. |
| wc wolcott |
| Troy - you have an very beautiful car there and I never intended to say otherwise. As others have mentioned it was only the term "concours specs" in the ad that I had issue with. All the Best, - Ken |
| Ken Doris |
| Well, I'm confused, who is selling this car, Michael Hosier or Troy (troyguindon). As an aside, MGs have always been a desirable choice of sportscar due in no small part to their reasonable price. I am dismayed by those who "overdo" these cars, especially with chrome. (Clausager: "It does not appear that chrome-plated wire wheels were ever available.") However everyone to his own. |
| A MG |
| Hi everyone, I'm confused too as this keeps putting Mike's name on my responses, but to make it clear I've signed all of mine "Troy," so everyone knows it was me, the seller of the car, who was responding. Bill, I'm not fimiliar with the door handles on coupes. As mentioned, I bought the deluxe interior kit from Victoria British and it came with those handles. I know my spokes look chromed, but they are painted (as close to original as I could find) I wish in retrospect that I used the words: "restored to a very high standard with several modifications, " as I think they enhance the car. I guess we're all on the same page now!! Happy motoring, Troy (not Michael) |
| Michael Hosier |
| For the record, here is the list of Concours specifications for the MGA: http://www.mgcars.org.uk/mgarh/carinfo/concours.htm Regards, Joe |
| Joe Cook |
| Ok so let me at least clear up the confusion of identity. I am Michael Hosier. I knew when I saw this thread that it was Troy's car. I copied the link to the thread while signed in and emailed it to him for his information. When he read my email and selected the the hypertext link in my email he automatically was signed in under my login (strange ??). From then on his responses all showed up as Michael Hosier rather than his name. So ...... Troy, please come into the BBS under your own login id and get to this thread in the normal fashion. From there all should be back to normal. I know Troy has a beautiful car. Much better than my own 1960 MGA Roadster which is far from "concours" or "concourse" but mine is special to me and the 2500-3000 miles I put on it every summer bring true pleasure. Cheers all !! Michael Hosier (not Troy) !!!!!! |
| Michael Hosier |
| Hi Mike, Thanks for the lesson; I think I figured this out! Joe; that page is awewome! If my car des not reach the reserve, and I end up keeing it, I think I might do some of that list for sure. While my car has a lot of it already, there are some things I can change/alter for little cost. Thanks again! Troy |
| T Guindon |
| Sorry Randy but "concours" is not a mis-spelling. It comes from the French "concours d'elegance" where the "concours" means "contest". So a concours vehicle can be just one worthy of merit - but can be applied to various judging situations of organisations which have their own rules and regulations. The word "concourse" comes from the latin meaning "running together" applied to such places as railway stations or shopping malls. we did have this pedantic conversation at our own club "pride of ownership" competition. website www.westlancsmg.co.uk Cheers Cam Cunningham |
| C Cunningham |
| Troy. Actually, I hope that your car does not sell. It seems that you have restored your car, as closely as possible, to original, have put a lot of thought, research, money and hard work into it. While a CD player might not be "correct", people were installing state of the art (back then) sound systems in their MGs and Austin-Healeys. If we had CD players back then, someone would have installed them just as we installed AM and early model AM/FM radios in these cars--they were what was available. Thus, as one who drives for enjoyment, I would stretch my "in the spirit of the era" definition to include a high quality sound system. If you must sell it, I hope it goes to a good home. However, I would much rather see such a lovingly rebuilt car driven by the person who put that amount of time and effort into it rather than someone who simply had the money to afford someone else's dream. Les |
| Les Bengtson |
| Well.....lots of interest on this topic! Cam, I too always thought as you did, so I'm pleased to hear that perhaps I haven't been completely wrong all these years! Les, thank you for the kind words. Your commene about the stereo makes sense to me, but I do concede that a definition is a definition. From my perspective, I'm going to look at my car as one which equal or exceeds a concours restoration in many areas, but does have some modifications which, to me, make it a better car to drive and enjoy. I especially gave a lot of thought to switching it to negative ground (5 minute process) so I can put in a regular, negatively grounded battery, a modern and safe fuel pump, an alarm, and of course a CD player! Cheers, Troy |
| T Guindon |
| Yes I am afraid I have to disagree with a lot of the comments above. Every car is basically a concours car, the only difference is that some are more "accurate" than others and thus some will win and others won't! If a car needs to be perfect to be classed as a concours car then we would not even have the term because I have never seen one. Every car I have ever seen comes no where near how it left the factory, whether that be the paint job that is "too good" or the wrong bolts used to hold the body together. So we have concours competitions to find a car that comes the "closest" to the original vehicle. As noted however by many here some do not even come close! |
