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MG MGA - None genuine brake cylinders

Doe's anyone have experience of fitting none genuine brake cylinders, I'm fitting a pair at the moment that I bought through eBay and I'm thinking that I may have made a mistake, the hand brake lever would seem to limit the travel of the piston to about half that of the ones that they are replacing.
I'm worried that it may add to a problem that was already there in as much as one side was fully adjusted up to get a decent brake even though there was plenty of meat left on the shoes and the drum doesnt look to be excessively worn, any ideas Cheers Vin
Vin Rafter

Vin, I posted this a while back and didn't find the answer.

I will ask the question again, as your post fits perfectly!

"I was just browsing through Holdens website and I noticed three very similar (pictures look identical) rear brake cylinders for MGA, Morris Minor and early Spridgets. I noticed that they were very different prices too, MGA highest of course.

The three part numbers are MGA GWC1111, Minor GWC1116 and Spridget GWC1114.

OK, now for my point. As they look the same I assume that they may all fit MGA? If so are they different lengths?
And if that is the case, could incorrect parts be fitted to the MGA making it difficult or impossible to adjust the rear brakes?

The reason I ask is that there have been several posts where people have not been able to adjust rear brakes and a shorter slave cylinder would be an obvious culprit, however, this has not been suggested before.

Anyone?"

Neil
Neil McGurk

Hello Neil, Thank you for your reply, the cylinders I bought on ebay were listed as "Triumph TR2/ MGA GWC 111" and to be honest its not that I think I have the wrong ones (unless you tell me otherwise)its that I think I have been a bit of a tight wad and bought cheep copys,the castings dont look as sharp as they might and the hand brake lever has a very limited amount of travel inside the cylinder,I think at my age I should know better,BUY CHEEP,GET CHEEP,LOL
Cheers Vin
Vin Rafter

Stop Messing about with your life.

Last year a garage I used slackened off the shell ratchet drum adjusters without me knowing. The brakes worked fine the slack being taken up with the pistons expanding to fill the slack. Then the seal on the piston touches the handbrake leaver arm and nicks a neat cut resulting in loss of brakes.

In attempting to fix the problem I purchased new seals and rebuilt the cylinders But the seal kit was not the same as the cylinders that I had Purchased from Moss's several years earler although the piston seal appeared to fit. But it soon became apparent that if I was to be able to adjust the brakes up corectly without the piston expanding to much I would need new Drums. The old Drums were only slightly worn but new brake linings are bonded on to the steel shoes and are a lot thinner that the old linnings that are riveted on. I have since found that you can get larger shell ratchet adjusters that help take up the slack and are worth having.

This all happend last summer I have subsequently had a slow fluid leak which was not spotted in the MOT or by my self as I had stupidly put carpet on the floor of the workshop. I also stupidly had not checked the fluid level since fitting the new rubbers. Result fluid level dropped and I had no brakes Luckly I was just reversing out of the garage and no damage was done.


Please Fit all and I mean all new parts when repairing your brakes I am now on my third set of linnings and Two new cylinders which I purchased from Brown and Gammonds so I could be reasonaby shure that they were the right ones I also needed to fit new bleed nipples and holders as there was some weeping from the nipple as well. The cost was £200 which I now consider not to much I have now lost confidence in the system and wonder about fitting Fluid warning lights and some kind of failsafe crossover system dose any one have any thoughts

David

David
David swaine

David, thanks for your comment I must say that I had not given the idea of the riveted shoes being thicker than the bonded ones a second thought, but in hindsight it makes sence and puts some of my issues in perspective, can you tell me where I can get hold of the larger adjusters, Cheers, Vin
Vin Rafter

Could you silver solder a steel spacer under the Mask - Adjuster (item 84 M5 - Workshop manual) to reduce the brake shoe clearance so the Adjuster works mid range rather than at the upper limit?
Mike
Mike Ellsmore

Vin

I will have to look through my latest bills but it would only have been Moss or Brown and Gammonds as these are the only people I use.I have looked through there catalogue and they only seem to list one perhaps I had the wrong ones to start with. To add further the new shell adjusters were about a 1/4 of an inch higher then the ones I originally had. As you see the trouble with all this is we dont know what we have in the first instance.mine may have been the wrong ones when I inherited the car .or the new ones may have been made bigger to compensate for the thinner linings. I would give them a phone and and ask them to measure them.

David
David swaine

Vin and David:

If either of you find out the dimensions of these shell adjusters, I’d like to know as well. I have the same problem with my MGA. I even put new rear drums on, thinking the old ones had been turned too many times. (I only gained 1 click worth of adjustment). Definitely not worth the investment!

Thanks!

Glen
Glen Perchie

Guys,
A friend of mine had what sounds like the same issue and found that there was problem with rear cylinders from Moss (and perhaps others). If I recall correctly, there is a slot machined in the piston that the emergency brake lever rides against. That slot was machined to the wrong dimension. My friend went round and round with the sales folks at Moss about this. He finally got to a technical person who understood what he was talking about. I need to ask him what he did to get it resolved. I may have a photo that shows this.
Regards,
Gerry
G T Foster

That would be great!

Thanks Gerry!

