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MG MGB Technical - Planning to restore/retrofit 65 MGB

Hi,

I recently purchased a 65 MGB (pull handle, 5 main, with wire wheels and factory hardtop), to restore or my wife, thats in need of some sorting out.

The following is a summary of what I'm dealing with, my current ideas for the restoration and questions. I eagerly welcome any comments and information that can be provided. I'm new to LBC, but not to automotive restoration or upgrading. I have some ideas to improve the car and I do hope that I don't ruffle anybody's feathers. I know that in some circles any modification to an older vehicle is considered paramount to sacrelige. I've not actually done anything to the car beyond get it out of the weather and into my garage at this point.

A P.O. had at some point attempted to restore the car and I would assume that he ran out of money or lost interest as the car has a fairly freshly rebuilt drivetrain (probibly not original, done within the last 5 to 3 years and with less than 100 miles on it). The only I.D. tag remaining is the body tag (#046787) The wiring is a disaster and the car has been converted to neg ground with an alternator. The interior is also missing altogether (no seats, carpet, or trim panels). The body is in great shape for the age, there is some surface rust due to weather and poor paint, but the only part of the car that is rusted enough to do any harm is the floorpans, which will have to be replaced, the sills look like they did 40 years ago. At this point a restoration to original would be fruitless. Too much of the original equipment is gone...
What I would like to do is to retain as much of the original look and feel of the car as possible and upgrade as much as possible to improve the ride and performance. Basically I want to have the car look and feel like its supposed to while eliminating the annoying quirks and problems associated with 50 year old british technology. This being a car for my wife, safely is a primary consideration. My priorities for the restoration can be sorted in the following order: Safety, Reliability, Durability, Performance, Original appearance. Also, I have a running 75 MGB that was exposed to a bag of fertilizer to use as a parts car.

I will tear the car down to the body and go through every single part and put it back together after a nice dark blue paint job. Everything that is not pristine will be restored to factory spec or replaced in some fashion. I have played with older cars before and I have no love for gremlins and my wife certainly doesn't.

In terms of safety: I currently plan to add a bolt in roll bar (ugly, I know, but better than a squished head)and use seats out of a late model jap-crap ricer ( I know, I know, but. . . they have very supportive bolsters and headrests and are very well suited for keeping the driver and passenger squarely in place. I also know some ladys that are quite good with leather upholstery) I will also install some 5 point seat belts and I will defiantely do what I can to upgrade the lighting systems to improve visibility.

In terms of reliablity, durability and performance: I haven't quite decided what I want to do with the drive train.
I would like to retain the MG engine as I understand that it is typically quite robust and relatively trouble free. However, I'm not a big fan of a sub 100hp engine. I would definatly like to upgrade the engine but not at the expense of relability or durability. (what's the point of lots of power if you have to overhaul the engine every 10K miles?)As this would be a car to eb driven moreso than raced, Drivablity is much more important than peak output.

I use 5 gear far too much in my daily drivers and I understand that the MG 4 speed is something of a weak link, so I would definitely like to put a 5 speed in there. I've read about several options in terms of conversion kits and I would not want to have to cut up the body. Hopefully someone can recommend some options. . . I see no reason to replace the rear end, maybe I might put a limited slip diff in there is anyone knows where I can get one at a reasonable price. . .
The lucas electrics, already a disaster in this car, have to go. I will run brand new wires in a fashion that makes sense to me (definitely Neg Ground) and I will do away with as many lucas components as I can manage. Hopefully I'll have it down to the starter and dash switches. I might have to keep the wiper motor.
The suspension will get new upgraded polyurathane bushing and springs throughout and the ridiculous lever shocks will have to go, some macpherson strut style tube stocks strike me as the best way to plant the tires to the road in a car this size. I've seen several conversion kits and welcome recommendations. . . Also, Does anyone have any advice regarding upgraded anti-sway bars?

The fuel & brake & clutch lines and hoses will all be replaced with new uprated plumbing and the cylinders & calipers will be rebuilt or replaced as needed. Does anyone know of a rear disc brack conversion for a wire wheel car witha banjo axle? Drum brakes are something that I've learned to distrust over the years and I'd just assume do away with them. Also, I'm thinking that a stainless exhaust setup would be the way to go. That way I can prevent the car from rusting anywhere.

Any chrome that isn't concorse will be rechromed or replaced. All rubber seals and grommets and do-dads will be replaced with fresh, non-rotten pieces. The idea is to restore the car so it looks like it just rolled off the line (actually I'm shooting for better than)until you look too closely at the seats or the the engine. I will use the late model (black painted) soft top frame from the 75 parts car as a summer top and use the hardtop during the cooler, wetter seasons. Does anyone know of any suppliers of some sort of headliner for the factory hardtops? Does anyone have any recommendations on a nice soft top? I've also seen some plexiglass wind deflectors being sold, does anyone know anything about these, I know that simular contraptions work great in newer roadsters like the mazda miata and the honda s2000.

I've seen moss motors offer a "newly designed" cross-flow Al cylinder head and I've also seen their supercharger kit. I doesn't look like the two are compatible. Does anyone have any experience with either or both of these? Which would you recommend? What are the pros and cons of each?

