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MG MGB Technical - Rear Springs - What's the trick?

I can't seem to get the rear springs installed. What's the trick to get both ends bolted on properly? Without the springs compressed, they do not reach the holes on both ends. But how can I compress the springs without them bolted in? I'm stumped!

On a secondary note, I'm installing Superflex bushings as well. Some of them are extremely tight. Any suggestions?
Steve Simmons

The way I do it:

Install the front end of the spring, complete with bushes, but do not tighten the bolt up. At the back end put the bushes into the mounting holes on the chassis rail, put one half of the shackle in place and put the bolt in, do not put the shackle on the other side. Take a large screwdriver and put one end of the other shackle half over the shaft, put the shaft of the screwdriver through the eye of the spring and through the end of the shackle that is mounted to the chassis rail.

Use the screwdriver as a lever to pull the spring into place until the shackle half over the screwdriver can also be pushed over the mounting bolt on the chassis rail.

You will now have the bushes, shackles and bolt in place on the chassis rail and the spring attached to the shackles with the screwdriver at the other end. With some careful juggling around you can then put the bushes into the spring eye one at a time and finally get the bolt in place by using the screwdriver as a lever.

The tight bushes can be lubricated with dish soap.

Hope this makes sense - it does to me but I am on my third beer! :-)
MikeB

I didn't understand Mike's explanation, but maybe I need a few more beers, so I can catch up with him ...

The way I do it is to put the bolt in the front end of the leaf spring and front spring mount and not tighten it (as Mike described), then support the spring in the middle with a hydraulic floor jack.

You should be able to take a little bit of the arch out of the spring by lifting the jack. It should be positioned directly under the axle mounting point. It doesn't take all that much force, maybe 30-40 lbs to get it where you need it to be. Then with bushings already installed in the spring eyelet and frame mounting hole, wiggle the shackle with the two protruding bolts into place. It will probably try to push the opposite halves of the bushings out as it goes in, so push them back in before they go all the way out, as it will be a hassle to get them in once the shackle is installed.


Finger tigten the nuts, but don't torque them down until the car is on the ground with its normal weight on the suspension.
Mark B

I did it by bolting in the rear-end housing first, then the front bolt, then muscling in the rear shackle last. Didn't need a jack, but was a little sore afterwards.
Brian

I have just done this twice to a 67. First spring were sent back to VB. I install the rear first and the by hand force the front in to place and put the bolt through. Not alot of trouble if the the springs are correct.
I don have a lift to work with though.
steve

Steve, are you installing new springs? Lots of threads out there about the new springs having too much arch. My mga front framerail is resting on top of a pair of new vb springs right now.
Fred Horstmeyer

Steve,
I used a bottle jack below the spring to lift it as mentioned above. What really helped me was to place a piece of 3/4" plywood between the boot floor and the end of the rear sping; then, as you jack up, the spring will slide back toward the rear so that you can put the shackle through. Use plenty of bushing lube so the shackle'll go in easily.

Best, Joe
Joe Ullman

These springs are indeed new, and are from Moss Motors. They do have a lot more arc than my old ones, but the old springs were nearly 40 years old! I have no idea what the arc should be.

My method so far had me working for over an hour to get the springs first bolted to the axle, and the rear shackle all hooked up to one spring rear. At that point I gave up for the evening. Sitting like it is, the front point is a good three inches from where it needs to be. I thought of somehow hanging a 50-pound plate from it to flatten things out a bit.

Question again... how the heck do you remove the front (large) bushings? They are stuck fast! I want to install the front Superflex bushings.
Steve Simmons

On the mga the front leaf spg bushes are rubber with steelinsert and a steel sheath. To get them out of the spring eyelet, I was able to push out the inner tube and then take apart my hacksaw, put the blade through the bushing and then reassemble the saw and cut through the steel sheath tube. Then simply punch it out.

