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MG MGA - Heated garage

I would dearly love to have a heated garage to work on my car. Not tops on my wifes wish list but that's another story. So if anyone has gone ahead and heated there garage I would like to know what they did, how they heat it and what they figure the cost per season is.
Kris
Kris Sorensen

Kris,
I've insulated the ceiling with R-19, the walls with R-13 and built a set of removable insulated panels to block off the third bay. Reasonably airtight is key, allowing me to keep it around 55-60 deg. F with a $25 electric heater from Home Depot. Electric heat is expensive vs. gas, so I'll probably convert sometime downstream.
BOL,
Doug
D Sjostrom

Kris,
If you can convince her on the basis that not only can a garage be heated for a reasonably low cost, the benefits of having an opportunity to work on a vehicle without swearing, slapping your hands together to help them thaw out, etc. and also the ability to work on a vehicle during the dark hours in a lighted garage you may have some luck.
Hope it works.
mike parker

Kris,
I recently did this and what a pleasure.
It was about 20 degrees outside and pleasantly warm inside.
I bought two 5kw electric heaters. My btu analysis shows that 1 would be fine, but this gives me a fast warmup.
I am heating an insulated two car garage.
I put the heat on an hour ahead and it heats up fast. I think the cost is pretty low for a weekend warrior.
Jonathan
jonathan

My new workshop/garage is under construction and will have a heater/AC unit installed. Like the common motel type unit, all electric. About $500 through Lowes, had to special order the unit. A Frigidaire brand I found through the web. Hopefully it won't be too expensive to operate with good insulation installed.
Bill Young

Kris,

I also used heavy insulation in the walls and ceiling, tyvek, and most important--heavy thermo core garage doors. I have a small, oil filled electric space heater and can get about a 40 degree change, outside to inside.

How much heat cost is not a simple answer. First, you have to do the finance questions on the initial purchace of the system. By that, lets say the cheapest fuel you can burn is natural gas. Month to month it may be inexpensive but you paid three grand up front for the system. That three grand has to be amortized (with interest you would have gotten somewhere else) over the usefull life of the system combined with any related maintenance costs. Now, if you go out and get a small space heater, you've spent nothing up front but will pay a higher rate month to month. In the end, they work out to about the same. Best bang for the buck is a heat pump with actually produces more energy than it consumes but a little inefficient at your latitude.


The second big thing in calculating fuel consumption is Degree Days. That's a deviation factor from a "normal" temperature day. It get complicated but basicaly comes down to "how cold is it outside"--you can't just use one month or one season to determine fuel consumption. A degree day calculation will tell you if you're being effecient or not. If I told you for example, that it cost me fifty bucks to run the heater last month, it would be of absolutly no relevance to your cost unless we had the exact same designs, solar orientation, and outside temps.

In the end, if you want to work/play in your garage a lot, I would build the most insulated one you can afford. And leave the heat on. It's expensive to turn it off and on and heat the walls, ceiling and floor from stone cold--unless you're just going to work out there very occationaly.

Now how to convince the wife you need air conditioning....that's the challange!!

Have Fun,

Paul




Paul Hanley

Now how to convince the wife you need air conditioning....that's the challange!!

When it comes to the wife, I say ignorance is bliss. Insulate the hell out of it, turn a portable heater on and be done with it. If you are going to scrape your knuckles at least you can be comfortable while doing it!
My shop is well insulated and has built-in all electric AC and heat. For 9 months of the year it is usually between 50 and 80 on its own so my heating and cooling costs are small.
Ken

A few other thoughts about cost.
My garage was designed such that it could become a room, so it is fully insulated with double pane windows etc.. I also have an 2 insulated garage doors, and added weather stripping to the exterior of the doors.

In terms of cost.
Electricity is about twice the cost of gas. But since I use this only when it is cold, and not alot of hours, it doesn't make sense to install a costly system. I may run the system 6 hours on a weekend. That's about $5 for me. Gas would be 50% of the price, not a big difference.
I run two 4kw units for 1 hour, and then switch one unit off and use it for the much of the remaining time. So for one eight hour day, I use about 30kw-hrs
That's around $5 for me. Gas would be around $2.50 for the day.

My two nice electric heaters cost $300 total. I did the wiring myself, for another $40. As I said, I got two heaters to get a very fast warmup.
I think the gas system would have been 5X the price, including venting, plumber, and the system itself.
With electric, I also don't have to worry that I am adding any moisture to the room.

Lastly, if I want to heat my woodworking shop, I just have to unplug and move the unit to the shop.


