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MG MGB Technical - A worrying thought...amateur restorers

Guys, am I alone or has anyone else had the following thought... Yes the MGA and MGB are pretty straightforward cars to restore, if your careful and have some degree of mechanical skill. And yes, this site does give a further insite into how to fix things if your not sure. But I wonder how many amateur restorers are out there pulling their MGs apart and then putting them together using no expertise or perhaps incorrect or misunderstood advice? For me its a worry considering some of the rather obvious questions I see here sometimes! Lets face it, if the brakes or steering go on a car the results could be quite frightening if not fatal! Might I suggest we need to be a bit more concious of advice we give to some of the less skilled members on this BBS and suggest they always get a seasoned restorer or mechanic to double check their work before putting the car on the road.
regards
mark
mark


I see no risk in a reasonably competent individual
working on their own car's brakes. I think the
greater risk is poor quality components, especially
master cylinders and wheel cylinders, causing
sudden brake failure.

Someone who works on their own car regularly is more
likely to catch things like corroded brake lines
and leaking wheel cylinders before they cause
problems.

I agree that working on steering can be tricky,
but basic jobs like tie rod-ends can be safely
done by the home mechanic.

I frankly find it scarier to entrust my non-MG
cars to auto dealership mechanics. I have had
my cars returned after servicing with things
like inoperative handbrakes and disconnected
alternator wiring that were truly dangerous.
Ronald

If they're really that incompetent, they'll probably never get it running anyway. Then, sooner or later, their wives are going to insist that they get rid of that old piece of junk taking up space in the garage - and one of us will be able to pick it up at a bargain price :-)
Joe Reed

Mark. I agree with your thought, but am not sure how to implement it. First, how are we to know the competency of any individual we give advise to? In some cases, it is relatively obvious from the particular question being asked. In other cases, it is simply someone who has a good basic mechanical grasp, but has difficulty formulating their question on line. We also run into a problem in that everything we write is archived for future reference. Thus, even if we give advise to someone who seems knowledgable and competent, the information is also available to anyone who reads the thread when current or searches it out in the archives. It would seem that the final decision must rest with the individual who is going to attempt to do the work. Not the most satisfactory of answers, but I am not sure how we can handle the matter in any other way. I have, in the past, recommended professional assistance when it seemed that someone was in over their head. But, as some of the others have pointed out, competent, professional assistance is often very difficult to find. My daughter (younger) recently had a problem with her Miata, a 95. Relatively new car. Dealer assistance still available along with factory trained service technicians. Dealer could not find root cause of the problem. Second mechanic could not find root cause of problem. Over two thousand dollars in mechanic's fees and towing services. Third mechanic, a small, Miata only specialist traced the problem to a bad ground and charged me $88 to diagnose and fix it. Yes, I agree with what you say, but what do you suggest we do about it? Les
Les Bengtson

Mark,

I'm of the opinion that a resonably competent person should be able to attempt almost any job on a simple car (by that I mean anything pre-engine management). However I do worry about working on brakes and steering for the simple reason, if I screw up on the engine, the car doesn't go. If I screw up on the brakes, then the car doesn't stop (which would you prefer!!).

If I need to work on the brakes, then I either do it myself and get my local garage to check my work, or I get them to do the whole job (especially anything involving bleeding the brake fluid). Ok I'm lucky that my local garage (about 1km from my house) is owned by a guy who used to restore classics, and the mechanics are both competent and aren't paid commision for doing uncessary work (cf main-dealer workshops!!).

The real problem is are people aware of their limitations and able to make rational decisions about them? I guess if the answer was "yes", we wouldn't have the "Darwin Awards"

Chris
Chris Byham

I also agree that we need to be careful with our advice. It might be appropriate if the WebMaster was to include a disclaimer of some type on the page to protect posters legally.

Now, in terms of the risk, when was the last time any of us in the states saw an MG in an accident?

In the past 3 years, I only know of 2 and both were caused by the other vehicle running a light, not mechanical failure (one was a T series and resulted in an unfortunate fatality, the other a broken shoulder). I know that when I work on my car, care is taken much greater than that given by a local mechanic... even a local MG restoration mechanic.