The car currently has some nice "recently rebuilt" dual SU carbs on it. For someone used to a holly or rochester 4 barrel, these things are quite alien. I'm not sure as to the size of the units and while I'm not married to them I an considering using them as they are there already and they are correct for the car. Does anyone have any recommendations in terms of which carburators are both low maintainance and high performance?
It seems to me that I could get some more power from the engine if I can raise the redline. I'm considering some roller rockers and upgraded springs, guides, etc. Titanium valvetrain components are extremely popular with US domestic hot rodders, (decreasing valvetrain mass and increasing component strength is a great way to increase output and the redline). Does anyone know of anybody that offers titanium or other alloy valvetrain/engine internal components? If not what is regarded as the best setup for the 1.8L? Also, Does anyone ahve some recommendations for the cam? I'm looking for a nice level power curve over as much of the RPM band as can be managed.
It occured to me that if someone could manage to put a mild boost whipple twin screw supercharger on a cross-flow head, you should be able to get a lot of power across the RPM band without sacficing too much in terms of reliablity or durablity. Has anyone else considered a simular setup?

I would greatly appreciate any information and or advice that anyone can provide me. This is a big project and will require a lot of time and mmoney over the next few years and I need all of the help that I can get. Thanks
Todd

Hi,
My first thought: Get a Miata.

This might sound blunt, but if you want to have McPhersons and disc brakes all around, 100+ hp, riceburner seats and safety&reliability of a modern car, an MGB just may not be the one for you. For the money, I think you could get a brand new Miata and be more satisfied.

But if you want to go with the B, here are my humble opinions:
0. If you want the car to look&feel like a B should, do as little "radical" stuff as possible.
1. Lever dampers are quite adequate for road use. You may want to get rebuilt and upgraded versions.
2. Lucas electrics are not always bad. But if your wiring is shot, do replace it. If you want to build your own system, get one of those fuse/relay box combos that are advertised in Hot Rod magazine. I'd keep the original style starter, wiper motor and heater, as they would be difficult to replace with modern units.
3. In a lightweight car such as a B, 10" drums are more than enough in the rear. Renew all the moving parts and you save a lot of time and sweat.
4. There's a lot of stuff about the engine in the archives. Unless you want a supercharger, keep the SU's. SU might look like a bizarre design, but a variable venturi is the best carb type there is (I like my SU's in the B and the ZSs in my Saab). If you want a maintenance-free system, install an EFI.
5. Don't install any of those "decorative" rollbars, they can't take the weight of the car if it flips, and in a collision there is a risk that the driver or the passenger hits his/her head on the bar. They are more harmful than useful. Get an SCCA approved bar or similar and use buckets and harnesses to keep the people from moving around and hitting their heads.
6. Last (for now) but not the least: It IS your car (or your wife's), so whatever you do with it, is OK.

Just my 2 cents...

Good luck with your project,
Kari




Kari

Couple of more things...
7. Convert to disc or alloy wheels
8. Install a 3rd brake light and/or some LED or halogen taillights.

Kari

Kari

Todd - YOu have a 100 plus engine in the car right now, albeit not much plus. The MG Owner's Club in England has standard B series engines available that have been bored out to 2 liters, so that is a consideration for more power. Others will have other suggestions in that area.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Lucas electrics except for Dumb Previous Owners who know nothing about things electrical, but who non the less, insist on butchering the electrics of cars. The standard wiring harness with the bullet connectors replaced with posi-lock connectors and with proper ground point preparation will serve you well. The one weak spot is the replacement brake light switches, wheather the hydraulic ones or the mechanical ones. Both are whimpy and should be protected with a relay and arc suppression circuit. The SU fuel pump gets a lot of bad mouthing, but is a perfectly good unit if it has been restored properly. You can do this yourself or send it to any number of people who can restore them. I have a number of articles dealing with electrical issues and the fuel pump at various web sites as follows:
http://www.omgtr.ca/technical/brakelightrelay/brakelightrelay.htm
http://www.omgtr.ca/technical/General%20Technical/grounding.htm
http://www.custompistols.com/cars/articles/dd_su_fuel_pumps_101.htm

The SU carburetors are fine and easy to deal with and in most cases will produce plenty of power. A lot of people go with the Weber side draft carbs for power considerations, but this is an area that I will leave to others to discuss.

There are 5 speed conversions available for the MGBs and other MGs, one being from this outfit: http://www.hi-gearengineering.co.uk/frames.htm
You might also want to consider replacing the existing transmission with a 4 syncro unit with overdrive from a later MGB. The overdrive is a nice addition and one that I won't do without after having one in our MGB for many years.

This is a good place to come with any and all questions. There are always people who have delt with the various aspects of restoring MGBs. Good luck - Dave
David DuBois

<<I do hope that I don't ruffle anybody's feathers>>

Hi Todd,

No, you didn't ruffle my feathers; you plucked me bare BEFORE wringing my neck! LOL!

Do what you like to your own car but personally I think, because of the way you want to modify your car, this BBS isn't suited for your needs.

