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MG MGB Technical - model year

MY mgb roadster is titled as a 1964. The car number on the body reads
GHN3L 16869. Is the car really a 1963? Thanks, Dave
David Dakken

David,

I have the same problem with my car, a '67 by papers, but really a '66 by numbers. I guess the mystery is explained by the fact that cars where build, then shipped and sold sometimes up to a year later (especially when coming to the US). They were often only registered when sold by the dealership and not when received. Hence the slight discrepancy... I think it adds to the charm of the cars story, don't you?
corneliu

The model year actually started with the 1969 year - built from October 1968. All model years thereafter started in the October of the previous year.

Your car was built in July 1963 - before model years were even thought of!!
Chris Betson

David-
After consulting Clausager's "Original MGB", I can confirm that Chris is correct. Your car was produced in July of 1963 and back then there was no such a thing as a "model year" for MGs.
Steve S.

From others postings it seems that US authorities can specify the 'year' as the year of registration and not the year of manufacture, even taking into account the displacement between the two when 'model year' came into being. I suspect the 'model year' system came into effect in Nov/Dec 67 for the 68 model year as that was the first time a whole raft of changes was introduced, even though Clausager doesn't use the term until a year later.
Paul Hunt

Model years are pretty much an American invention, done to spark interest in each new year's production. Europeans largely made changes "on the fly", and not batching them the way we have done. (The exception being, of course, when a whole new car like the MGA or B was introduced.) As a consequence, our licensing paperwork commonly listed "model year", and it was largely filled in by the dealer with the year of registration for imported cars.

That is, until safety and emissions laws and regulations began and they were tied to model years, in which case, it got to be very important what equipment was installed when. This was especially interesting for an importer, as they had to factor in transoceanic shipping. Domestic "model years" typically run form October 1 - Spetember 30, and any new production turning up on the lots are the new model year's cars. With a pipeline extendng thousands of miles, some new model year's cars did not arrive until January or so for MG and other overseas manufacturers.

Weren't the "1974 1/2's" built just for a couple of months right at the end of 1974 (including December)? MG may have had difficulty in certifying the catalyst for 1975. My 1973 model year GT, for example, was built in November of 1972, which would have been more typical.
John Z

I've seen "81" and even "82" MGBs. They sat a long time, I guess.
Baxter

Paul Hunt,

Yes, it was possible in the past for the seller to assign a model year to a vehicle. I don't think that this is possible any more. First of all, all emissions and safety regulations are based on date of manufacture, so you can say that the Ford I might be about to buy is a 1929 model year; it still must meet 2002 regulations.

Secondly, since 1980, all vehicles sold in the US must have a standard VIN number, which includes a manufacturer-assigned model year indicator. So if the dealer says its a 2003, but the VIN says its a 2002, he could probably be sued for fraud.
Paul Noble

'74 1/2' models were made from September into December, then the 1975 models began. Can't imagine why it was named thus, since September was typically the time when the next years model started to be made anyway and the changes for the 1975 model year were very minor and for North America only.

The VIN plates used on MGBs in 1980 till the end of production did not contain the year, but the additional plate for NA on the drivers B-post from Sep 69 did state the month and year. There have been a number of cases quoted here where the date on this plate has not tied up with the chassis number, being significantly later. Opinion was that it was the US authorities that had caused this to happen.
Paul Hunt

Model year was a problem on many imports sold during the 60's. Many dealers would change it to whatever year they sold the car, sometimes two or three years after build date. My brother bought a Morris Minor that was sold as a three year newer car than if actually was. I bought a new Volvo 122 in Alaska in 1965, all paper work showed it to be a 66. However when I paid the car off around 18 months later and received the title it was 65. The dealer went out of business a few months after I bought the car so I couldn't go back to them to complain. FWIW, Clifton
Clifton Gordon

74 1/2 B's happened because US Dept of Transportattion (DOT) regulations took effect Sept.1 (safety regs-hence rubber bumpers) but the EPA anti-pollution regs took effect Jan 1 1975. That's why the 74 1/2 is the only rubber bumper that still had dual SU's. They went to single Zenith in Jan. and became 1975 models.
Terry

My son's midget has the recessed grille and split bumper like a 70, the date stamped on the door plate is Sept or Oct of 69, and it's titled as a 69. But we order 70 parts.
My MGB says Sept of 73 on the door plate, has chrome bumpers, no overriders, dual HIF carbs, but is titled as a 74.
Typical MG's--whatever happened to be in the parts bin at the time...
I agree with Terry, that when the emissions laws got tough, the model and year had to be definite. In 72 I worked at a gas station selling gas/petrol for $.32 cents a gallon. By 1974 it was about $1.50 per gallon. That was the defining moment of automotive history.
Ken T
Ken Thompson

Ken - your title would be in error on the Midget, as a car built in the UK in late '69 (particularly with all those 1970 markers) would not be sold here until quite late in '1969 at the earliest and most assuredly during the 1970 "model year". I suspect the dealer made a mistake on the original paperwork.