Jonathan







jonathan

Kris,

Speaking of "up front". Make sure you have plenty of ventilation when needed in your garage. You can get the garage so tight that solvents,paint,gasoline and exhaust fumes can be deadly in a short period of time.

Insulation is costly up front but well worth the price over the long term.

Someone mentioned getting two 5kw electric heaters. Here in the Northwest we pay on the average about .067 cents a kilowatt, so if those two heaters ran one hour. It would cost about .67 cents or if left on for 24 hours, that would run you $16.08.
More realisticly, if they ran 2 hours a day at 10kw for 30 days, that would cost about $40.00.(10kw X .067 cents x 2 hours x 30 days). Back on the eastcoast, don't you folks pay about 12 cents a kilowatt?

Degree factor is important, I just saw the news where it said in Minnesota somewhere it is -44F. I would suggest, not to work in the garage when the outside temperature is anywhere near that.

I use 2 500watt lights on a portable stand. It give me plenty of light and provides some radiant heat on my back.

Kris have you suggested to your wife if you heated the garage, then she could also benefit by getting into a warm car.

Ray
Ray Ammeter

I have insulated my attached garage, walls and ceiling. There is no built in heat source. I can maintain about 20 degrees over outside temperatures in the winter, and the garage is cooler to work in during the summer. I choose not to work on my MG during winter months, but I have a portable electric heater that will raise the garage temp to above freezing if I want to. A comment about keeping the garage heated all of the time; I was told that heat accelerates the corrosive action of road salt (fact or fiction?), so a car put away in a heated garage after driving on salted roads might suffer the consequences.
George Goeppner

Thank you all for your imput. Certainly a lot of food for thought. I have also inquired about the price of a gas fired radiant tube heater designed for the workshop or garage.
Kris
Kris Sorensen

Ray,
I think I pay more like .15 per kw-hr in the Boston area. I did this garage heating analysis just several months ago vs a gas system.

For me, it all depends upon the usage factor.
I only have the two 4kw heaters to get a fast warmup.
I can maintain the temperature fine with 1 heater under any exterior temperature conditions. The heaters are off most of the time. Only when I want to work on the weekend. If I wanted to work fulltime in the garage or just plain have the heat on all the time, I'd go with gas. Even if I plan to work both weekend days, I leave the heat off after working on Saturday.
For the weekend warrior with a well insulated garage, I think it would take a decade to get the payback for gas. For 30 days of work per year, I'd save about $75 going with gas.


I suppose Kris needs to decide how often he plans to work in the garage.

Another thing, in addition to good ventilation, I've got a well lit area of lights over my car.

I will say that working in a nice warm, and well lit garage makes working on my rust bucket a real pleasure. I was telling this to my wife just this weekend. I know she knows how much I appreciate this.

Jonathan
jonathan

Kris,
About those gas fired tube heaters. You only want something that can be vented outside. That combustion makes lots of water vapor.

By the way, I also considered adding a zone off my oil fired heating system. It has some drawbacks as well, but doesn't have the mositure problem and runs as cheap as gas. The main issue with this, is that the pipes could freeze if you want to turn off the heat.

Jonathan
jonathan

Kris, some good points here.. I installed a Dayton gas furnace that is mounted to the ceiling. Its 60,000 BTU, 120v... I bought it from Granger for approx. $400.00. Mounted it myself, plus ran about 35 feet of gas line.... had the furnace repair man cut the hole in the roof and hookup the vent. he also fired it up and checked for leaks.. All total I believe I spent $600.. Had him check and clean my house furnace also..
My garage is seperated by one 4' wide door opening and one 8' wide opening, both are 8' tall. heater blows toward the 16'x7' overhead garage door (faces north). I insulated this door with 3/4" foil back insulation styrofoam.. works nice. reflect the heat back to ward the cars. so, my floor plan are 25'x22'(double stall),
25'x15' single stall for MGA and 15'x12' workshop. all have 9' ceiling.. wall are all insulated as is the ceiling. furnace remains at 50 degrees except for time that I'm working than I kick it up to 65-70.. reason why you don't want to turn off completely is because some exchangers are cast iron and you don't any condensation to get in ther and than freeze. will carck the exchanger. I didn't go to a electric (ventless) because the condensation has no place to go and one would have to use a dehumidifier. For my wife.. she thinks its great that she can get into a warm car on these freezing midwestern days to go to work.... Mike
mike

Natural gas is probably the cheaper energy source for heating here in the midwest, but I went for electric to avoid any open flame so that I could paint in the shop without risk of explosions. I also wanted the garage system seperate from the house to isolate any fumes from the living space.
Bill Young

I opted for a Solaronics "SunTube" (solaronicsusa.com)propane infrared heating unit. These devices heat objects and not just the surrounding air so things become comfortable pretty quickly. I keep the temperature at around 40/45 degrees F all winter and set it to about 60ish when I go into the garage. Within a few minutes it comfortable enough for me.