Obviously you have the resources for an extensive rebuild, so why don't go for a more conservative "resto-rod" approach? Put in a Rover/Buick V8, the modification is well documented in several books you can buy from Amazon AND there's an BBS dedicated to this. While you're at it use the '75 MGB for your project and leave the precious and rare pull-handle body to somebody else to restore?
Willem van der Veer

Well you're certainly in for some time and money Todd.
First off I'd get a drive of a really well sorted B in factory standard spec to set your baseline. You'll find the factory didn't make a bad job of it.
The engine is fine for 100 mph tops and 80+ cruising all day with overdrive. Acceleration is adequate. Reliability is excellent, maybe put on electronic ignition and a spin on filter.
Handling is vintage but quite good enough for the power. Even the shocks work OK.
What I'm saying is the whole package is not at all bad and to improve it means big jumps have to be made in all directions, some of which you have yet not noted;
Your lady will find the steering far too heavy after a modern car and she'll thank you for power steering. The brakes work but are too heavy; a full overhaul and servo will help. Rear discs would be tricky, not off the shelf afaik, and it's the front that need attention anyway.
The engine, transmission and axle are all fine together but none will stand much uprating. Lots will disagree but I'd say stick with a near standard 1800 engine, maybe a gentle head and cam, or go to a Rover V8. Getting power from the old iron lump is hard work, it will never rev, and things like roller rockers come way down the list. A super charger would be my way to go with it but the engine will need low comp pistons, clutch etc, it's not just bolt on, and reliability will suffer.
If you get serious power the g/box and axle won't take it. Again you don't need lsd with standard spec but will if you get 150+ bhp - and tramp bars - de-dion link etc to hold the old thing in place. Finally, when you get this package togther it will then demand serious driver input, it will never be a Merc SL.
Rich.
Rich

Electrical is weak - A gear reduction starter, Amp, electronic ignition, new wiring and all rebuilt gages. I understand people defend Lucas, but the reputation is well earned.

5 speed sounds good.

Lots on sound deadening

Weld in the seat belt anchors early - it is a pain later

It is a good car to work on - nearly everything is available.

Frank Baker

Just a comment on Lucas. I have owned and worked on Lucas equipped cars for more than 35 years and have never found any problems. If you keep the earth conections and the bullet connectors clean (not a big job for enthusiasts) the electrics are just fine. I have had just as much trouble from modern jap crap as I have had with Lucas. The point I am making is that we are all prepared to spend time maintaining old vehicles because they are old, not because they are easy to maintain. The electrics are just another component requiring our attention.

Just thought I would put my to cents worth into this thread.

I also am of the same opinion as others, if you want an MG get one and put up with the thing, if you want a super car, buy one and leave the classics to us who enjoy them.

:)

Tony
Tony OIiver

Another confidence vote for Lucas here. A lot if not most of the problems people complain about today with Lucas is merely old age and previous ham-fisted repairs. That most systems work as well as they do speaks highly of them. When I was at the Volvo show, we commonly saw current cars (meaning 10-ish years old, not vintage cars like ours) where the insulation was literally crumbling and falling off the wires. But do Volvos have a reputation for bad electrics? Not that I've ever heard....

Rob Edwards

Aye, nowt wrong with lucas - it's just the age of the installed components that lets you down.

Also there's nothing wrong with the suspension on the B - if you want struts, buy a porsche! All you need is the right combo of anti-roll bars, and maybe anti-tramp bars and a panhard rod / watt's link.

The engine, on the other hand... blown crossflow sounds idyllic. I did consider this route before I decided on the T16, but eventually decided that the B-series just didn't have quite enough tuning potential. That said I'm sure a very tractable 200ps could be extracted from one as you describe, as long as could can cope with all the development work that that would entail - and it would be a lot!

Best of luck, try not to chop up your rare car too much - someone might want to put it back to standard after you're done with it :o)

--
Olly
Oliver Stephenson

I'll always remember when I went to TR7 school in Jacksonville. Why is everyone going to McPherson struts? I asked? Because it's the cheapest front suspension to build The teacher answered. Nuf said. Bob Thompson
Bob Thompson

Let me clarify a bit.

I've restored a few older cars in the past, mostly mopar and a couple of chevys. I run a salvage yard and I deal with domestic and japanese vehicles running the gammett of the last 40 years on a daily basis. The boss does not like to work on european cars and so we have had very few of them come through the yard. Thus, I've very little experience (none really) with british cars. I only know what I've gleened from the internet and books over the past couple of years while looking for an MGB for my wife. Her father had one when she was a kid and it's her dream car, she drools over every one that she sees.

I understand that the idea of modifying a vintage car is frowned upon by many, believe me you guys are push-overs compared to the mopar guys I know, I've seen fist fights over the color paint used in the engine compartment. I'm not looking to pick any fights, I just want to build the car as best as I can and I need all of the input that I can get. Given that, I'm asking these questions and presenting these ideas because I haven't settled on what I want to do to the car. The car won't be brought back to original (the P.O. has seen to this) but I would like to maintain as much of the OE as possible provided that doing so does not sacrifice much by way of safety, durablity, reliablity, and performance.