| Bob (robert) I used to own a Morris Oxford |
| Hi Folks. The MGA in question seems to generally be a nicely restored example of the Marque. However, when I looked at the side view photo, it appears to me that the door gaps are somewhat uneven. It appears to me that the front door gap is a bit larger than the rear door gap. Perhaps it is just a poor photo, or perhaps these old eyes need bifocals. At any rate, I would also have to disagree that the car is "concours" since there are modifications to it that in my opinion basically "disqualify" it from being branded a "concours restoration." I personally think that in the interest of selling the vehicle in a timely manner, that the owner might want to perhaps think about withdrawing the term concours, and substituting a different term such as "thorough restoration" or similar. I mean no disrespect with this comment. I say it simply because most people who know MGA's intimately, would likely agree that while very nice, this car is not actually "concours condition" in the true meaning of the term. This is my humble opinion only, and people are free to agree or disagree as they see fit. Cheers! GLenn |
| Glenn |
| So Glenn how accurate would the vehicle need to be to be classed as concours and who will be the judge??????? |
| Bob (robert) I used to own a Morris Oxford |
| I wish my door gaps looked that good :~) Also here's the evidence of Troy's win at Stowe: http://www.britishinvasion.com/2003gallery/photo2-03.html - Ken |
| Ken Doris |
| I know I could get flamed for this but... When I go to car shows or events I don't care much for the "trailer queens" as somebody put it. Those concours-quality, absolutely pristine perfect restorations that someone has thrown tons of money into, then can't drive because that would introduce a layer of dust or grime or whatever. So they tow them to the car show and then back home. Maybe they drive them occasionally, but very carefully and very short distances. My respect and admiration goes to the guys who DRIVE their cars, even beat the crap out of them, yet keep them running after thousands of hard miles. I remember one recent event where several MGs, Healeys and Triumphs (all perfect show-winners) were being pushed into their respective spaces. A minute later, an old Morgan drove up, COMPLETELY SPATTERED with dead bugs all over the windshield and grille. You could tell the guy had driven it hundreds of miles to be at that event. In my opinion, that was "best in show" since that car could actually be USED and enjoyed the way it was meant to be, and it wore all that dirt and grime like a badge of honor. Just my .02! :) |
| Jim P |
| NO flame here. Drive em! That way yuor never "done" |
| R J Brown |
| I have been keeping out of this discussion til now because I have never been a fan of concours but that of knowledge of originality. But I cannot even claim to be a practitioner of originality. Like many owners from when the MGA was new I have modified the car to make it handle better, go faster and be more reliable. The workforce in the late 50s had poor quality materials to work with in post war Britain; the jigs and presses worked to sixteenths of an inch rather than the thousanths of today; the paints could still be what was left over from military contracts; the workers had not long been out of rationing; motivation was low; and work was heavily influenced by trade union practices. Typical of the period was the Friday afternoon car. Workers were paid on Thursday afternoon/Friday morning, so the last shift before the weekend was often after a lunchtime session in the pub. Therefore, to build an MGA to original 'concours' standard almost requires you to work badly and have dozens of faults with the finished vehicle. I recently had a visit to the original Abingdon factory site. All cars came off the final production line and straight into the rectification shed! I can still remember new cars in the 60s and 70s with bolts missing, poor paint work, electrics not working etc. I restored my car to its original specification. My build quality was probably as good as and probably better in many areas than the original so my car should have been classed as concours. But no, it would not have even passed a pre-qualifying cursory examination by today's standards. So to every restored car I see I say well done to the restorer. Great effort. Another historic vehicle retained on the road well past its 'scrap by date'. Enjoy. Steve |
| Steve Gyles |