There are some very detailed threads on the rear leaf springs. There are even measurements for the arch. 50 pounds won't do anything.
Fred Horstmeyer

Here it is:

Thread: New springs

Art Pearse
Ontario
pearse@ripnet.ca Posted 12 June 2002 at 01:15:39 UK time
Just got my nice new rear springs from Vic Brit and installed springs and axle into frame. 2 problems encountered. 1) Had to shim the front bushing each side with washers as the clearance was too generous and 2) spring camber is quite high. With only the bare frame weight (body is off) the ebound pegs are 11.5" apart and the rebound straps are 9" between centres, plus the rear shocks are 3/4" short of connecting to the rods when in full down position. I realise there is no weight on them yet but surely it should be possible to assemble the components so far, w/o having to put the body on (that will be a long time at current rate of progress!) Any comments? This seems a common topic - too much camber. What should I do?




George B.
Wildomar
Ca.
Posted 12 June 2002 at 03:02:55 UK time
Worry about it later if the unloaded camber is per spec. Same thing happens to me on the TD with stock springs. Don't tighten any of the bushes, front or rear, before the body is in place.



Steve
IL
Posted 12 June 2002 at 09:11:58 UK time
I installed new VB springs on my car about 2 weeks ago. It really jacked up the back end. I didn't take before measurements must it must of raised it by about 3 inches.

The rebound straps were put on with great difficulty. I've been driving around to help things settle in. However, it is still riding very high. The pressure managed to rip through one of my new rebound straps.

If it doesn't settle in I may have to remove a leaf from the springs.

It looks unnatural with an A jacked up like a hot rod.

Steve



glenn johnson
Wake Forest
NC USA
glennj1@mindspring.com Posted 12 June 2002 at 14:43:51 UK time
Send them back/no question if they compare unfavorably to the originals - Unless you just drive in parades + hang around ice cream shops, your new high rear suspension will cause quick lifting in the corners. How do they compare upside-down on the bench? Anything greater than 1/2" is unacceptable in my mind. Don't depend on time to 'settle' them. My new ones from moss were ~3/4" higher in camber + I'm thinking about putting my old ones back on. There should be ~ 3" inches of lateral play to the rebound straps. try jacking your car weighted/mid-section + watch that rear come off the ground much sooner than the front.



Steve
Posted 12 June 2002 at 16:01:07 UK time
Glenn:

Good points. I realized the new ones weren't close to the ones I pulled off the car. The old springs were sagging/damaged and thought that might explain the difference.

For potiential VB spring buyers: On my car it's a 1" stretch to get the rebound straps on - and then they will end up tearing through due to the pressure. My after install measurement from the ground to the top of the fender well is 27-1/4 inches. Wish I had the before measurement.

Can anyone take a similar measurement of their A? It's clearly off the mark, just wondering how much?

Thanks,
Steve



art pearse
ontario
pearse@ripnet.ca Posted 13 June 2002 at 01:18:17 UK time
Thanks for the input. I consulted the MGA owners handbook. It says "3.6 inches free camber" I measured the springs, straightedge across the tops of the eyes, down to the top of the top leaf, 5 7/8" (spring in normal upright position). That would be 5 1/4" from the centres of the spring eyes to the top of the leaf. I don't know how "free camber" is defined, but I would say I have about 1 3/4" too much. Right now I'm talking to customer service and will pass on measurements to them. Let you know how I get on.....
Another thing, they have 7 leaves, book says 6, but then the old springs had 7 as well.



glenn johnson
Wake Forest
NC USA
glennj1@mindspring.com Posted 13 June 2002 at 16:14:24 UK time
All: I believe Doug Jackson sells custom long rebound straps for our cars... have thought about that mod .... they also sell composite leaf springs too for high performance/handling applications....good luck Art! http://www.mgbmga.com/



art perarse
ontario
pearse@ripnet.ca Posted 20 June 2002 at 23:02:53 UK time
Just an update on the situation. All of VB stock has the high camber. Somehow, their spec is 7.25", measured from a line thru the eyes centres to the bottom of the bottom leaf. This is ~ 1.75" too much. So resolution was to get a refund. They say they sell lots with no complaints !!
Next step - find a supplier with the right spec of 3.6" camber. Any leads?



Art Pearse
Ontario
pearse@ripnet.ca Posted 21 June 2002 at 19:26:48 UK time
Just called Little British. Their spring suppliers have even more curved springs.
This is a real dilemma! Can anyone recommend a supplier who has the right spring specs?