I also understand that lucas is not inherently defective. However, every single professional mechanic that I know that has every worked on a british car, including those that specialize in them, as told me that british electrical systems (lucas) are notoriously problematic and done in a fashion that defies convention. The idea of positive ground still doesn't make any sense to me. My point is that I don't have much wiring to start with and I see no point in paying a lot more money for an electrical system that doesn't make sense to me and will require me to consult a schematic whenever I have a problem when I can just run a nice simple harness that makes sense to me and won't have any weak spots. Wiring, isn't something that is readily noticable unless its a rat's nest or just isn't working (currently mine is both).

A couple of weeks ago I managed to aquire the pull handle 65 and a 75 parts car from an older farmer who had them sitting in a field rusting. I've got the 65 at home in my garage and the parts car at the yard, where it gets dirty looks from the boss. ( if you've never seen what happens to a car when you set a bag of fertilizer on the fender and leave it for a season, I suggest you put a bag on the neighbor kid's honda civic . . .) Since I've actually got a car now, my research has been intensified. I know that I'm going to tear the car down and rebuild it. I just haven't settled on how I'm going to rebuild it. As I have no documentation on the car beyond the previous owner's title and one id tag on the LH inner fender, as well as not having any of the interior and the wiring actually had squirrels go through it. . . I don't see that a concorse restoration would be in the best interest of the car. If I had more documenation or a more complete starting point I could see it, but I don't and I just want to make the nicest car that I can manage with what I have to work with. I also want to have the whole project planned out before I get started.

My wife hates the idea of the roll bar, but I insisted that I would rather have the car roll over and sit on the roll bar than on her head. The roll bar that I have is currently bolted into my parts car. I suppose that once I've removed all of the usable parts from the parts car I could pick it up with my front end loader and drop it from about twenty feet up (it should produce a velocity that would be comparable to a roll over collision) to see if the roll bar can bear the weight of the car. If the roll bars holds, I'll clean it up and install it in the 65, If not, It will be crushed with the parts car tub.

I'm seriously considering using jap-crap seats for a few reasons: 1, they are free to me, I've got tons of them at the salvage yard. 2, they do a much better job of holding a person in place and are much more comfortable than MG OEM seats (the difference is as great as the difference between a cinderblock and the MG OEM seats.) 3, I know some ladys who can upholster the seats in such a way that they will retain a style that fits with the MGB and would appear to be stock to someone who doesn't know any better. 4, The seats used in 65 are likely to break the driver's neck in a collision and given the way people around here drive, I just don't see that as acceptable.

My wife loves these little cars, but she also is the sort of person that gets extremely frusterated when she encounters a mechanical problem. Thus, I will be tearing the car down and essentially remanufacturing it so as to remove any gremlins before they ruin her day. I would also like to address the weak spots in the design. I know that there are those who love their cars so much that they would rather dismiss a design imperfection as part of the character of the car and refuse to admit that there is anything that is less than perfect. The fact is, every single vehicle ever made has at least a couple of weak spots. GM can't make a decent 4 cylinder engine to save their lives, Ford will never learn how to make an automatic transmission that won't burn up after the tiniest bit of metal shavings get into the fluid, Chrysler will never admit that mitsubishi engines are junk and stuck with torsion bars far too long, Toyota will never learn to provide sufficient oil pressure to the valve train after a bit of crud settles, Honda never could make a distributor that would hold up and they still haven't figured out that a serviceable transmission filter is a good idea, VW has gone insane with their computer systems and will probibly never get it to where it works like it should. My point is that while brand/marque loyalty has its place, I'm not afraid of taking something that works well enough and replacing it with something that works better if it means that it will someday help my wife avoid an accident or minimize her injury in an accident. To me, no car and no ideal held because of a brand loyalty is worth more than she is.

I would like to retain the look and character of the car, but this isn't going to be a trailer queen that gets carted to car shows to collect trophies, its a car that will be driven and the build should reflect that. I'm not looking to turn the car into something its not, I just want to address the weak spots and do what I can to improve the car in as unobtrusive a fashion as I can manage. I certainly don't want to cut up the car. I just want to make it as nice as possible given what I've got to start with. The idea is to make an MGB the way MG would have made one had they had access to the sort of stuff I have access to now.

I would like to use the MGB engine because I've got a fresh one and while they aren't overly powerful, I understand that they are remarkably durable and reliable. Anything that I can do to the engine that does not sacrifice performance, durablity, or reliablity and improves at least one of these just seems like a good idea. Electronic ignition seems like the way to go, but there are a lot of systems out there, does anyone have any recommendations? I still haven't decided it I want to keep the engine stock or if I want to replace the head with an Al or Al crossflow unit and upgrade the valvetrain. While the idea of a supercharger is interesting, the added wear to the engine will probibly outwiegh it. Any info would be appreciated.

I've had four speed cars, I hate driving a four speed car on the highway, the thought of the engine just wearing away is a bit too consuming. While an electronic overdrive is certainly vintage, it seems overly complex and problematic when there are nice simple 5 speed conversion kits available that just bolt right in and cost less that an overdrive conversion.