I believe the old adage "If you want it done right, do it yourself." applies here.
Bart
BartTS

No one can become experienced without trying something for the first time. The BBS is superb and for the novice like myself I learn far more from it than I could ever contribute to it. But the advice on this BBS is still only advice. It could be wrong, or applied incorrectly. It is down to the individual carrying out the work to assess the suitability of the advice and make their own decisions about what to do. And foremost in their thoughts should be safety. This applies to simple tasks as much as the more complex stuff (jacking up the car for instance). Recognising potentially dangerous situations is the key and then acting appropriately - and I have seen a number threads where such warnings are given. I understand the concerns but I wouldn't want the BBS to become the preserve of "experts". Half the enjoyment of owning these cars is working on them and learning!

FWIW, for us novices, I would like to add a few general comments to help work go smoothly:

1. For any job, take as much time, if not more, during the dismantling/removal process, noting how things fit together, how they relate to each other, free movement between parts etc. Because you are sure to come to reassemble/fit the parts and then forget what is was like before hand.
2. Study the diagrams in the manuals before you start and then check on your car for non-standrad parts etc and make sure you understand how the thing WORKS.
3. Make sure you have all necessary bits (washers, gaskets etc). Can help save a lot of time.
4. Scour the archives for info and plan the job as much as possible - save you a lot of time/expense in the end ( I learn't this from a recent slave cylinder rebuild)
5. If you are not sure be preared to admit defeat and get it done professionally - always know your limitations.

Richard
Richard

Judging from the scary things I see on customer's cars I'd worry a _lot_ more about the rest of the cars on the road as the average MG owner at least _tries_ to do a comprehensive repair job unlike the bodged up crap I share the L.A. freeways with .

Why not just enjoy your MG and worry about the A - bomb instead ? .

-Nate
NSH

I would put my comments this way. If I were looking to buy a car from someone who did their own work, I would want to try it out and also ask some questions as what they may have done and how they did it. Sometimes a look around a guy's shop is as instructive as any info they might give you.

I don't think we can trust anyone's say so, regardless of their professional or non-professional status, to be the final arbiter of the quality of work done. The proof is in the eating when making pudding, and the proof of what you are getting in any restoration is what YOU find out from your own preparation and experience of what you see before you. In short, doing your own inspection, and then being satisfied with what you have found.

As I have often said before on this BBS, one thing I value more than most in the performance of workmanship is consistency. And to determine consistency means one must take a look at a broader view than just how a given item or system is handled. I agree that things like braking and steering are certainly critical. But what my experience has taught me is that as people will do in little things, they will also do with bigger ones.

What do I mean? Pretty bluntly, that small details will often be done half-assed and that the indicators of shortcuts and half measures will likely be evident elsewhere. If I see these things crop up in a car, especially frequently, it tends to make the whole car just a bit suspect in my mind. And if I am told that someone did all of this work himself, well, then, justified or not, I at least, tend to question the work ethic involved and what definition this individual gives to the terms "restoration", quality, performance, and cost vs. final product.

Perhaps that makes me too judgemental? May be. However, I do like to know that the person describing a supposed restoration to me shares at least a mostly similar definition of that concept and process. I have seen one helluva lot of loosely so-called "restorations", the limits of which were about $1000 and a brother-in-law's free paint job. And I have also seen some cars that were "mostly" restored all over, but somehow, the process seemed to have fallen short in each case along the way to the full measure of that concept.

Perhaps the best that anyone can do for themselves is to learn what constitutes good work vs. shoddy. That takes exposure, and that takes a willingness to learn. In a world of instant gratifications, that is sometimes a tough notion to accept, and perhaps why we are often easily willing to place our faith in what we are told about things, when our own informed judgement (or that gained from a fellow observer who has those insights) might have steered us away from the disparities revealed.
Bob Muenchausen

I believe this is an exercise in futility. I admit that when I started with my MG I was a mechanical zero. I questioned anything I went to do and often had someone check behind me when I was done. I am now more equipped both with knowledge and skill to attempt most any repair that comes up. Still, any repair that is a safety issue I take to a professional if I have any doubt or question about doing it right. There are however those personality types that will dive into a project without question, skill, knowledge, tools, etc.and bodge together anything to make it work, either permanently, temporarily, or halfassed. Short of having some kind of on-line assessment of mechanical skills we have no way to judge the level of anyone's mechanical ability. I know of some professional mechanics who's skills (or motivations) are highly questionable. Those who are intent on fixing something will try it, with or without the advise of this board. There is nothing we can do about it. I believe this BBS is accessed by those who are concerned about "doing it right", otherwise they wouldnt be asking in the first place. After all, most ofthe people here are working on THEIR cars and will be the first to experience anything right or wrong with what they've done. You have to give credit for common sense to most people until they've SHOWN they dont have any.
william fox

>You have to give credit for common sense to most people until they've SHOWN they dont have any.