| Well....I've never had so many people talking about my car; this is rather - entertaining! I guess the bottom line for me it that too many people talk about concours as being "as close to the original as possible," but let's face it; how many cars that came right out of the factory would have won a concours competition?? I've been getting a lot of "slams" due to my stereo, but is it not just as "wrong" to repaint our cars with much better paint, or do we not take advantage of the paint technology that is now available? Is it also wrong to take advantage of all the research that tire companies have done to create a better product, or should we stick with the old technology? We have all made improvements on the original in one way or another, so why is it that a technologically better stereo is wrong, but other things aren't? (Even the way the body shop preps the car today is far better than the original). Do I believe my car is of concours quality? - absolutely! Did I improve on the paint, the tires, and many other things? - absolutely! Did I improve on the stereo? - I'm not sure as my original is not in good working order!! And for the record, the gaps around my doors are as good as they get, and my doors, when closed, are also flush with the body. Ken provided the link to the concours competition I was in, and some of you know the competition as well as some of the cars, so I think we can dismiss the comment from Bill Young who said: "it only took third place," and "the experience of the judges and the quality of the other cars entered has a lot to do with where a car might place." Cheers, Troy |
| T Guindon |
| Hi Bob (I used to own a Morris) Joe Cook's posting in this thread has information on what points a vehicle is judged as being "concours" I have no problem with Modified MGA's or any other cars for that matter. I simply dont believe that cars that obviously deviate from factory original specs should be labelled as "concours." Automobile Concours Competition judges would be well suited to judging if a vehicle was concours or not. I am certainly not an MGA OR concours expert, but the vehicle in question has been significantly modified, and I personally believe that as such, this vehicle would not do very well in a true concours competition, because of the modifications. On the other hand, this car has obviously been lovingly and painstakingly rebuilt. It is a beautiful car, and has lots going for it. I'm sure the owner will get his asking price for this lovely MGA. I simply feel that it is mislabelled as being concours. Personally, my MGA is a daily driver, and has been somewhat modified to enhance performance and reliability. Unless someone quite knowledgeable inspects the car, it appears to be stock. I personally do not like the Concours aspect of MGA ownership. To be a slave to originality, out of necessity, would inherently limit the amount of time and distance the vehicle was driven, and would vastly increase the amount of cosmetic maintainence needed. My belief is that these cars are meant to be driven! They are designed for true old fashioned motoring, and are supposed to be FUN. Owning a "trailer queen" that is seldom driven is in my opinion, counter to what the MGA is all about. Die hard concours enthusiast will likely take exception to my blasphemous comment. I will therefore add that I respect everyone's right to do with their vehicles as they see fit. If winning concours competitions is what makes someone happy, then who am I to judge that as being wrong? I am just a single enthusiast with a personal bias. I suspect Concours enthusiasts are also! Cheers, GLenn |
| Glenn |
| Hi Troy. Your point about improved paint and tires is well taken. Yes, these are also deviations from factory originality. But I think these deviations are largely due to an availability issue with regard to concours efforts. Cellulose paint, and bias ply tires are getting more difficult to obtain in many localities. Most tires sold now are Radials, and even radial tires in the required size to fit our MGA's are becoming harder to find. Paint technology has indeed come a long way, and again, old fashioned paints have been largely supersceded by tougher, and longer lasting products. Again, original type paint is becoming more difficult to find. Many paint shops wont stock old style paints because they dont sell enough of it to justify the storage space. I'm not sure if Concours judges would subtract points for enhanced tires or improved paint types. And I personally dont care! For me, if my car starts, goes, stops, and looks good, that is enough for me. Perhaps too much emphasis is put on "originality", but I guess the saying different strokes for different folks applies here also. Regarding my comment on your door gaps: From the photograph, it does appear to me that there is some variation in gap width, but photos can and do lie! I certainly take your word that your door gaps are indeed good. Best of luck selling your MG. I also hope that you will reconsider keeping it and driving it! MGA's are a blast to own and drive. Cheers! GLenn |
| Glenn |
| I guess we all draw a personal line at how we want to restore our cars. In my restoration, right from the outset, I looked at the same concours link provided by Joe Cook above and felt that was not my goal. I did, however, disregard strong pressure from my local MG club to replace my 1622cc engine and tranny and 4.1 rear with a "more modern MGB setup". I realized the "B" technology was better, hell, so would using a Miata setup, but for my personal pride in the car I felt I'd go with what the original equipment as much as possible. After all, that was what was in the car when I bought it in 1968 and it was my daily, year round driver for years, including Northeast winters. The restroration isn't done, but we put about 2500 miles on the car this summer/fall and continue to pull it out for short trips every chance we get this winter (riding along on our Korean tires:). I'm glad that this thread I started didn't turn out to be a "flame" contest and that we all could share our thoughts on the subject without getting too hard over on any one side. Also glad that another long-term (notice I avoided saying "old") MGA owner like Troy has, in the end, been able to enjoy the discussion. - Ken |
