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MG MGB GT V8 Factory Originals Technical - British V8 2005 Track Day
| The British V8 2005 Track Day will be on Friday June 10th at Putnam Park Road Course. The track is awesome. 1.8 miles long, 10 turns, chicane and fast straight on the start finish side. To attend this great track day, a charge of $125 will be the cost if you are registered for the British V8 2005 event or $150 if not registered and want to just attend the track day only. Like all track days, a helmet is mandatory with a Snell rating of SA95 or newer. Plus, for all Roadsters or convertible vehicles, a roll hoop or roll bar is mandatory. GT’s, coupes, sedans with steel roof do not need roll bars or roll hoops to drive on the track. We will also be inviting other Performance car owners to attend this track day. Ranging from Lotus’s, Corvette’s, Porsche’s, Mustangs, Cobra’s, Viper’s, to name but a few. Should be interesting to see how our V8’s, V6’s and modified British Cars perform against the competition !! Check out Putnam’s website below for a track map and other details. www.Putnampark.com Plus keep checking back on this BBS or www.britishv8.org for further updates and developments. Only 6 months to go to the ‘Driving Experience of 2005’ :) Cheers Pete Mantell 1969 MGB 302 V8 Contact details below: Pete "Larry" Mantell pjmantell@prairieinet.net 217-688-2463 Rick "Moe" Ingram mowog1@aol.com 217-469-2007 Dave "Curly Joe" Kirkman mg.kirkman@verizon.net 812-239-9303 The Three Stooge Coordinators for V8 2005! |
| PJ Mantell |
| Curly Joe? What happened to BIG DADDY? |
| PJ Mantell |
| Yo Larry, Sign Barney up! Can't wait, when do you need the money? Is Moe's car going to be ready? I'm expecting headers today! SC |
| Steve Carrick |
| Pete, Putnam Park sounds like a blast - unfortunately for some of us without roll bars, we'll be relegated to spectator capacity. My need for speed will have to be satisfied at Wabash Valley dragstrip. Steve, Are you suggesting that the much anticipated blue oval headers will be here in time for Christmas! Hallelujah!....I'll sharpen up the tinsnips. |
| Graham Creswick |
| Graham... You really should loosen the purse-strings and get a roll bar installed in your conversion. Not just for track day, but for your own peace of mind. Granted, some roll bars are purely cosmetic, but every little bit helps...consider it an upgrade...you do not want to miss Putnam Park! Moe |
| rick ingram |
| Steve! Show me the money! As you well know...advance funds help out CONSIDERABLY! Contact me offlist... We will ahve hotel info, a registration form, and other info (can you say VERY special guests?!) available soon! Moe Yes..the V8 under construction for HOW FRICKIN' LONG?! bRick ps.. Graham...Buy a damned roll bar. PVC does not count. (Well..maybe if it is hidden with foam and duct tape...well...maybe not, too!) rki |
| Moe |
| I will not be able to attend, but being one of the "trees" of the group, I must say something about the rollbar issue. I did not take offense at anything, just trying to enlighten... Yes I do want and believe a rollbar is an almost manditory thing with any soft-top sportscar. BUT, a rollbar simply is not an option for some of us. Simply put the only way I can fit in the car especially with any top on it is to have my seat back reclined a good bit which puts my head right where the rollbar goes. I have considered custom bars or hoop like the Z3 etc, but to be tall enough to provide any protection will mean that no top will ever fit on the car. So for some of us it is more than "loosening the pursue strings". What would be cool is a "GT" conversions style windscreen and matching top that puts the roofline up to that of a GT, though not a hatchback.... |
| Larry Embrey |
| What about the detachable hardtop? Does or would that satisfy the requirements? It is fiberglass (but then so is a hardtop Corvette). The roll bar that fits with the convertible top up is only a 4-point attachment (I have that one) and it is not considered a legal roll bar with some sanctioning bodies. They have changed the rules for modern production convertibles in allowing them to run into the 11’s at the drag strip with no roll bar. |
| Michael S. Domanowski |
| "re: What about the detachable hardtop? Does or would that satisfy the requirements? It is fiberglass (but then so is a hardtop Corvette)." No, I'm sure that the track officials will still require a roll hoop or roll bar. At least that's how the contract reads. (But, I would be a happy camper if they would authorize the use of only a fibreglass hardtop!) "The roll bar that fits with the convertible top up is only a 4-point attachment (I have that one) and it is not considered a legal roll bar with some sanctioning bodies." We do not have to meet a sanctioning body, only the requirements of the rental agreement as stated by the owners of Putnam Park. I believe that your roll bar would satisfy the requirements of Putnam Park officials for our track time. "They have changed the rules for modern production convertibles in allowing them to run into the 11’s at the drag strip with no roll bar." As far as I am aware, there is no requirement for a roll hoop or roll bar for the Wabash Valley Drag Strip that we will be visiting on Saturday morning, June 11th. rick "Moe" Ingram |