I must be rather uncharitable, I usually judge people the other way around. I've seen some cars in rather frightening condition driven to club events.

In some cases, those same owners pick up skills and knowledge over the years, and if they stick with it, the car ends up looking better and better as the years go by. Some of these owners fix their own cars, some others simply find good resources by belonging to the club. The owners that don't care end up leaving the club and selling the car. Sometimes I think the difference between a fool and a wise person is persistence and a willingness to learn.
Mark B.

Guys, my comment was just that, a comment but perhaps it was also my way of reminding some of the "old hands" here that we need to be wary of how/who takes our advice. I don't think we need to go over the top with disclaimers, just think of what someone less knowledgable might think as we type. We are all in this for the fun, learning experience and escape (from the wife and kids???) As for spelling, my best mechanic who can strip an engine blindfolded (well maybe!) has only a primary school education, but is a genius when it comes to mechanics. I have now had 27 years of restoring 3 MGAs and 3 MGBs for full strip downs to as new. Looking back at my work as a young 16 year old with my first MGA on a high school budget I shudder to think of some of the shortcuts I believed would be OK. Nowdays I check and then double check, as I'm sure most of us do. Your comment is accepted and considered reasonable, as I hope you will mine,
Safety Fast
mark
mark

Mark-
I agree with you on the point of those of us who are giving advice being careful. All too often I see evidence of experienced people forgeting just how ignorant a beginner mechanic can be and giving advice that is lacking in essential detail. Even worse, I've seen incompetent advice, such as telling someone that they can get oil pressure by just firing up the engine without priming the oil pump first. Fortunately the appearance of such bad advice is usually quickly followed by the correct advice. Having one's own work checked by a professional can be a good idea, but there are few shops in our country that are competent to do this on a car as rare as an MGB. By and large, a novice MGB owner is better off using this BBS and its archives than he would be if he ignored it.
Steve S.

As one admitted novice, let me throw this in..I'd be lost and listening to my wife say, "I told you so" if not for this forum. I also own other cars. My Toyota went in for a brake check and came out worse after they replaced the rotors and pads (or said they did). I could have done the job but left it to a "professional". I won't begin to tell you about the disasters with Ford and Chevy dealer mechanics.
I think the advise here is mostly given with sincere best interests. I could take my B to a local who doesn't know what a B is, or I could tackle the job without this forum. I prefer to ask and consider input based on experiences.
I would guess most novices are looking for support before tackling the job and any input on what to expect as well as any hints specific to their question.
I've been coming here awhile and have asked some simple questions as well as complex. Don't give up on us dumb novices. We don't want to become apprentices, we just want to enjoy our cars.
kids1

Boy, when did we all get so frightened and concerned about DIY abilities? I remember back in my high school and college days, my friends and I working on our cars. We made some horrendous mistakes, but never got hurt from any of them. Usually it was the car that suffered, engines blowing up, that sort of thing. But we got better, and so did our cars.

I believe there are two main groups of car owners, those who are afraid or unwilling to tackle repairs themselves, and those who say "Yeah, I can do that", and learn how to do it. Most of the folks who are willing to try DIY work will put a modicum of effort into researching the dos and don'ts of the task prior to starting it. My feeling is that someone who takes the trouble to ask a question on this BBS and/or researches the archives is already predisposed to "doing it right". But there are always exceptions to the rule.

My only concern is that in our increasingly litigious society, some numb-nuts will crack up his car. As he or she lays dying on the roadway, they will croak out the statement that "So-and-so told me how to fix the brakes on the MG BBS". Some shyster ambulance chaser lawyer will pick up on that and try to milk poor so-and-so for all he is worth!

So do we all put some sort of disclaimer statement at the bottom of our postings? Who knows? If you read the fine print at the bottom of this page, the MG Car Enthusiasts' Club do not assume responsibility for what is posted here. Does that mean that any responsibility for error falls back on the poster's shoulders? Twenty or thirty years ago, I would have laughed off that view as ridiculous. Now the d**m lawyers have changed the rules!