The lever shocks aren't something that can be seen unless you crawl under the car or pull the wheel(s). From what I have been told, they are prone to leak, are often unreliable, and just don't work as well as a simple tube shock. The fitting of tubular shocks strikes me as a good way to keep the car on the road without changing the character of its handling, just improving it, while also improving reliablity and durability. Tubular shock conversions are also cheaper that new lever shocks. Given this, beyond the desire to retain orignal style equipment, I see no reason not to put tubular shocks on the car. (the lever shocks on the car now are toast and will have to be replaced anyways.)

Ideally, the shape of the seats and the 5th gear in the shift pattern will be the most obtrusive modifications made to the car. My pragmantism tends to outweigh my sentiment and I welcome any ideas anyone has regarding this build. I aim to use only bolt-on modifications and will retain what original pieces that I have so that if I ever sell the car someone could put the old stuff back.

Again, any input and information is greatly appreciated. Your input could effect the ay that this car is built, so if you really love these cars and you are convinced that your way is the right way, just convince me, I am open to any ideas and haven't firmly settled on anything except the wiring. thanks
Todd



Todd,

Dan Masters makes modern wiring harnesses for these cars that are well respected.
He's usually on the v8 portion of the forum.

Save your money on the tube shocks. They have at best moderate feedback. The value and handling are not there. Worldwide autoparts does great rebuilds of the lever arm and they are guaranteed not to leak.

Keep the alternator but if you go to a crossflow head and dual webers you need one in there that lays down low like the original lucas units. You can order a 43 amp autolite from kragen and you'll actually get a lucas unit.

The crossflow and intake can be had from dr. marty on ebay, about 1100 and 175 respectively. The carbs you can get new or rebuilt from ebay. Dellortos fit the same. Used, rebuilt and flow tested 250-400 for a pair of 40's.

Modern starter likewise from dr. marty about 175(?)

5 speed conversions around 2200-2600 depending on supplier.

Sway bar front 3/4 inch, no rear sway bar and gt front springs (550 pound at laden weight, slightly lower.)

There was a crossflow with a blower a while back. It raced in the sixties/seventies I believe. Look on the mgbexperience board and look for mgaadams. There were some recent threads about it.

Tim (?) on this board has put a blower on a 2.1 litre engine (available from MGOC) and has great results.

Likwise you can look up vem myers work - he has both a crossflow car and a blown car.

And find the clubs near you- ask to get a drive in a nicely turned out car. You'd be surprised how quick and sporty these little cars already are.

good luck

Tom
Tom M

Todd: Since you work for a bone yard find a good 280ZX gearbox and contact these guys: http://www.rivergate5speed.com/rivergate.html

Their conversions have received a lot of good feedback.
As to seats, many use either Miata seats or Fiero seats. Check the archives or google with "MGB+ Fiero seats".

Andy Blackley

Todd: After I posted that I realized you have a '65, which has a smaller tranny tunnel. You may want to call Rivergate to seek their advice about the feasibility of modifying your car.
Andy Blackley

Just a comment - Lucas - There is a reason why Delco, Denso, Bosch, and a half a dozen others dominate the electro – mechanical world. Lucas has failed in the market place for the same reason they are replaced by other makers so often – They are inferior. Straight, simple and sorry – painful to some.
F Murch

"Dan Masters makes modern wiring harnesses for these cars that are well respected."

Tom,

Thanks for giving me an opening so I wouldn't seem too crass and commercial by mentioning it myself.

http://www.advanceautowire.com

Thanks
Dan Masters

Todd,

Thanks for clarifying your position, if I would work at a breakers yard, I would think the same. And by your description the cars indeed aren't candidates for a concours rebuild. If it's worth anything to you: you've got my blessing.

Just some thoughts that spring to mind:
Are you sure it's a 5-bearing engine? I thought that pull-handles always had 3-bearing engines (3-bearing enginenr. starts with 18G or 18GA, 5-bearing 18GB/GD/GF/GG/GH/GJ/GK OR 18V)

Before you crush the donors body be sure to cut out the transmission tunnel, the older tunnel is rather narrow, too narrow for most transmissions.

The '65 "banjo" rear-axle is less strong than the '75 one, but might fetch some nice money as the 3.9 ratio will fit MGA's.

If the car is meant for your wife, the V8 option I proposed earlier might not be the way to go, but maybe you should have a close look at some Datsun/Nissan 4 cylinder engines from the seventies/eighties. In the sixties the Datsun engines where the same B-series as fitted to your B! Just maybe you will be so lucky to discover that they used that block for an OHV engine, making fitment in the B easy? British Leyland did that with the O-series engine.

Good luck!
Willem van der Veer

Hi Todd,
I don't think anyone's feathers are quite getting ruffled yet, but don't write off "keep it stock" responses as just the comments of blindered originality freaks either.

