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MG MGA - New Stuck Valve Question

I've searched the archives on this but haven't found an answer to match my situation. 50 miles into an engine rebuild by a shop that I no longer trust, I was going up a fairly steep hill in second gear today, about 3000 rpm, when the engine got rough, running on less than all four cylinders. I crested the hill and let off and the engine died. Luckily only about a mile from home I got it restarted and ran roughly all the way home. Checked fuel (OK), ignition (also OK) then pulled the valve cover and found one valve up in the air with the rocker arm canted off to the side and wedged on the top of the valve. The valve cup on the top is chewed up a bit. The valve is the rear one on #2 cylinder (exhaust?). I tried to move the valve/lifter gently by hand but it's pretty tight and I don't want to force anything yet.

Please advise what I should do next.

Thanks,

- Ken ('62 MKII)
Ken Doris

I think I misspoke - the part that is up in the air is the push rod - on the side opposite the valve spring.
- Ken
Ken Doris

I loosened up the valve adjuster and was able to push the pushrod down but it is canted to the side and hard up against the rocker arm assemble post.

What is the likely cause? Is it that the valve is probably stuck and that caused push rod to pop sideways and jam, then get hammered by the rocker arm?

Is my only recourse to pull the head or are there simpler things to try next?

- Ken
Ken Doris

I would pull the rocker assembly off without pulling the head. Take the rocker arm out and check to see that it is straight. You can roll it on a flat surface to see if it rolls "true" You can also use a piece of wood to push down on the valve to see if it goes up and down and does not stick. This should help you to decide what the problem is
JEFF BECKER

Ken - I would bet on a valve stuck and possibly welded in a valve guide. If you had phosphor bronze guides installed, that is probably the cause. Phosphor bronze guides need to have a greater clearance machined in them than the old cast iron guides or they will stick. Once it stuck (probably about half way down), the push rod was shoved past the back of the rocker by the tappet. In addition to getting the valve and guide taken care of, you may have a bent rocker, bent push rod damaged tappet and possible damage to the cam lobe. Sorry, I know that is not what you wanted to hear, I had much the same thing happen to the engine in our Magnette. Good luck - Dave
David DuBois

I wanted bronze guides but the engine rebuiler didn't so he used the "normal" guides. The valve seems to be stuck about half way down as you suggest Dave. I'll do as Jeff suggests and pull the rocker assembly first, but I'm fairly sure the push rod is bent. Hopefully the cam isn't damaged as well.

Jeff - how do I use a piece of wood to push down on the valve? Do I just apply weight using my body?

Hopefully I can get this fixed by GY-30!

- Ken
Ken Doris

I meant GT-30, at Mackinaw!
Ken Doris

Ken, you can take some solice in the fact that exactly the same happened to me late last year (check the archives under 'stuck valve - help'). With less than than 10 miles on the clock I had an exhaust valve stick open, damaging the pushrod.

It's a real pain I know, but I would definitely recommend pulling the head. This way you can be sure that the problem will be resolved and not occur again - possible causing further damage. I too had "normal" guides originally installed and took the opportunity to have bronze guides and hardened inserts fitted (a small consolation for the added effort of removing the head).

Incidently my problem proved not to be the fault of my engine shop, but rather the lube on the valve stem "drying out" after the newly rebuilt engine was run briefly and then left idle (about 9 years) whilst the rest of the car was being rebuilt. Despite this, my engine shop completely rebuilt the head at no cost as a sign of goodwill.

And remember there is light at the end of the tunnel. We had a glorious sunny day here in Perth last weekend and I took my A for its first real 'big' drive. Absolutely magnificant ! Have 400 miles on the clock now and the car just gets better and better with each one !

Steven
Steven Hill

Ken - I would give the rebuilder credit for not using phosphor bronze guides, they can be a real problem it keep them from sticking. It would be interesting to find out what he lubricated the valve stems with when assembling the head. If it was anything other than engine oil or something like STP, that could be the problem. I thought I was being real smart using anti-seize on the valve stems, instead it caused them to stick, actually welding themselves to the guides. As how to apply weight to the wooden block to move the valve stem, it may need to be applied in the form of a 4 pound hammer. Good luck - Dave
David DuBois

Thanks for all the advice guys, I will definitely pull the head and go from there. This engine sat for about 4 or 5 months after the rebuild before being started for the first time, and even then it was only run for seconds by the rebuilder, before I towed it home sans distributer (he used one of his, somehow mine got destroyed when he removed it originally!), cooling, etc. It was another week or so before I put it together with radiator, non-leaking carbs, a working distributer, etc. I "ran it in" per Peter Burgess's website advice (non-detergent 30 wt oil, 15 minutes at 2500 rpm to bed in the camshaft).