Cheers,
Paul Kile
Paul Kile

Good points, all. I would rather do a job myself, and know it has been done well, than take it to some glossy outfit that employs poorly trained kids who wouldn't know a torque wrench if it bit them. Obviously, in the wonderful world of classic cars, there are many specialists who provide a top notch service. But in my experience of main line new car franchises, the workshop quality is appalling with problems undiagnosed and routine service items not done.

I had the great benefit of learning my car knowledge from my late Dad, and he got me out of trouble more than once in my early days of car maintenance. But where do we stand legally with the advice we all give here? Is it a similar position to that of magazines that offer practical articles on car repair? I can't believe the editor is liable for some twit making a mess of a job. What if our advice, given in good faith, is wrong? There must be some lawyers out there who could tell us where we stand.
Mike
Mike Howlett

I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV, but it is my understanding that, in order to successfully sue someone over advice, the plaintiff would need to show that he relied on that advice completely and that such reliance was reasonable.

A good defense lawyer could argue that such reliance was not reasonably prudent, given that we don't really know each other on this BBS (for the most part, we are just words on a screen to each other), nor are we putting ourselves forth as professionals.

As for getting a professional mechanic to check your work, its a nice idea, but since he *is* a professional, he *could* be held legally liable for damage caused due to work that he "approved". For that reason, not to mention that mechanics make their money by doing the work, I would expect most shops to resist offering such advice. Unless they did a complete tear down and rebuild of the brakes, for example, it would be difficult to tell if the owner really did an adequate job. You might as well pay him to do the work in the first place.

It is, however, a sobering thought that a bunch of car enthusiasts like us are even considering such CYA measures. We're all just here to have fun with our toy cars, after all. Nonetheless, Mark's point is not completely far-fetched. In the US, at least, anyone can sue anyone else for anything. Even if such a lawsuit were unsuccessful, defending myself against one could bankrupt me, for one. More ridiculous lawsuits than he suggests have succeeded in the past.
Paul Noble

I'm in my 3rd year of law school now, but haven't researched this issue. Right now my time is taken up by doing some work for people with bigger problems like housing discrimination and going to prison. Oh, and there's that bar exam thing I should be getting ready for. My first thought is, would a reasonable person rely on information from some bunch of guys, many of whom don't post their real names or e-mail addresses, not to mention actual addresses, the vast majority of whom are not even close to MG auto repair professionals, who have obviously not SEEN the car in question, I could go on. Then there's the matter of people making judgments and giving advice based on a person's descriptions who doesn't know exactly what to do, or possibly being totally clueless. Imagining this making it as far as trial, which is highly unlikely, the defense could very likely have the case won by the time s/he sits down from their open. By the way, I think a case could be made that such a suit is frivolous. If so, you can recover your legal fees for defending such a suit in many places.
Of couse, none of you knows that I really am who I say, or if I really am in law school:) And if I am, I'm of course not a lawyer yet! so many caveats!
Wade Keene

Wade, How does Good Samaritan play into all of this? I heard years ago that if you are helping somebody with their permission that you are not liable for damages IE: A motorist is on the side of the road with a flat tire in the rain and you try to change it and forget to block the wheels and dump the wheel less corner of the car on the ground. Your intent was to help so you are not liable. At least that is what I was told.
?
.

Don' worry...be happy!
jamaica mon

Mark B.: You illustrated my point. You found people who demostrated they had little if any common sense.
william fox

I think that "Good Samaritan" laws do not completely absolve the one offering help of any liability. If your actions are reasonable and the damage could not reasonably be forseen or prevented, then you may be safe. If you simply forgot to block the wheels or set the e-brake, but had the tools and/or equipment to do so, you might still be in trouble.

As I understand it, the good samaritan laws were passed in response to a few horror stories, in which someone helped an injured person at a car accident, only to be sued later, after the person died, because the helper was the last one to touch the victim. The legal problem was that, since the victim was still alive, it wasn't the accident that killed him/her; it was the poor medical care given by the passerby. The laws were an attempt to protect a person who makes a good-faith, reasonable effort to help. But it doesn't protect you from claims of negligence.
Paul Noble

A little off the thread title, but recently, my V8 Ford Explorer started running real rough. Thinking that I didn't have the necessary skills or equipment to even think about fixing it, I took it to my trusty Ford dealership for repair; a big, reputable dealership. Big mistake! The $450 bill included fuel system total flush and clean, replace spark plugs and 1 spark plug wire?, clean injectors, etc...