Your 1974 model year B is correctly identified. There are a handful of 1974 things which differentiate it from the 1973. One thing that springs immediately to mind is that your ignition switch is probably the kind with the "block" connector fitting, and not individual pin connectors, like mine. And unlike mine, you can actually buy a replacement part! While the 1974 chrome / non-overrider bumper car is NEARLY indistinguishable from a 1973, there were some updates.

You're right in that there was a lot of "let's use what's available" in the factory, particularly earlier. Ask anyone who's tried to figure out how many MGA "Deluxes" (MGA's with Twin Cam parts, but without the Twin Cam engine) there are! But certainly by the early 70's the model year disciple, required by regulation, had taken hold. It just looks like someone selling a Midget in late 1969/early 1970 just hadn't gotten the word yet!
John Z

Paul H. I love you dearly and respect you even more than I love you. This is based on the many years you have helped me personally and all of us as a group. You are one of the finest people I "know". However, "changes for the 75 model year were very minor and for North America only". The 75 model year, here in North America (the Canadians seem to have gotten stuck with what the US goverment decreed) was a landmark year. This was the year that "unleaded" gasoline was required. First reason was the automakers here went to the cat as an emissions solution and the cat does not tolerate leaded gasoline. Second reason is that leaded gasoline deposited small amounts of lead in the atmosphere. This, it was deemed, was the cause of "lead poisoning" amoung children. (This also caused some of the best paints and primers to be removed from the market.) So, the "anti-lead" campaign was in full swing and all future cars were to run on "unleaded gasoline". Was this impact significant?

In 1975, there were 13,467 model cars produced (Clausager, page 125). Of these, 11,992 were "LHD North America" models. Not only was the cat introduced, but the dreaded Z-S carb and single piece intake/exhaust manifold. The fuel tank filler had an adapter fitted which only allowed the smaller "unleaded" filler nozzle to be admitted. The body, next to the filler, had "Unleaded Fuel Only" on a sticker and the fuel gauge had a similar notation. The cylinder heads were "induction hardened" in the valve seat area to make up for the loss of the cushioning affect of the lead residue. All in all, 1975 was one of the more significant years in auto production, including the MGs. Les
Les Bengtson

Les - whilst any particular change may have been environmentally very significant I was going merely by the amount of changes on the car, which take up little more than half a column inch of space, as to the near six column inches of the 74 1/2 'model year'.
Paul Hunt

Les, Terry, John Z--you've all hit the nail on the head. Before about 72 or 73 people weren't much concerned with emissions or model year. But the oil embargo and long gas lines in 73 really drove home the point. I remember guys trying to sell their guzzler Cadillacs and driving Toyotas. My uncle actually gave up his 283 Chevy for a 4-cyl Ford with a manual transmission! And BL took about 2 years to catch up, producing an MGB that had the safety bumpers, emissions controls, cat converter, etc. The american manufacturers continued messing with vacuum devices for 5 to 10 years, then went to electronic controls in the middle 80s, which made a vast improvement in engines! too bad the MGB wasn't here to be a part of that :o(

Ken T
Ken Thompson

Actually I'm wrong on one point: my 70 MGB had a smog pump with the air rail injectors and evaporative cannister. I remember how that smog pump would cause the pressure to build up and cause a blast out the tailpipe as loud as a shotgun when shifting from 2nd to 3rd. They obviously did start emissions controls earlier than the regulations brought about by the oil embargo.
Ken T
Ken Thompson

Ken. Emissions started, technically, with the 67 model year and in 68 the air pump was added. Emissions requirements kept becoming more stringent and the equipment piled on. The charcoal canister was required when the sealed gas tank was required. The tank, instead of venting through the cap, was vented through a complex linkage leading to the charcoal cansiter to keep fumes our of the atmosphere. For US cars, 73 and 74 were the worst years. With the introduction of the 75 model year, all US cars had cats and required the use of unleaded fuel to prevent the cat from burning out or failing. This was a good thing for the oil companies as, by mandating the use of unleaded fuel, they could charge somewhat more for it and people would have to pay their price. Supposedly, leaded fuel is more expensive to make, but it always sold for less than the unleaded. Removing lead is "for the sake of the children" as are most imposed solutions. Unfortunately, most of the children who suffered from lead poisoning got it from eating flaking paint off walls. This is why paints were also made "lead free" including those for purly industrial applications. They held up much better than the paints which replaced them. Les
Les Bengtson