1. Lucas electrics aren't necessarily bad, but I'll accept that they may be different than what you're used to. There is a simple logic to them, and you can find color charts that show what a circuit does for nearly any car with Lucas: http://www.mgdriversclub.com/tech/wire-colors.html

For instance, if I see a green wire, I know that it's a power supply wire that's fused and switched with the ignition. Doesn't matter if it's on an MG, a Jag, or what. Add a red tracer, and then I know that it goes from the turn signal switch to the left hand flashers. There are some exceptions to the rules of course, but it's pretty reliable. If the current wiring harness is toast and will need to be completely replaced, then you may well be right that it would be more understandable to you to replace it with something you're familiar with. But then you're into the realm of engineering a lot of it yourself, so you don't have the resources available to troubleshoot it that someone with a stock setup would have. Only you can say whether that's important to you. And I doubt it will be much simpler, as these cars are pretty simple to begin with.

2. Nearly everyone I've discussed it with have been very unhappy with their tube-shock conversions -- especially on the rear. The mounts break if they're not designed properly, the shocks are too hard, etc. They end up being no more reliable and don't work as well. The lever shocks on the other hand work well, and if you get good quality rebuilts should give many years of troublefree service. I've got 9-year-old rebuilts on the front of my '69 and the originals on the rear. If you want something a little firmer, you can change the valves in them.

3. You say the "Jap-crap" seats are more comfortable than the MG seats, but you also say you're new to MGs, so are you comparing the Japanese car seats to worn-out, dilapidated MG seats? Sit in some freshly reworked MG seats before you make the call. I can certainly understand your concern about the early seats causing neck injury....

4. Per the engine, get a copy of Peter Burgess's "How to Power Tune MGB Four-cylinder Engines." It should have lots of food for though about how to uprate the engine. The biggest bang for the buck is to be had in head porting. SU carbs work very well when in proper repair and set up properly. A side-draught Weber may have a little more potential for an all-out engine, but for a street engine I doubt you'd utilise it. Many people swear by down-draught Webers, but I don't see any benefit and have no interest in them. In the case of either Weber, the are a lot of adjustments you can make (main jets, idle jets, emulsion tubes, air correction jets, etc), which translate into lots of adjusments that you can get wrong. SUs on the other hand have two normal adjustments -- jet position (you move the jet up and down to adjust the mixture) and needle profile. (There are two "abnormal" adjustments -- damper oil viscosity and damper spring strength, but you shouldn't need to worry about them. Use the stock springs and engine oil). SUs' main weakness are throttle shaft wear and the aforementioned ham-fisted DPOs.


It continually amazes me how everyone, enthusiasts included, automatically assume that the factory engineers were idiots and that they can do it all better by bolting some stuff on. And the bad part is that a lot of their misconceptions get entrenched as "common knowledge" and treated as unquestionably true. Truth is, the factory engineers got an awful lot of it right. That's why these cars continue to have such a loyal following and have survived as long as they have. I'm not saying "For the love of Kimber don't change a thing!" (although I do tend more toward the originality side of the scale), but don't equate "unfamiliar" with "inadequate" and thus create a lot of needless work for yourself -- work which yields no benefit....

If I were in your shoes, here's what I'd probably do.
Keep it all stock, except:
1. Engine mods per Burgess, keeping the SUs, stock manifolds, probably go to Falcon Big-bore exhaust. (I have one on my '69 and like it). Spin-on oil filter if it doesn't already have one.
2. Dual-circuit brakes.
3. Negative earth conversion, single 12v battery, maybe an alternator (but only if the generator proved itself to be not up to the task. Otherwise repolarise it and keep it).
4. Zippered rear window on the top. (Much better on a 100-degree day to have the top up & lots of ventilation than putting the top down, and much better than top up and no ventilation).
5. Better seat belts.
6. Some kind of 5th gear/overdrive is very nice but not strictly necessary.

That's all I can think of. For the rest, I like the vintage look and feel, and if it's in good repair and properly maintained it's functional & reliable. If it's not in good repair, make it so (and undo any DPO "fixes" you run across.) If on the other hand what you really want is a modern car, you'd be miles ahead just buying one. My 2¢, of course! ;-)

HTH!
Rob Edwards

Todd;

A few comments from a guy who has done a ground up, near concours, with a very hot engine, restoration of a 66 MGB.

1) If you have a pull handle with the original engine, I would recommend that you check the engine number against one of the MGB reference books to make sure you have a 5 main engine. If you have a 3 main engine, the recommendation is to not modify it as it just increases the probability of breaking the crank.

2) Since you have access to a wrecking yard and sound like a guy who is familiar with a set of wrenches and a welding torch, I have to agree with the recommendation to convert to a Rover 3.5 liter. Your best bet is to get one of the Land Rover engines with EFI and that will be an engine with the most reliability and the kind of HP and torque you are looking for. MGB engines run great, but I would never use one as a daily (or even non-daily) driver for the wife. MGB engines have a carefully installed bit of British techno-wizardry (see Hogwarts School of Engine Design) that absolutely knows the best time to stop the engine from starting so as to wreak the most havoc in your life. Also, the MGB was offered as a V8 in England (never made it to the U.S.) so you would actually be staying in period, so to speak, if you pop in a Rover V8.