| rick ingram |
| NHRA has lowered thier tech specs, but not that far. 13.49 is as fast as you can run with a soft-top and no roll-bar. and That I was told was done because many of the modern convertibles run in that speed range... I also have one of those bolt in 4 point bars and that would probably let me run into the mid 12's within NHRA specs, but again, I can;t fit in the car.. I also have a factory hardtop and I have considered putting that on for track days and seeing what they will allow.... |
| Larry Embrey |
| Hey Rick, "Not just for track day, but for your own peace of mind. Granted, some roll bars are purely cosmetic, but every little bit helps." I don't think so. As you know, my B has one of those "cosmetic" bolt-on roll bars. It was already installed when we bought the car 16 years ago. I liked the look and left it. I am quite certain in the event that I rolled the car, that bar would rip loose and beat my brains out. The problem is there is nothing substantial to even weld it to being unibody construction. I do hope the bolt-on bar will pass tech, cause I luv track days!! :):) They won't let me run with this bar at VIR, though. :( Anyway, from the archives here's what Roger Parker had to say on this subject: Posted 30 September 1998 at 23:43:19 UK time by Roger Parker I have been to several thousand accidents over the last 28 years. Over 150 of them being fatal. Three specific single vehicle accidents with MGB's involved overturning. Two cars were fitted with the usual aftermarket rollover hoop mounted behind the seats by way of four 'feet'. One of these had them welded to the frame of the car. The other car had no protection. Both the cars with the roll bars had them ripped out of the car along with sections of the body. The one welded in saw the hoop bent backwards towards the rear of the car.All cars were single occupancy and all were killed through head injuries. I have been to other roll overs that didn't involve fatal injuries with cars not fitted with a roll bar. My observations are that the usual 'cosmetic' type of bars offer little real protection for two very clear reasons. 1, The strength of the bar is contained only in one plane, that is if the car is to roll over directly sideways. In reality during accidents the angle of roll is variable and usually has more relationship to the direction of travel. This means that the direction of travel is 90 degrees away from the strongest plane for these roll bars. 2, The spacing of the achorages is too close, and is done to ease fitting and reduce disturbance to the rest of the vehicle. Mostly these are then bolted to the car using washers to spread the load. Even when welded this still doesn't offer sufficient achorage strength. To me there is no clear safety advantage in this type of roll bar. It does provide a mental support though. On that subject if there is one then decent padding is a requirement otherwise even in normal use you WILL bang your head. In a minor accident an unpadded bar easily makes this a serious accident. I feel that the only decent roll over protection is from those safety systems approved by the FIA. Obviously those super cages do work, but there are other 'Club Racing' FIA approved types of much lesser construction, but with additional bracing that actually takes into account the variable loadings from different directions during a roll over. Rog. |
| Carl Floyd |
| NHRA has lowered thier tech specs, but not that far. 13.49 is as fast as you can run with a soft-top and no roll-bar. and That I was told was done because many of the modern convertibles run in that speed range... Larry It was just in the last issue or so of either Hot Rod or Motor Trend. They (NHRA) will allow newer (read 04) convertibles (can you say 04 Mustang Cobra) to run into the 11's without any additional safety equipment. I'll look it up over the weekend and get back to you. |
| Michael S. Domanowski |
| It would be very difficult to create a roll structure for the B which would truely protect the driver in a rollover without creating some real usability issues, and possibly mandating the use of a helmet for everyday driving. There just isn't that much room to work with, and with no frame to attach to, fabrication gets more difficult. As noted, having steel bars in the cockpit necessitates either padding, a helmet, or both, and the resulting blockage of vision sight lines is a further complication. That's not to say it can't be done. Rules being what they are, to participate some sort of bar is needed. I too have a hardtop but it would be folly to think it would offer any significant protection in a rollover. More likely it would shear the fasteners and slide right out from under the car, taking whatever was in the way with it. Undoubtedly the anchor points of the rollbar are the issue, and although there are some double thickness areas available to tie into, that's still not really enough. However for someone determined to do it, a good method would be to begin by plating (applying an additional layer of sheet metal welded to the underlying sheet) large areas of the cockpit rear including the trunk