I liked the Solaronics system since it's vented in and out and uses no inside air. It's also safe for paint and solvent fumes.

Dave
David Ahrendt

I heated my newly remodeled 21 X 36' garage with a ceiling mounted 220V electric "pump house" heater that I got from Grainger.

I think that electric heat is great from a piece of mind standpoint...no standing pilot or combustable gas if God forbid, Murphy should ever strike.

It is not expensive to run, since I only run it when I am physically in the garage. It's on-demand heat, and warms up the space pretty quick (mine was rated for up to 1400 sq. ft.) which is a good arguement for oversizing the heater initially. It keeps the garage at 60*F all day even in below zero weather outside. I did insulate the walls and ceiling when I remodeled.

I would definately do it again this way.

JIM in NH
Alan (Jim) Mail

Bill Young writes:

> My new workshop/garage is under construction and will have a heater/AC unit installed.

Holy cats! I don't know anybody with an air conditioned *house*, let alone a garage! How hot does it get in Kansas City?
David Breneman

Several years ago my Dad upgraded his oil furnace. He gave me his old one, which I installed in my garage. Even though my house is heated with electric ($$) the builder was thoughtful enough to incorporate a double flue chimney, one for the fireplace, one for the garage, so it was pretty easy to do. Dad even provided a tank (what a guy!). I did put a run into the basement so when I'm heating the garage it supplements the house. Makes those cold winter nights in the garage so much more comfortable. The wife seems to enjoy the added comfort too. Or, perhaps, just the fact that it keeps me happily occupied in the garage!

Cheers, and waiting for spring....
GTF
G T Foster

We usually have at least a month of 90 degree weather with several days over 100. Of course most of the 100+ days are usually the same weekend that I'm working outside at the Kansas City All British Car show. The thermometer is now on the way back up after a week of sub freezing weather with lows in the single digits or below zero. A pretty good swing throughout the year.
Bill Young

For those of you in cold climates (I lived in the Rockies for 20 years)and are building a new shop or, at least pouring a new concrete floor I would recommend that you look closely at radiant in-floor tubing for a heat source. Radiant heat heats objects, not air, so when the heat is on, you are heating the car, your tools, and your body, etc., without fans blowing dust around or burning the dust in the air while heating the next batch of air to be blown into the shop. And when working under the car or laying on the floor, its nice and warm and comfortable, not a heat-draining slab in an otherwise warm room.

These days, you can run a system with a wall mounted tankless heater that runs fairly inexpensively and is not burning fuel when the system is not running. You can get them gas or electric fired and they can supply the hot water for your sink as well.

The initial cost of installation might be a bit more expensive than forced air, but the efficiency and level of comfort is well worth the few extra dollars.

My 2 cents

Randy myers
59 MGA roadster & coupe
Randy Myers

Mine rarely gets below 60 degrees but gets quite hot in the summer. By the way...took a nice drive down route 60 this afternoon to Vero Beach, top down, sun shining about 62 degrees. Sorry guys, but I couldn't resist. I was in your situation until I made the move down here 7 months ago. Got here right before the first hurricane ripped through, followed by two more in the coming weeks. The garage and the "A" came through all 3 of them fine.
Alan Smith

Hi Kris, since we share the same climate I thought I'd tell you what I did. I have a 2 car garage in a four year old condo that I bought new. Since I was buying during the construction phase I was able to spec certain extras. The one thing I did was have the garage walls insulated. Insulated doors came standard so that was a bonus. When I first started working on my car I ran two 1500 watt portable electric heaters in there and it kept the temp quite comfortable during the winter months (sometimes too comfortable and I would shut one down). I only ran them when I was in there and didn't really notice any significant cost increase. The one extra thing I did end up doing was install two dedicated circuits however, one for each heater, to eliminate the periodic breaker overload that ocurred initially. Nothing like being under the car on a creeper just ready to drill that hole in the floorboard and have all the lights go out the second you switch the drill on. It make getting out from under the car and returning to a standing position quite an exercise when you have no orientation as the where up is !!! My plan this summer is to also get the roof of the garage insulated. Why they didn't include that with the walls I don't know. Anyway, it works great !! Good luck !!

Mike
Michael Hosier

This thread was discussed between 17/01/2005 and 26/01/2005

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