I ran into a guy on Saturday who lives nearby and used the same rebuilder back in '97 for his XK-120 Jag. His engine lasted 60 miles before a bearing went. I called him tonite and he gave me the name of a shop that, while he hasn't had work done himself, he believes is competent with MGA's as the owner has one himself. I'll stop by there today (damn, back to work after the long Memorial Day weekend!)and discuss it with them to see what they suggest.

- Ken
Ken Doris

OK, here's what we see now that the head is off:
1. The #2 cyl exhaust valve apparently hit the head. This is the one stuck halfway down with the resultant damage to the pushrod, etc.
2. The #1 intake valve is not seated evenly with the rest of the valves. Apparently its seat was improperly installed.
3. This is the killer - it APPEARS I have all original pistons and rings, and the cylinders were never bored. I was charged for all new parts and labor for this !

I base that last comment about original pistons on the fact that they have "MOWOG" stamped on them. The mechanic now working on the car (an owner of a 1500 himself) tells me that you can't find/buy those anymore. Before I confront the first engine rebuilder with this, does anyone know of a source of original flat top 1622 pistons?

- Ken
Ken Doris

They are occasionally on ebay. It is also possible that the mechanic has ties you don't know about. You state that the cylinders were never bored. Do they look good? You should see cross-hatch hone marks throughout on all the cylinders. You should also measure them (in several places on each cylinder). I think that if you go back to the mechanic and 'discuss' this, as well as the problem that you are presently experiencing, you should get some satisfaction, especially if you mention that you will go to the state licensing bureau. Document and take pictures of everything.
Good luck.
mike parker

If the work was not done as you say, do what Mike said, the top of the bore should be be worn and when measured it should be bigger than the bottom of the bore. Good luck!!!!
JEFF BECKER

Ken,
The very top of the cylinder (the top 1/4 inch) will not be worn, but Jeff is correct regarding the rest of the cylinder. If you had high mileage on the pre-rebuild engine, you should have had a ridge on each cylinder, which should not be there after a rebuild. If you have good cross hatching and your cylinders are true throughout, then the machinist did something in there. 50 miles into the new engine your cross hatching should be very sharp and distinct.
mike parker

Ken; Did the original mechanic offer the old parts back to you? What are the oversize markings on the MOWOG pistons? Knowing this you can see if he actually did bore and replace the pistons.
Sandy Sanders
conrad sanders

Mike, the shop could have used a ridge rimmer and just put on new rings. Find a good shop and document everything you find. Just in case you have to go to court.
JEFF BECKER

The original mechanic "threw out" all the parts. Jeff & Mike - good advice - I will document everything and also see what options I have for replacing rings, etc. while the engine is opened up.

On the brighter side, my new mechanic has both a Magnette and an "A" and is planning to drive the Magnette to Brits by the Sea in CT tomorrow. He's offered to loan me his A to join him!

- Ken
Ken Doris

Just to clarify an earlier post of mine - the #2 INTAKE (not exhaust) valve kissed the top of the BLOCK (not head). One of the arguments I had with the previous rebuilder was that of replacing ALL of the valves. He told me he only replaced ONE intake valve because the rest looked good !

Oh, one other thing, actually some good newsfor me. Awhile back I posted a question about whether early MKII engines could have a 15 stamped on the head. I found one archive item that indicated at least one other owner had that type of head. Well, when we pulled my head I saw it definitely had the large combustion chambers, and the milling was precise indicating it was done at the factory. We compared it with a 1600 head the mechanic had that had been altered to the MKII configuration, and there the milling was slightly different from cylinder to cylinder.

One final note. My car was one of the first MKII's built, with a birthdate of April 1961 - GHNL2-100870. In addition to the "odd" cylinder head, it also has an odd transmission. The MKII transmission housing has strengthening ribs, mine doesn't, but does have an identical configuration to the Twin Cam transmission. Since I now believe I have an all-original car (bought it in 1968 with about 35K miles on it), I'm guessing some of the early production MKII's may have been built with left over transmissions as well. Just a theory, but I think it makes some sense

- Ken
Ken Doris

Well, more news on how the engine was rebuilt at Sports Car Haven (St. James, NY). Seems like most/all of the valves and tappets were NOT replaced with new components as I requested (and was charged for). This seems to be the case of a guy set in his ways. He said He didn't want to replace anything that didn't need replacing - I asked him to put in all new parts. Passive resistance perhaps, but he decided to charge me for the new parts, but do what he wanted - re-use the old.

Sigh!

I'm hoping now to get the car back on the road next week and finish it up for Mackinaw (1000 miles each way, Yikes!)

- Ken
Ken Doris

Yes, some early MK-II's did have the Twin Cam type gearbox.

More than half of the MK-II cars were built before the reinforced bellhousing was introduced.