When I picked it up, I asked the guy, 'who replaces only one spark plug wire?' Well, he says, 'If we replaced them all, it would have cost a lot more'.

Later, at home, I look under the hood, and only 1 spark plug has been replaced, along with 1 nice shiny odd colored wire. Looking more closely, it's obvious that no wrench has touched any other part of the vehicle, anywhere; just the 1 plug and wire. So I call about the fact that only 1 plug was changed, and the invoice says plugs, plural. I'm told that's a typo, and sure enough, they only charged me for 1; $8.00.

Lesson here? Next time, I'll at least check for spark to all plugs, like I surely would have in by-gone days, before the modern complexities. Well, at least I have a very clean fuel system now! Yea...right!

Thanks to all who share their knowledge and experiences here; I, for one, promise never to sue anyone here for the results of what they share, and you can quote my words here, if necessary, in future litigation.

Regards to all,

Steve
Steve

Wow!! this thread has gone way beyond my original intentions, which was just a timely reminder that all are not as knowledgable as some! I never implied or meant to imply some would consider law suits or whatever. Yes, sometimes my spelling is a bit off so I'll take that flack, but ultimately all I wanted to do was put the consideration into the minds of those giving advice. I suppose I am lucky in that my local MG dealer (whom I have bought all my parts from for the last 20 years) will look over anything I'm not sure on or show me the "pro's" way. As for the idea of clubs having a 'coming out inspection day' that is one idea i think we should all think about suggesting to our respective clubs. I know I will. Anyway thanks for the comments guys, I read them all and appreciate the time you all gave to making them...maybe my little comment at the start has sowed the seed in some of your minds,
safety fast
mark mathiesen
markmathiesen@hotmail.com
mark mathiesen

i am an attorney in a city near nashville tennessee. In order for a plaintiff to suceed there would be a number of issues in a case such as is being discussed. One of the first problems would be if the plaintiffs state court could exercise jursdiction over the out of state defendant. The ambulance chasing lawyers are interested in turning over a case quickly and usually do not want to get involved in questionable cases which involve protracted litigation.
rick baranyi

Hi Rick,
Nice to hear from an attorney on this since the 'L' word has been raised. Your comment makes me think about a case I just helped settle. It was a suit brought under the Fair Housing Act in Federal Court and the judge was hostile to it from the beginning. Not due to the merits of the claim or the defense; it just seemed that he didn't want such a suit (and housing discrimination is constitutional!) in his courtroom. Based on that experience, if an MG advice case had to go federal, it wouldn't go far.
Wade Keene

From a Triumph Spitfire website hosting tips on maintenance/rebuilds/restorations -

"The authors of these tips as well as the webmaster for this site assume no responsibility for personal
injury or property damage resulting from application of any of these tips. Know your limitations and
proceed at your own risk".

Seems like an appropriate disclaimer
Richard Atkinson

I think we all know the results of novice repair work. We have all bought second hand cars and had to unravel bizarre and frightening bits of the Dread Previous Owners work. If you got your B when you were 16 and then were insane enough to hang on to it until you were 32, you got to unravel your own bizarre and frightening work. My car still has oddities attached to it that I don't understand. Why do the front knock-off hubs use different thread patterns? (one course, one fine) when did the four syncho get in there and why? and why is the wiring all baked and messed up? why does it still work? Apparently, I am by far the best mechanic to have touched this car. And that's truly frightening.
Chris Birdwell

Chris you just wrote about me! I got my car when I was 17 and I still own it now at 34 (yep, I'm crazy). When I restored it a couple of years ago, I found all kinds of stuff that I had done in college just to get the car to work until I could afford to fix it right.

I guess that was a while.

Oh well. It's all nice and new now!

Robert
Robert Rushing

Weren't we all amateurs at one time? (Actually, I still consider myself quite below adequate status) Didn't we all begin by checking our own oil one day?

But you guys are right about the disclaimer. The one above sounds quite right and maybe should be placed somewhere prominently in these web pages. Hate to say it, but some smart aleck may one day want to take it personally to a response one of us may give. Heck, I knew of people that made their living out of looking for people or companies to sue. Is it truley the American way?
Luis

to all,This makes for very interestering reading,I thought that this was to be an imformative club membership to help pass on peoples VAST knowledge.Everyone has to start some place.The people like Les,Paul,Mark,Steve etc. had to start someplace,they just didnt wake up an MG expert,they had to reley on someone else knowledge,as do we so called NOVICE people,and if everyone is going to freak out then maybe we shouldnt give any advice,why do we have a bbs club then.We all have a common GOAL,and that my FRIENDS is to RESTORE and PERSERVE the GREAT cars' that WE LOVE.thank you everyone who is there with THEIR ADVICE and KNOWLEDGE.....I apperatite it.rich
rich osterhout

Hi Mark

I know what you are saying... It's got nothing to do with the legal side of things etc..