| Ken Doris |
| Well.....just when I thought it was over.... Glenn, I wasn't really meaning to focus on tires and paint versus the idea that most of us opt to take advantage of technological advances in various areas of the restoration process. My car has the original, wooden floor; how many others can boast the same? If you have a new, modern floor made from modern materials is that not as "significant" as a modern stereo? Whether we go there because of the economic savings or the acqusition ease, the point is we go there. As for my car, I don't really accept the idea that there are "significant alterations." I have certainly made some improvements to make driving more enjoyable, but my personal opinion is that a concours car should be one whose paintjob, interior, engine compartment, tires, undercarriage, etc. are of show quality, and any minor modifications to the car itself do not take away from these items. To say a car is not of concours quality because of a stereo, a steering wheel cover, mirrors, etc. dosen't make much sense to me. Aferall, how is the quality of my car really affected by whether or not I have the plate or a modern stereo in the hole, or by the fact that I have a cover over a perfect steering wheel to improve its look and grip? Perhaps I'm looking at this from the wrong perspective, but the minute we have good paint and bodies that line up, we've all deviatled greatly from the original, so a radio shouldn't be that big of a deal. Cheers, Troy |
| T Guindon |
| ps...Ken, thank for the diplomatic use of the term "long-term owner"; my wife suggests, however, that because I'm approaching forty it might make more sense to use the term "old!" ....Any takers on that one!? |
| T Guindon |
| Hi Troy. I think the stumbling block here is our two different ideas and definition regarding the word "concours." The Strictest Concours competitions are viewed as an automotive gathering where people show their vehicles with the sole intent to have them judged as to how close to original, or show room condition they have been restored. In these concours competitions, all aspects of a vehicle's appearance and condition are evaluated by Marque knowledgeable judges. The judges generally deem any deviations, changes or modificatations to the vehicles being judged (No matter how small or insignificant) as a negative thing, and points are therefore subtracted from the vehicle being judged. You state that your "personal opinion" is that a concours car "should be" one whose paintjob, interior, engine compartment, tires, undercarriage, etc. are of show quality, and any minor modifications to the car itself do not take away from those items. While I agree with your personal opinion, Concours judges at a true concours event probably would not. In my humble opinion, what you are describing, and by your own wording is a vehicle of "show quality." I believe that there is a distinct difference between show quality vehicles, and concours vehicles. I believe that difference to be that show quality vehicles can be, and are often modified from stock in some very significant way, and that concours vehicles are not modified any more than is necessary to accommodate difficulty in being able to obtain out of date items, such as paint and tires. For further example, original MGA body panels are now approaching 50 years of age. Many of the body panels are now suffering terminal rust damage. During restoration, these rust ravaged panels are often cut out or otherwise removed from the vehicle, discarded, and replaced with new sheet metal parts, or are refurbished by "grafting in" new replacement Patches. Parts such as rocker panels, inner sills, fenders, hoods, and trunks are replaced with brand new, and sometimes asian made parts. I would assume that concours judges would not dock points for these foreign made sheetmetal parts, because they are in many cases, the only option, and perhaps the only source of sheet metal parts available. The rocker panels on my MGA were actually made in Taiwan, but look as good as, and identical to Factory original English parts! On the other hand, addition of interior door pulls, or door mounted stereo speakers on an MGA would probably be docked points by a strict concours judge, because of the non originality of their placement in an MGA roadster. So again, I think our disagreement is a matter of definition, and not about your beautifully rebuilt and definitely show quality MGA! Perhaps we will end up simply having to agree to disagree on this point. Cheers! Glenn |
| Glenn |