Glen
Glen Perchie

All this is very interesting and very worring.I hsve just been out in the garage to try to find the original snail cams to mesure them and at the moment can not find them . The new larger snail cams came from Moss the part no is 7H7931 and they call them Adjuster Micrams. cost £12.34 each.

What worries me is that we are able to purchase stuff that simply is unsafe. I must say that my original cylinder came from Moss at least 10 years ago when I did the rebuild. As I said before I purchased the new cylinders from Brown & Gammons as the have a work shop and are unlikly to fit incorrect parts or at least know if something is not as it should be.

Glen I like you found that the new drums only worth a couple of clicks and the old adjusters were on full. but the new ones are at about 1/3 into the cam As I said I cant find the original ones but if it helps they were about 5/8'' and the new ons are about 7/8'' in dia.

In groveling around in the garage I did find the original riveted shoes I wish I had sent them away to be redone in the original material. Hindsight is a wonderfull thing but that is the joy of running a 50 year old car.

HAS ANYONE RIGGED UP A FLUID WARNING SYSTEM? Dose the MGB have some float switch arangment on the cap


David
David swaine

Fluid level indicators/sensors:
http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/hydraulics/ht202.htm
http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/hydraulics/ht202a.htm
http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/hydraulics/ht202b.htm
Barney Gaylord

I too have the same problem. My adjuster is on the last click. Has anybody tried welding up the the slot in the adjuster which would allow you to back off the adjuster?
WMR Bill

Thanks Barney I should have just gone straight to your site. I will probably try to purchase the comercially produced brake fluid indicator cap .are they redily available DOSE ANY ONE KNOW WHERE TO PURCHASE ONE ?

Barney while you are obviously monitering the MGA site can I ask if it is possible to rig up a cross over brake line system maybe with a valve in the system so in the event of a cylinder failer two of the four still work.

Obviously it would be nice to see if any ony else had done somthing like this so I ask the Question thats the fun of it all


All the best David
David swaine

David, a quick search has found 2 ready-made solutions to the brake fluid monitor. The first is a period accessory and shown on Barney's 3rd link. Apparently made of un-obtainium. A Lockheed original:

http://www.v8register.net/subpages/lockheedbrakefluidwarninglight1.htm

The second is a more high-tech and complete solution:

http://www.teelectronics.co.uk/OH3509.htm

Either these or Barney's DIY variations should do the trick.

Chuck

Chuck Schaefer

Glen, following a comment made earlier in the thread by mike ellsmore,
This is the way I have gone, I have cut a couple of spacers of 5mm (one for each wheel) and fitted them (with small tack welds) to the bottom of the mask’s, this has had the effect of raising the adjuster and gaining me 10 more clicks of adjustment than I had before, and resulting in a higher pedal witch was my original concern, I will try to upload a couple of photos if I don’t cock it up. I think a thing to be aware of though is that with wear it is likely that the shoe could rise above the flat on the back plate allowing it to cockle over under pressure from the retaining springs and affect the breaking, I hope that makes sense, Cheers Vin



Vin Rafter

and


Vin Rafter

for some reason i cant upload another photo
Vin Rafter

try again


Vin Rafter

and 1 more
Vin Rafter

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Vin Rafter

David, thanks so much for the dimensions of the cam measurements. Vin, thanks for the spacer idea. It makes perfect sense to me. I also understand the concern about the backplate shoe rests. (The pictures downloaded great for me)

It's a shame we have to deal with this problem!

Glen
Glen Perchie

Thanks Vin, I always thought this was a simple solution to what seems to be a common problem. Barney do you have any comment on this solution?
Regards
Mike
Mike Ellsmore

I only ran into the problem of "loose" brake shoes once, about 15 years ago. I then bought brake shoes from a different supplier, and have never seen the problem since. At the time I never bothered to investigate the cause of the problem. Maybe the old problem has come back to haunt us again (or maybe not).

Lets figure out what the problem is before we jump in with both feet to blame the suppliers. I haven't seen any measurement dimensions noted here yet. For those of you who do have this problem I would appreciate it if you would measure the lining thickness. I currently have in my possession two brands of brake shoes, Lockheed with riveted linings and ABS with bonded linings. They are both 3/16-inch thick (0.180-0.190), and they both fit and work okay.

If your linings are 3/16" thick, and you still have the problem, then measure inside diameter of the brake drums. Those should be 10-inches (10.000") diameter (originally). Circumference equals PI x Dia. It is common to allow 0.030" oversize for turning the drums. They are however sometimes found to be up to 0.060" oversize (10.060" ID). In this case 0.060" x 3.1416 = 0.188" increase of circumference, which is getting very close to the 5-mm thickness of Vin's tack welded build-up pad. So 0.060" oversize drums will definitely cause that problem.

Incidentally, linings worn just 1/32" (0.030") on the radius will also get to the same point on the adjuster, so there is not much latitude for turning the drums oversize. With oversize drums you have to change the brake shoes more often. This is less of a problem on the front drum brakes where you have two adjusters.
Barney Gaylord

Chuck

Thanks for your info I am trying to contact T E electronics as I also like the idea of it being audible. I hope they come back to me I also hope it no too expensive but I have got to tell you the last two failers have frightend me some what I will have to pay for peace of mind.


David
David swaine

This thread was discussed between 15/08/2009 and 24/08/2009

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