I am 37 with a little (I'm not being modest) mechanical experience, but would still rather pay a couple of dollars for a 'pro' to have a look at my MGB when I hear 'the dreaded clunk' or something similar get worse!

Cheers
Mark
Mark (another one!)

Hi Everyone,

i agree with Rich, we all have to start somewhere. I think the majority of people using this board take a lot of time to not only do the job properly, but also to research how it should be done, including any advice on safety.

I can remember when i first got my MG, i got a trolley jack & some axle stands & then relised i had no idea how to go about jacking & supporting the car. The BBS achive had loads of help on this simple but potentially dangerous task. Since that i've done laods on my car, brakes, engine rebuild, etc. all of which i would never have attempted without the BBS & it's archive.

Cheers

Scott
Scott Ralph

Rich-
You're right. Everybody has to start somewhere. It's "True Confessions" time:

There was a time many, many years ago when gas stations would sell bulk engine oil out of a 55 gallon drum. To save money, my father purchased his motor oil that way. He would store it in one-gallon jugs. One day when I was about 14 years old he told me that the engine in his 62 Chevy Bel Aire was low on oil. I went out, opened the hood, and removed the oil cap from the rocker arm cover. I then proceeded to pour oil from one of the jugs into this apeture. Being the careful type, I kept looking down into it to see if it was full yet. Having poured four jugs of oil into the engine I sensed that something was amiss, gave up, replaced the cap, and went inside to talk to my Father. I told him that I'd put oil in the engine but wasn't sure if I'd put enough in. He asked me if I'd checked the dipstick to make sure that it was "at the right level". I asked him what a dipstick was. He then went outside with me and showed me where the dipstick was and how to use it to check the level of the oil. Upon reading the level on the stick, he realized his mistake in presuming that I knew all of the details involved in doing the job right.

Like I said, we've all got to start somewhere, and this little piece of personal history explains why I've taught all of my sons how to work on their own cars. It might even explain why I so like to give advice on this BBS. Sigmund Freud would have a ball with me.
Steve S.

If you look at the two websites I have for Alternator conversions, I too have a disclaimer at those sites, since the possibility for grevious error is somewhat greater when messing with the electrical charging system than, say, with heater valves. ;-)

I try to encourage all users of those sites to read, plan, and learn ahead about what to do before they attempt the work. To think about whether they are comfortable in their own knowledge to do it. And, from the emails I have received, apparently many folks have done just that and been successful.

However, I cannot be assured that everyone attempting one of those conversions will take the time to do those things, and a good friend told me I ought to protect myself from those who do not see their errors as being of their own doing. If anything, I am simply an amatuer purveyor of information, and I always welcome correction from those who know better but are not themselves interested in developing sites for such purposes.

Here is the text of his disclaimer, for anyone who might have need of it or the one offered by Richard Atkinson.

"Legal Notice: The author of this site makes no representations or warranties about the information provided through this web site, including any hypertext links or any other items used either directly or indirectly from the web site and reserves the right to make changes and corrections at any time, without notice. The author accepts no liability for any inaccuracies or omissions in this web site and any decisions based on information contained in this website are the sole responsibility of the visitor. The author accepts no liability for any direct, special, indirect, or consequential damages or injuries or any other damages or injuries of whatsoever kind resulting from whatever cause through the use of any information obtained either directly or indirectly from this web site."
Bob Muenchausen

Pretty funny story, Steve. Reminds me of when I was very young (5, I think) and me and my 2 brothers did my dad a big favor by repainting his 56 chevy Bel Air for him. We found a few cans of black spray paint in the garage. I thought we did a pretty good job at the time, but my dad didn't appreciate it as much as we expected.

I guess the point that is coming across again and again, and I was trying to make is that we all start off ignorant. One consequence of that ignorance is that you aren't even aware of how ignorant you are when you start out. But if you stick with it, and your head isn't too hard, you learn. The trick is, hopefully you learn before you make a serious safety-related mistake.