bulkhead, adding additional stiffeners at the top of the bulkhead and inside the trunk, angled from the top of the bulkhead down and to the rear, plating the frame rail box sections where those stiffeners attach, going back inside the cockpit and adding additional layers of plating growing progressively smaller in area back towards the attachment points, welding these securely to the underlying layers, and taking care to triangulate the plating, taking in the frame rail box sections, the edges of the floor pan, the sidewalls of the cockpit, the vertical and horizontal areas of the shelf, and preferrably tying into the transmission tunnel at the center. The shelf should be tied into the trunk bulkhead as well, and at the mount points there should be at least 1/4 to 5/16" of material thickness, and grade 8 hardware and backup fender washers used, although a backup plate would be better. With the attachment points at the top of the frame rail box sections this would mean cutting into the box before plating to add the backup plate with captured nuts and then rewelding the box. The rollbar anchor plates should be gusseted to the bar as well, and a brace from as high as practical on the rear legs should run to the anchor point on the bulkhead where the braces inside the trunk attach. A diagonal brace should be a part of the rollbar structure also. To me, that's the only sort of rollbar worth adding because anything less is, as mentioned, cosmetic. And the problem with a cosmetic bar is that it gives one a false sense of security, encouraging more aggressive driving than would otherwise be considered. Now should anyone decide to take on the fabrication of such a bar, I would encourage you to make and save templates of all the plating pieces you form and fit, as I would imagine there would be at least a limited market for such a structure, or at least for the patterns. I for one would be interested. But I don't suppose I'll get to race at Putnam (RATS!!), 'cause I don't have a bar and see no sense in a cosmetic one. It's disappointing of course, especially as I no longer regularly travel any good twisty roads locally, but I'm just going to concentrate on the radiator for now, build the MS EFI controller to replace the EEC-IV, then move on to the IRS. By the time I'm done with all that maybe someone else will have taken this idea and run with it. Jim |
| Jim Blackwood |
| Hiya jim First, are you the same Jim Blackwood with a MGB V8 that haunts the megasquirt forums? It's funny, I see a bunch of the same names on the yahoo lists and forums for MGB V8, Capri, Locost, and Megasquirt. Anyway, to the point. There are 2 things to consider for rollover protection w/ a roll hoop. The first, as you've indicated, is to secure the hoop to the shell. The second is to make sure the hoop actually protacts the driver. Most don't. Actually, the first problem is not that tough to solve-plating pick up points on sills and subframes is common practiice- my MGB we've cut notches in the rear bulkhead and run the rear diagonals through the bulkhead into the rear frame horns. The diagonal in the plane of the hoop is easy. Problem is, most hoops try to fit under the hood. A friend has one and his head sticks above it, but it's low to clear the top. Most harness' won't hold the driver down enough to prevent injury event even if they sit lower than the bar. You want a roll hoop that's more than window dressing, you need to at least look at the SCCA GCR's |
| greg fast |
| Well said greg fast. I would like to add that FIA is not as strick as SCCA rules for a roll bar/cage on touring cars. Remember that the MGB weakest link is the rear portion of the tub. To have a safe roll bar/cage it must be attached to a subframe if possible and the body panels, and be of the correct seemless tubing .95 or thicker by 1/ 1/2 or 1 5/8 dending on the hp and weitgh rating. When I used to race my B RD I cut the floor pan to lower the seat and fit the SCCA legal roll cage. Drag racing roll bar safety can't be compare to Road Racing safety, different needs. Tracks request roll bar on open cars for insurance reasons, they don't care how it's attached, that responsibility falls on the tech inspection of the organization responsible for the event. That is the way it's in Ca. The track does not want to be responsible for the liability. Not to sacare anyone. This year a sanction group here in Ca. had a fatalaty. During lunch period, at a organized events a fee is charge to allowed cars in to the track and speeds that are usually 55 mph or lower. This is done to let family and friends see what is like to drive on the track. This person decided to go faster and lost the car it in one of the turns. Going fast requires some level of skill specially on a high power short wheel base, narrow track car. hp is not the name of the game, in the road course, safety, handiling, ability. are some of the important factors of going fast. Dont want to upset anyone. I love the sport and I have a great respect for it. |
| Bill Guzman |
| re: hp is not the name of the game, in the road course, safety, handling, <and> ability are some of the important factors of going fast. Bill, this is probably the best statement in this entire thread, in my opinion. Thanks! rick |