| Hi Glenn, I certainly have no problem agreeing to disagree; I'm been married long enough to know how do do that! I guess my only problem is the whole idea of, as you point out, the definition of the term concours. From my point, nobody can say it any better than how Steve Gyles did above. If a concours competition is going to be judged on the basis of how close a car is to its original state, then we all better get rid of our fancy paint jobs and everything else that we've made better. I for one would be much happier if cars were judged based on their own merit (i.e. the quality of the paint, engine compartment, etc., etc.) The big problem for me is that I find the whole approach behind the concours competition to be somewhat contradictory in itself. Although I've had limited exposure to concours competitons, the ones that I have been to do stress such things as paint quality, body panel alignment, etc. (among other things of course), which to me are areas that are as far from original as everything else we've talked about. So....I'd be much more content with the term "show cars" for all of us; the only true "concours mga" that I've come across in a long time is the twin cam that recently sold on Ebay. It had about 13 000 original miles and was owned by Carl Meyer of Albany, NY. It might not be "show quality" in every aspect, but it truly was (is) completely origianl from the day it was built; to me, that is a true concours car! Troy |
| T Guindon |
| Hi Troy. I would have to agree that the twin cam you describe is probably closer to the "real" definition of a concours vehicle than most other MGA's around. Like you, I also find the current concours idealism difficult to comprehend, and even more difficult to personally value. As I have stated, MGA's are meant to be driven, and modifications to suit the owner are in my opinion, almost universally justifiable, EXCEPT to a strict concours judge or concours devotee. I personally dont have the time, patience, or money to be concours concious! Regardless of how much or little our MG's adhere to originality, or how they are used, I think that everyone enjoys them in their own way. Perhaps MG ownership is like religion, where people decide for themselves, what to accept or reject as true and meaningful. I have enjoyed hearing your ideas and views on this topic, and hope that I have not offended you by offering my opinions in trade. Cheer! Glenn |
| Glenn |
| Hi Glenn, Absolutely not! I too have enjoyed "swapping positions," but next time let's do it over a pint of beer! Cheers, Troy |
| T Guindon |
| Hey Glenn and Troy ...... if there's beer count me in !!! Mike |
| Michael Hosier |
| Hi again Troy. Brown pop sounds like a good idea to me! Where in Ontari,ari,ario are you anyway? I am in Kitchener, west of Toronto. |
| Glenn |
| Hi Michael. Sounds as though you like Brown pop also. lol. Do you and Troy hit the big Ancaster British car meet? I do believe they serve beer there! Might be a great place to meet, chew the fat, and quietly discuss (yeah right) the term concours? We could bring our A's, critique our vehicles and then contemplate if ported and polished heater ducts, or high compression windshield wipers are concours or not.........Cheers! GLenn |
| Glenn |
| Hey guys It has to be original MG concours beer. None of this modern stuff made to improved specifications. This is the stuff you will have to drink: http://freespace.virgin.net/stephen.gyles/speckled_hen__the_mg_beer.htm Steve |
| Steve Gyles |
| Finally a topic we can all agree on! Glenn; I'm in Cornwall! It's too bad we didn't meet earlier as I had one of the biggest (or possibly the biggest) miniature MGA and memorabilia collections in the world ). I still have about 400 cars if you ever make it this way! Steve; do you really drink that stuff? As a fan of the MG and "that beer," I'm sure you have some of the commemmorative bottles of "Old Speckled Hen" with the MG logo on it? I acquired six, unopened bottles with the six-pack carrying case, a pile of coasters, and the pub poster; it's quite neat! Well gentleman; this turned out to be fun afterall. If my concours mga with its modern stereo does not sell, I may see you on the road! Cheers, Troy |
| T Guindon |
| Troy I am like my engine, very thirsty. Got plenty of bottles, all opened and empty. No good for concours! Steve |
| Steve Gyles |
| Since on one else has pointed this car out during the discussion on orignal vs. show class cars: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/MG-MGA-1600-MARK-1-60-MG-A-1600-Mark-1-COLLECTORS-6125-ORIGINAL-MILES-RARE_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ80750QQitemZ4607361714QQrdZ1 About 100 mi/year... This is a true time capsule, but I sincerely doubt if it would win a concours/concourse show. Steve |
| Steve Brandt |
| Hi Steve, Your link emphasizes the exact point I was trying to make. If the true "concours enthusiast" really wants to talk about a car being restored as close to original as possible, well then that car is probably pretty close with all its flaws! I'd love to restore it though, and perhaps put in a good radio that would be consistent with all the other technological advancements that car would undergo! Cheers, Troy |
| T Guindon |
| Troy - well, I'm glad to see how well the auction is going for you. Currently bid up to $26,000! For a time I was worried that perhaps this thread had somehow hurt your eventual price, and that certainly wasn't my intention. All the Best, - Ken |
| Ken Doris |
| Hi Ken, Thanks for your concern. It was up to that, but then the high bidder e-mailed me as he screwed up. Take a look at the bidding history and you will see his bid of almost 1 1/2 million USD!! It must have been the stereo for sure. I bet all the rest of your guys want one now huh?! The car did sell at the reserve though. Cheers, Troy |
| T Guindon |
This thread was discussed between 24/01/2006 and 29/01/2006
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