I know of at least one accident involving an MG midget where the condition of the car probably contributed to the accident, and the driver ended up paralyzed. The driver lost control of her car after hitting a bump and overcorrecting, and ended up spinning into oncoming traffic and being hit head-on. If her suspension had been in better shape, perhaps she could have corrected. Perhaps not. So poor maintenance can have very serious consequences.

Obviously, my skills aren't to the level of a pro that spends 8 hrs a day working on cars, but on the other hand, that pro doesn't know my car as well as I do.

I try to strike a balance, but even on the jobs I farm out, I try to learn as much as I can from the pros. I sent out the body tub woodwork on my MG TF, because I didn't think I could as good of a job as the pro I hired. But he is keeping me informed, and I can drop in anytime to his shop and look at my project, and he's happy to answer questions.
Mark B.

A couple of years back my BGT needed a service, just the usual basic oil, plugs, coolant etc, due to work commitments I decided to ask a local "big name" service centre to take the job on. Before I did this I asked whether the mechanics had any experience with B's, and was told Yes and a couple of them owned them previously, so I felt quite happy to leave the car with them. However, on getting the car back there were several things obviously not done properly, from the dizzy cap not put on properly to there being little / no water in the cooling system. Now, I'm not particularly mechanically minded but there are a few basics that I know and if a well known service centre in the UK can't even change the coolant I would rather now do the work myself and get someone to check it. This builds confidence, and as time has gone on I feel more and more able to work on the car, checking and having my work checked as I go on. My basic motto has been; research & if in doubt ask... and ask again...
James Elson

Mark,
I've heard it explained this way. (sorry, I can't claim credit for this) We all start out with a full bag of luck and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience before we run out of luck!
I also think we are not all given the same size bags.
BTW, do you know that 75% of the entire world population of lawyers resides in the USA? What does that tell you about our society? Does anyone know what percentage of the worlds population lives in the US? I know there are 275 million Americans.
Regards,
Gary
Gary Wiggins

Ahh Gary, if there are 275 Americans, then without asking how many non-Americans are living in America, we may never know what percentage of the worlds population lives in the US? We would also have to know how many of the 275 "Americans" are living in America vs. anywhere else.
kids1

kid,
And your point is exactly what?
I would like to know how many human beings exist in the world. Then I can surmise what percent of the worlds population is represented by 275 million. Jeez, don't they teach you kids anything at school?
Gary
Gary Wiggins

Gary, my point is (off topic as it is) that many Americans live out of the US and many non-Americans live in the US.
I am not a kid, at 40 yrs old. I have 3 kids and they are #1 to me. If you would like to continue this, lets take it to email. I am not looking for conflict, only made a point of clarity. No offense intended. Happy motoring.
kids1

kid,Gary,what exactly did this have to do with people working/restoring their own cars',and being competent or not in doing so?
rich osterhout

Yeah, you two, take it outside ;-)

But the answer to the previous question is that approximately 4.6% of the globe's population are US citizens. Maybe with all the aliens, we could say that about 5% of the world's population lives in the US. So, if 75% of all the lawyers in the world are in the U.S, that would mean that for every lawyer in the outside world there is about 15 lawyers in the US.

But I guess you all got that one figured already.


Kari

Back on Topic:
Experience is something you get right after you needed it.
Chris Birdwell

Hasn't anyone ever taken a Latin class? Remember amo, amas, amat...the verb "to love". What is a amateur but someone who pursues an activity they love doing? In this light we are all amateurs in the car hobby. This includes driving, repairing, restoring...we love to do this. (And if it's not obvious, the professionals who participate in this forum also love what they are doing; they are just lucky enough to get paid for doing what they love.) I,for one, do not worry about the dangers of less than perfect home mechanics and amateur restorers working on these cars. Most accidents are due to poor driving; or haven't you noticed the quality? of today's licensed drivers? I think more damage is done to our cars by neglect and consignment to junk than by anything else. Let's encourage those who are new to the car hobby. Their addition to the field helps all of us, for it creates the demand for replacement parts which we need more by each passing year. Cheers to everyone who works on their own car!! Many thanks to all who post freely their accomplishments and failures on this site!! We are all benefactors of the AMATEUR RESTORER!!
Thomas Lennon

Thomas,I couldn't have said it any better myself!Its great encouragment to know people like you exist in this car CLUB...... Rich O
rich osterhout

This thread was discussed between 08/04/2002 and 18/04/2002

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