| rick ingram |
| Bill- you may be able to save a few pounds by thinning that 0.95 wall 1 1/2" tubing down to 0.095 wall. Hell of alot easier to bend, too, and still comples w/ the GCR's. IIRC Grassroots Motorsport, on their rotary Spitfire, decided to screw the idea of keeping the hoop under the hood, and used the hoop as part of the hood frame. Looked a little geeky, but it was a real hoop and they still got some weather protection- like that's actually needed in Florida. Although there are these hurricane things........ |
| greg fast |
| Bill- just read the second half of your post. While I now live in michigan, I'm aware of the incident at Buttonwillow you're refering to (assuming there wasn't another incident). I raced with that sanctioning body when I lived in Cali, and also assisted in providing flagging (I shared course marshall responsibilies). There was some discussion about the incident with some friends who worked the event when I was home in October. Personal opinion here- the three sanctioning bodies that I've run with that permit the practice have let it run out of control. This is not the first on-track incident with the sanctioning body on the lunchtime drive arounds. For the guys driving at Putnum- a word of advice. If it looks like you can't make a turn, and you're not looking at Aarmco or K-rail, just relax and drive it off. Let it drift off, get out of the throttle and lightly brake. Most of the production cars I see that are on their head is because the driver was sure he could reel it in and keep it on track, and hooks a wheel on the edge of the tarmac. During a 4weekend block 3 years ago, I was turn marshall three times where cars got inverted and Alfa, Elan, and LoCort) in the best of circumstances, they went home on a trailer- the worst the guy reshelled the car. So Relax and have fun. There's no prize for leaving with the most messed up bodywork. |
| greg fast |
| Bill- just read the second half of your post. While I now live in michigan, I'm aware of the incident at Buttonwillow you're refering to (assuming there wasn't another incident). I raced with that sanctioning body when I lived in Cali, and also assisted in providing flagging (I shared course marshall responsibilies). There was some discussion about the incident with some friends who worked the event when I was home in October. There were 2 bodies in the car. Personal opinion here- the three sanctioning bodies that I've run with that permit the practice have let it run out of control. This is not the first on-track incident with the sanctioning body on the lunchtime drive arounds. For the guys driving at Putnum- a word of advice. If it looks like you can't make a turn, and you're not looking at Aarmco or K-rail, just relax and drive it off. Let it drift off, get out of the throttle and lightly brake. Most of the production cars I see that are on their head is because the driver was sure he could reel it in and keep it on track, and hooks a wheel on the edge of the tarmac. During a 4weekend block 3 years ago, I was turn marshall three times where cars got inverted and Alfa, Elan, and LoCort) in the best of circumstances, they went home on a trailer- the worst the guy reshelled the car. So Relax and have fun. There's no prize for leaving with the most messed up bodywork. |
| greg fast |
| oops |
| greg fast |
| Just found the information in the October 2004 issue of Hot Rod. Bottom of the page on page 44 Rodding at Random...new lower NHRA ET limit 11.50 for stock convertibles with NO safety equipment. |
| Michael S. Domanowski |
| Greg: Yes, one and the same. I've also been a participant on the TwEECer and Binder Bulletin boards and occasionally some others. Most recent posts have dealt with EFI in one way or another, but this thing about safety couldn't be more important. As anyone who has done much motorcycle riding can tell you, to maintain even the least semblance of control you have to keep the wheels turning, and this becomes most critical when you encounter an uneven surface, such as when exiting the pavement. Greg's advice could not be more pertinent to the discussion about roll bars. If you maintain control you can make a safe stop and any driver who has any business being on a track is smart enough to know when his wheels are about to go over the edge. In the interest of preserving life, limb, and the pursuit of happiness it is at these times that you simply must turn into the slide, despite the fact that it will take you off course. However, if any chance of returning the car's travel to a forward direction is already lost, it's far more prudent to go the other way and get a straight shot at going over the edge backwards. The one thing you do not want to do is to hit a rut going dead sideways with the brakes locked up. I would highly recommend the sport of whitewater rafting to anyone who drives competitively, as it quickly teaches skills which stand you in good stead should you leave the course. It also teaches you what happens when you hit things. The idea of using the rollbar as part of the top frame is a good one, the challenge being to keep enough of the original frame to keep form in the top without making it a pain to use. Obviously if the hoop can be up against the fabric it's going to give better protection. There is a good bit of justification for a single hoop behind the driver's seat. (adequately braced of course) This makes it easier to get as much height as possible, while lessening intrusion into otherwise usable space. The plating issues remain pretty much the same. Greg, what's the spec for thickness of the attachment plates? I would think at least 3/16". Jim |