Barney
Barney Gaylord

That really pisses me off. I work as a mechanic myself and I cannot stand all the rednecks and white trash in this business. If he used the old parts, but charged for new, that is stealing. I see some of this crap go on at my work sometimes. People wonder why mechanics have the reputation they have. I have already decided that when time comes, I am out of this business. I make a good living, but I cannot stand the sliminess at times. Just a rant, sorry. You need to throw this guy under the largest bus you can find and demand money for the "new parts". What a redneck piece of trash!
Emmanuel Kafant

Emmanuel,
While I agree that this type of service is unjustifiable, and I understand the locale you're from, I don't believe that we can call the mechanic "redneck" or "white trash".
I think that Ken needs to speak to either the owner of the shop, who probably is and always has been aware of the rebuild, or the state regulation bureau.
As a state certified mechanic myself since 1987, I have had the privilege of watching shoddy workmanship and have paid a good price for work that I was too lazy to do, only to have the mechanic totally botch the job.
I also know that many of the people on this board are not totally mechanical, but if I can offer a word of advice, Everyone who owns a classic automobile, truck or motorcycle owes it to himself or herself to learn the mechanics of the hobby. It will pay great dividends in the long run and will add a new dimension to your hobby that you may really enjoy.
mike parker

Mike,

Just to clarify why I decided to have the engine rebuilt by someone else. At the time I started (Jan 2004) I was hoping to take the car to GT-29. It had been sitting in my garage since 1973. Before parking the car back then I had kept it running for 6 years with my own (limited) mechanical skills (see my story of fixing the fuel pump at http://home.mindspring.com/~kdoris/mga/id4.html)

I didn't "pay a good price for work I was too lazy to do.." I just wanted to get the car done as quickly as possible, and chose a fellow who was listed on this website (http://www.mgcars.org.uk/garages/New_York.html ) and was also recommended by a local TD owner (later found that the TD fellow never had work done by this shop).

During the restoration I did as much as possible myself, including much of the body and paint, all of the electical and interior, rebuild of the instruments, etc. Unfortunately, I "farmed out" the engine work.

Now I'm in the position of trying to make GT-30. Again, I don't think I am being lazy by having another shop fix the engine. With a full time job (averaged over 70 hrs per week in May) I can't do it in time.

Sorry for the rant!

Barney - thanks for the info on the transmission. Often times people read Clausager and take it as gospel.

- Ken

Ken Doris

Ken,
This was not a slam against you, but rather for those who think that they can buy a classic car without having to do the maintenance or knowing the cost of outside service. I stated that 'I' was too lazy to do the job and it cost me a great deal more than it should have. BTW, I assume that you are going around the horn through Pennsylvania to Mackinaw. If you or anyone else has trouble during the trip, I am in the Detroit area, and may be able to help. My cell # is 586.855-7076. Please anybody who calls, leave a message.
mike parker

Mike - sorry I took it the wrong way. It is true that many do buy these cars and just rely on good mechanics to keep them running well.
For GT-30 we are planning to take the north route through New York into Canada, hoping to hook up with some of the "Hoser A's" that we met at Watkins Glen last September. I really appreciate the offer of help and hope that I won't need any for the trip.

- Ken
Ken Doris

OK - this just gets stranger and stranger. When the head came back from the machine shop this week, the machinist was outraged along with the rest of us. When he took out the valves he saw marks along the stems that appear to be where they were belt sanded! His theory is that after the previous mechanic (Steve Wang, Sports Car Haven, St. James NY) put in new guides, the guides were too tight for the old valves, so he made the valve stems smaller by hand! I'm amazed the engine held together even for the 55 miles or so I drove it.

Also found my oil leak - the spin on adapter he put on is cracked!

Yikes! What a butcher job!

- Ken
Ken Doris

Ken
Sorry to hear of your problem with shady mechanics and dishonest people..sounds like the crook I dealt with in montreal,Pierre Denault..Classiceuroauto..what a sham ..still owes me money, stole parts from my XKE, mt friend's AH and he's STILL in business..but everyone in the Montreal/Nothern NY area knows about him now, only the unsuspecting out- of- towners are getting sucked in...but the way I see it I bought this Ahole's soul for 5 K.
All the best
John Coryea
63XKE
58 MGA roadster
59 MGA coupe
s john

John,

Yep, I guess this type of jerk can be exist outside of NY as well :)

The latest news is I called him and told him I was starting a law suit and he claims he didn't actually do the rebuild, even though he charged me for it and gave me a detailed parts list. He won't say who did the work however. He says he's shocked, etc. and will make good - yeah, right, just a delaying tactic.

On the brighter side, we drove the car 150 miles last weekend and it ran fine. Felt like we were 25 again (the age we were when we first bought the car!) Still don't trust it to do a 2000 mile round trip to Mackinaw (we'll drive there in another car), but will continue to sort out lesser problems through the summer and plan on taking it to Watkins Glen in September.

- Ken
Ken Doris

Ken,
Take the car and do a 5 hour drive. If the mechanicals make that, it will make a 2000 mile drive to Macinaw. Note that your tires and brakes have to be good too, but I think that it will prove the car.
Good luck.
mike parker

This thread was discussed between 30/05/2005 and 02/07/2005

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