3) Miata seats are a common replacement seat for MGB's and will fit the MGB seat runners with a bit of minor fiddling. Instead of 5 point belts, try 6 point belts. If you ever have to use them as intended, you will appreciate that 6th belt.

4) Don't trust the sills one bit!!! MGB sills are very complex pieces of engineering and they rust from the inside out. Pull the front fenders off the car and if you see any sign of rusting on the sill panel front sections, replace them. If you see any sign of even minor bubbling on the rear fender doglegs (the fender part down low behind the door opening), replace the sills. If you see any sign of minor bubbling on the main sill sections, replace them. This may seem like I am beating a dead horse, but the sills are an absolutely critical piece to keeping the car from folding in half.

5) Pierce Manifolds import the HiGear conversion kit and provide good support for the product and have a web site. The Ford Sierra gear box is good for about 300 hp. The recommendation to swap gearbox tunnels is a good suggestion. Also, don't get rid of the tunnel if you cut it out. This is one of the few pieces that is not stamped anymore as an individual replacement piece.

6) MGB's do 80% of the braking with the front discs. If you do go to a V8 or drastically increase the HP of the stock engine, I would recommend that you convert to the 4 pot V8 calipers and vented discs.

7) Putting in a proper roll bar may not allow you to use either a convertible top or hard top. The SCCA approved roll bars are too tall for the convertible tops and hard tops. Since you are down in NASCAR country, you might want to find someone to make a custom one for you that will fit and provide proper roll protection.

Good luck, have fun with the project and keep us up to date.
Ron Kluwe

"It continually amazes me how everyone, enthusiasts included, automatically assume that the factory engineers were idiots and that they can do it all better by bolting some stuff on."

Rob, unfortunately in a lot of these cases it wasn't the engineers who are idiots (I know you weren't saying they are) but the bean counters. The solution you get is typically some compromise between the very best technical solution and the cheapest possible solution.

Not just for cars either.
Simon Jansen

The engine,as near as I can determine, is a 5 main, the PVC valve and other tell tale exterior differences (per looking at the exploded view pictures in the catalog) suggest this. the engine tag is gone, so I'm leaning towards the possibility that its not original, the car has already been hamfistedly converted to neg ground and has a lucas alternator mounted. Due to the rats nest that is the wiring, I've not been able to start it. I'm not keen on sorting out the mess only to tear it apart immediately afterwards just to hear an engine, that is very clearly a fresh rebuild, run. While I'm not determined to do everything stock, I'm also not dead set on changing everything just for the sake of changing it. Also, I had order peter burgess' book on amazon a couple of days ago, along with a restoration guide published by hanes as well as a couple of workshop manuals. At this point I'm batting ideas around and I'm not really married to anything as of now. I do appreciate all of the information provided thus far and look forward to any more gems of knowledge. thanks
Todd

One more thought -- if the car has wire wheels, get some Dayton tubeless wheels. Tubes are a pain in the ---. Ask me how I know! ;-) If it has disk wheels, they're somewhat rare. I would keep them for that reason....
Rob Edwards

Why not just rebuild this car to original spec. It certainly won't be original but if you consider the interior which is missing that is no real loss because all of that is normally replaced anyway in a full rebuild. Use the opriginal engine and get a 3synchro gearbox with overdrive. Use lever arm dampers which work well and don't be tempted to fit poly bushes yet at least until you can get the feel of how an original car should look and perform.

This car is for your wife so safety is paramount. A remote brake servo makes a lot of sense and perhaps that ugly roll over bar but if you build the car as it should be you can then evaluate it over a period of time and then decide what you want to change or update.

Lucas electrics, well what can I say, they are still around after 40 years so are certainly not crap and anyone who says they are should consider what other electrics are still operational after all that time. The system is so simple it really requires no skill to fault find and repair. Fit a new loom, go negative earth and use the Lucas 17ACR or Bosch alternator. Replace any switches etc that are faulty.

Your wife will be delighted.




Iain MacKintosh

Todd,

I'm not quite sure I follow all your logic. A cross flow head, blower, uprated brakes, etc, etc will cost thousands and thousands. Shocks can be rebuilt to eliminate leaks for about 80 dollars. New seats, complete from Moss in leather, cost less than a blower and in new condition are as comfortable as anything modern. You seem to have a lot of preconceived notions about the weaknesses of the early cars which frankly are not true, just a conglomeration of many inempt mechanics's opinions and perhaps the quality of some of the later Laylanized cars. A new wiring harness seems to be in order. It's organised and complete--about 400 bucks. I'm not sure what you mean when you say the dpo has done so much that it could never be brought back to factory like appearances--sounds like it's all there to me. All you need is the dash and the instruments--everything else is easy and as Iain points out, is replaced as part of a routine rebuild anyway. You should note that the early cars had narrow gearbox tunnels and the later gearboxes and most conversions will not fit without bashing the narrow tunnel to fit.