| Jim Blackwood |
| Micheal - OK, that is new info. I do Know that they lowered the general convertible specs to 13.49 this year, that must be an additional addendum for the new cars... RE HARDTOPS - yes I know it is complete BS that the fiberglass hardtop would to anything but shatter upon roll over. I reall don;t plan to race the MG much, but it would be nice to be able to get one day on the track and run her full tilt to see just what she can do without having to work around the 13.49 limitation... |
| Larry Embrey |
| A comment on hardtops: I bought a totaled midget many years ago. Driver lost control, car rolled & slid over 60' on the fiberglass hardtop until stopped by a utility pole. The driver who was not wearing a seat belt was killed when his head impacted the same utility pole after first going through the windshield. Although cracked in 3 places, the hardtop was intact & easily repaired. Most of the top center was ground away as if worked over with a belt sander. Front sheet metal & radiator were replaced, no damage to the front subframe. I drove the car for several years. Had the young (16) driver been wearing a proper seat belt, he would have probably survived with minor injuries. I believe the hardtop & belt would have saved his life, but not the seat belt alone. This is not to say that a proper roll over bar is not a good thing, only that a hardtop might give some protection in some situations. |
| Jim Stuart |
| Jim... I have never pictured you in a Midget! And for some reason, it still doesn't come clear! :-) rick |
| rick ingram |
| I owned 4 spridgets, 2 Midgets, 2 Sprites, all side curtain cars & I swapped in hotted up 1275 engines to replace 948 & 1098 originals. I was taller & slimmer then. A 1973 was my only transportation for 2 years & 9 snow storms. That is when I bought my first MGBGT. |
| Jim Stuart |
| Rick I will try to make it this time, I still have my airplane tickets to Grand Rapids. I really want to go and meet all of you B hot roders. Yes greg, I meant .095 can you imagine .95 roll bar! and yes same incident. In our organization we have strick rules for the lunch drive around. |
| Bill Guzman |
| Re: Roll bars, It is possible to have a rollbar tall enough to provide sufficient height over the drivers head and still use a soft top. My rollbar is several inches higher than the top of my balding head. For those instances when a top is really needed, I have a soft top with the metal frame removed. The top is fastened at the windshield header, stretched across the rollbar and fastened with the standard retainers around the cockpit. It ain't pretty, but does keep the rain out. I would rather have an ugly looking top than sand the top of my head down in an inverted slide. I am short enough already! I wil have a check in the mail shortly for the track time. I will have a new motor in so will not be backfiring at every shift like last year. |
| Kurt Schley |
| Larry: You might want to check with Kirk Racing (kirkracing.com)in Alabama. I've installed one of their bars(actually purchased from Glenn Towery) that was made wide enough for me to recline my Miata seats almost all the way back. I'm 6' 2" and have found the bar to fit very nicely even with the top up. Although, I have to remove the bar padding on the sides when moving the top up or down. The bar is a fair amount thicker than the previous Moss bar I had. I believe they did the hoop on the rotary Spitfire mentioned previously, as they are using the pic in their ads. |
| Bob Fish |
| re: Rick I will try to make it this time, I still have my airplane tickets to Grand Rapids. I really want to go and meet all of you B hot roders. ********************************** It will be GREAT to have you out! I will have hotel information posted after the first of the year. British V8 2005 is going to be FANTASTIC. Rick "Moe" Ingram |
| rick ingram |
| Hiya Jim- You had a q that i thought I had responded to, but it appears not, specifically plating thickness- I don't recall right now what plating thickness is, but take a look at dsr.racer.net, they have portions of the GCR's in pdf on their site.These would include plating requirements for unibody cars. Kurt- I've seen some that attach to the windshield frame, loop over the rool hoop, and use a bunge to pretension the hood. Lots of ways to skin this cat (sorry, all PETA members), just not many ways to make it pretty and effective. Some people are long legged, short torso, some are long torso, short leg- and won't fit as well as the former. Unfortunately, V8 engine is is still in California- need tostart thinking about a shell..... |
| greg fast |
This thread was discussed between 07/12/2004 and 23/12/2004
MG MGB GT V8 Factory Originals Technical index
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