I GUESS THE WHOLE TRUTH AND NOTHING --------ETC. COMES WITH A "BRITISH MOTOR INDUSTRY HERITAGE TRUST TRACE CERTIFICATE" USUALLY THE THREE OR FOUR DAYS OF THE PARTICULAR MONTH OF THAT YEAR ZONES YOU RIGHT INTO WHEN YOUR CAR WAS BUILT. WHEN THE CAR WAS REGISTERED IS ALSO RECORDED FOR UK CARS - STATE SIDE IS ANOTHER THING. REGARDS BRIAN
BRIAN POLLARD

"And BL took about 2 years to catch up"

No catch-up, they only did it when they had to. They wouldn't have been allowed to sell the cars if they hadn't complied with current legislation at any time. In the case of the complex sequential seat-belt system they were ahead of US manufacturers, who eventually convinced the government not to implement the legislation, or at least rescind it.
Paul Hunt

Actually, in some areas BL was ahead of the requirements. As I remember it, they needed five mile per hour bumpers (bumpers which were not damaged with a five mph impact, not was the frame or body to be damaged) for the 75 model year. This was from the insurance lobby and the standard was to be raised to 10 or 15 mph within a few years. The MG was designed to meet the proposed, future standard rather than the interium standard. Brian Moylan, who worked in the testing lab at Abingdon, has noted that MG was able to meet all of the current and proposed air pollution and safety legislation at the time the B was removed from production. Moylan's book, "The Story Behind the Octagon", if you can find a copy, it was privately published, is worth having. Not the "polished" history that someone like David Knowles or Wilson McComb have done, but, rather, a well written book that concentrates on the people working there and tells the MG story through them. A working man's view. To me, this makes it especially valuable. Les
Les Bengtson

Actually, Les, it is my understanding that the situation regarding the bumpers was just the reverse; the legislation, as originally proposed, required 10 mph collision surviveability, but the speed was dropped to 5 mph before the law was implemented. I could be wrong; I certainly have been before.

I have also heard the the insurance industry shot themselves (and us) in the foot. While the bumpers did/do reduce damage claims from low-speed accidents, the increased cost of repairing them when they *are* damaged, more than offsets the savings. IOW, they caused a net *increase* in insurance claims.

Also, I suspect that, when the rubber bumpers on MGB's or any other car of the period were scuffed in a parking lot encounter, that owners still filed a claim to have the scuff repaired. I had a similar scuff on my wife's 1997 Cavalier and the auto shop estimated over $600; you can't patch the bumper cover, it must be replaced.
Paul Noble

To go further away from the original thread -

The insurance question has a couple of aspects - and they didn't really shoot themselves in the foot.

The bumper standards adressed two things for insurance companies - first off they avoided a number of "nuisance claims", as ANY bump caused damage to the car. The change reduced the amount of paperwork - "ordering cost" in accounting speak - saving them some money.

The fact that the new-fangled bumper systems cost a lot to replace, though, isn't a problem for insurance companies, assuming their actuaries are up to snuff. Insuance companies are like traveller's check companies, they know they will pay out eventually, they make their money on the "float" between collecting their fees from us and paying out for claims. So having more expensive equipment only means that they collect a little more from us against the day it'll be replaced, and they make more on their investments until we have the accident which requires the bumper system's replacement.

So - the bumper reg's helped the insurance companies in two ways. Less cost due to reduced paperwork, and more money made on the float.
John Z

Actually, Les, not to be argumentative, not all US cars had catalytic converters and the unleaded fuel filler. Seemingly, the California '75s did. My wife's Roadster, GHN5UF381477G, must have been a "49-state version" and (does not) did not have a catalytic converter and the required unleaded fuel filler neck (seems to be the one for the early '70s models). Although it did have the Zenith-Stromberg single carb.

If I didn't have one, I'd probably never have known this.

California was always "ahead" of the rest of the country regarding emissions equipment. I recall my neighbor coming back from California with a (used) '65 Mustang 289 that had an air pump and limiters on the carb idle mixture adjusters.

Wayne
Wayne Pearson

The remainder of the USA got the cat and unleaded filler in 76 with the 18V 801/802 engine.

The bumper thing and preventing damage to other components was more about not having them driving about with no lights on one corner than making repairs cheaper.
Paul Hunt

And Canadian Bs never did get the catalytic convertor although we were stuck with the ZS carburetor and all the other rubber bumper oriented stuff. This applied to cars built for Canada not the odd US one that was diverted up here!..Anthony
Anthony Henderson

My roadster was built in late fall of '64, but is a '65 on paper. Looks like I got the best of both worlds. I have an early pull handle body with the 5-main engine. If I could date it myself I don't know what I'd call it.
Steve Simmons

Model years didn't start till 67 or 68. The 5-bearing engine started in Oct 64 and the push-button handles in Apr 65, nearly 10,000 cars betwen the two changes. The chassis number at the change from 64 to 65 was 54468/9.
Paul Hunt

This thread was discussed between 09/11/2002 and 20/11/2002

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