I am 1000% in favor of modifications to make our cars more enjoyable, safer and reliable. Try to find a pristine early car to test drive before making too many non standard changes. They may be unessesary ones. I just finished a 3000 mile, high speed trip on the freeways; 75 to 80 mph all day long in a completly stock 64 with overdrive. Plenty of power if you give it some juice off the line! The only mods I have are a zip out window, 175/14 radial tires, and an armrest from an MGA. I always felt as safe as anyone doing road warrior duty. I was comfortable, warm and dry thru 8 rainy days.

Brakes and suspention are excellent after complete rebuild to stock including all springs, V8 bushings and shocks. I even have the small sway bar up front and it seems more than adequate---but I'm not a racer and doubt your wife will drive aggressivly enough to warrant much more--perhaps I'm wrong.

I too don't wish to seem smart alec or to flame, but perhaps a Miata would better suit your needs. If you decide to stick with the MGB, welcome. This BBS is a great resource. Take things one step at a time--you'll have your hands full more than you know with these cars!


Safety Fast,

Paul
Paul Hanley

You are the first person to recommend holdin off on the poly bushings. I understand that they will result a somewhat rougher and noisier ride but beyond that I can't think of a reason not to use them, none the less you are more experienced than I am. Would you be so kind as to enlighten me? thanks
Todd

Todd,
Paul bought up a really good point, there should be a local club in your area. You might be able to see some of the recommendations given here, in real life. This coupled with the great information you are getting here might help you make choices that will in the long run save you lots of $$$$$. I belong to the Philly club, and there are excellent examples of stock B's along with, V6 and V8 conversions, with all the bells and whisles. Good luck with your project.

Regards,
Ed Bullard
67BGT
68B
71BGT
80BLE
Edward Bullard

Todd

Check the archives and search on "poly bushing" or "superflex". Some poly bushes are very hard with a resulting hard ride (more for the racing applilcation) while others (from superflex) provide essentially the same hardness (and ride) as the rubber but with much longer life. At least that is what the threads in the archives seem to say.

FWIW

Larry
Larry Hallanger

The reason "lever shocks leak" is because they're 40 years old. The solution to this problem is to have them rebuilt. I'd like to see how well a 40 year old tube shock works!

And don't let SU carbs scare you. Once you understand the straightforward design of an SU, you'll wonder why the idiots that designed those other carburetors needed all those finnicky parts to do such a simple job.
David Breneman

That's right, the poly bushes whilst they do give better location etc transmit more noise and harshness through the car. I suggested starting virtually from a standard car which Paul largely agrees with so that you can assess its weaknesses first hand.....if you think there are any and then tweak it from there. The rubber bushes are cheap as are the poly ones and are easy to replace.

He rightly points out that you should use V8 front bushes as they provide much better wishbone location and improve the steering significantly.
Iain MacKintosh

Wow, what an entertaining read this thread is! I think it's all been said but I may as well throw in my 1.34 cents USD while I'm here.

Early cars are definately more rare than later ones and for that reason alone I would vote for keeping it as close to stock as possible. There's certainly nothing wrong with bolt-on modifications and it seems like you have an appreciation for keeping your mods reversable. But I agree with what man others have said about unnecessary modifications.

Disc rear brakes would be great, but there is nothing wrong with the drum units on the car. They are more than adequate and the front discs do most of the work anyway. Go with green stuff pads and stainless hoses and forget the rest. A dual-circuit system is certainly do-able if it makes you feel safer.

Most problems with British cars are indeed electrical, but 98% of the time it's due to improper repairs or junk parts installed by one of many previous owners, each adding to the mess. Replace the wiring harness with a new one, clean and service all the electrical components and connectors and you will have a very reliable car. In 15 years of driving my '65 B I've had only a handful of electrical issues, all very minor.

I'm not sure what kind of power you're looking for but the stock engine can propel you to well over 100MPH. If it's greater acceleration you're after, you can gain a lot by installing a Burgess head, a slightly hotter cam and getting rid of the restrictive stock air filters, which are one of the few bad desings on the car. With this work done it should accelerate with zeal. Or, install a Moss supercharger and gain 40 horsepower in an afternoon of work. Feedback has been tremendous on these units. Check out the supercharging forum on this site for more info.

On suspension, I would recommend rebuilding to stock. Lever shocks are very reliable and will last many years if not decades before needing replacement or rebuilding. In 300,000 miles I believe my B has gone through 6 shocks. Can't say the same for any other type of shock I've used! For the rest, unless you plan to drive the car hard in the corners the stock suspension design is very much up to the task of daily driving. MGBs have always been known for their crisp and accurate handling ability and I can't think of one component that I would call a "weak link". For spirited driving I'd recommend poly or V8 rubber bushings. If you really like to push it, upsize the front sway bar a little and lower the car 1/2" with stiffer springs. Minilite wheels will make a big difference as well although I personally much prefer the looks of wire wheels.

For seats, you can install Miata or Fiero seats, or get a later set of MGB seats. I saw someone install headrests on a set of early seats complete with matching piping once. It was beautiful! If you're handy with this stuff it's another option and would be a real head-turner at club events.

Good luck with whatever you decide!
Steve Simmons

This thread was discussed between 22/03/2005 and 27/03/2005

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