Mike
London
Ontario
mhosier@sympatico.ca Posted 23 June 2002 at 16:28:48 UK time
Art, don't know where you are in Ontario but I am in London. I recently went to a company in Sarnia called Obsolete Automotive. They specialize in British car parts if you don't already know of them. While there and wandering around their warehouse at their semi-annual garage sale I saw two barrels full of leaf springs marked for MGA. I believe the sticker said made in UK but not absolutely certain. I believe they have a website too. Might be worth checking it out. I didn't buy any springs as I didn't need them so can't tell you any of the details or specs. Good luck !!

Mike !!



art pearse
Ontario
pearse@ripnet.ca Posted 23 June 2002 at 20:38:06 UK time
Mike, thanks a lot. I'm in the Brockville area (North Augusta). I will check them out!



Bob
England
Posted 23 June 2002 at 20:49:05 UK time
Every MG that has ever been rebuilt with new leaf springs on the rear will have had the same symptons as you are experiencing. After a month or two the springs settle down and thus all the owners become happy. Whilst I can understand your observations about measuring the camber of the spring, that is only a small part of the design and performance of it. The main criteria of the spring itself is what is called Spring rate, therefore if you are determined to get the identical spring to that fitted by Abingdon then find out the spring rate and profile, then go to any spring makers and have them make you a pair.



Simon Beyertt
Esslingen(Germany)
simon.beyertt@ifsw.uni-stuttgart.de Posted 24 June 2002 at 09:28:55 UK time
High,
just a comment to connecting the straps with the body removed. On my car I used the original springs and wasent able to mount the straps while the body was still removed, even having one person standing on the frame didnt help. After installing the body and all the rest (seats etc) I was able to get the stipes on.
Greetings
Simon



art
ontario
Posted 24 June 2002 at 23:30:03 UK time
Anyone know the UNSPRUNG weight on the back end (ie not counting wheels, axle and springs?
A comment regarding "settling in" of springs, mentioned a lot - I'm uneasy with this theory. If springs have to settle in, why does this not happen with new cars? Coil springs? My scientific training was that metal comes back to the exact same point after stressing, provided you do not exceed the "elastic limit" or go through a zillion cycles and fatigue it. So the only way springs get out of shape is to go over large bumps or big potholes, fast. I don't see myself doing that just to get my rear end level!
So far no luck in my search. Obsolete Auto was no flatter than VB, and 2.5 X the price.



Chuck Schaefer
Illinois
crschaef@mc.net Posted 25 June 2002 at 01:36:46 UK time
Art, your scientific training is correct, but I'll bet that you never were trained in MG engineering. All joking aside, I can confirm that they do, in spite of our engineering, settle in. My car was rebuilt using the original springs and I could not attach the rebound straps until the car was reassembed. My only thought on the settling matter is that there may be some friction between the leaves that must be overcome before the leaves set to their normal "weighted" position. This friction may also be in the mounting mechanism.

I have heard that leaf springs can be re-arched. But I an unfamiliar with the results. Maybe someone else can offer some info.

Chuck



glenn johnson
Wake Forest
NC USA
glennj1@mindspring.com Posted 25 June 2002 at 14:36:22 UK time
Has anyone out there put on leaf springs that were arched too high at the outset + had them 'settle' significantly ( > 1/2" )? I don't think that more than 1/2" settlement could be anticipated over most of the life of the springset.



Bob
England
Posted 25 June 2002 at 16:26:45 UK time
Art forgive me but UNsprung weight is the exact opposite of what you are aspiring too. It is the weight of the wheels axle and springs, if you discount these items then you are left with only the sprung weight. I agree with Chuck, that the initial problem is related to friction between the leaves ( I think actually the correct term is leafs) and the pivots. With everything on my car I had to put 2 5gallon containers full of water in the boot (trunk) and then jacked up each side of the axle until I was able to fit the strap and shocker.



glenn johnson
Wake Forest
NC USA
glennj1@mindspring.com Posted 25 June 2002 at 16:50:48 UK time
Bob: do you presently have slack in the rebound straps? There should be a good 2,3" of inherent slack...



art
ontario
Posted 25 June 2002 at 23:38:13 UK time
Bob, you are right, I meant sprung weight, not unsprung.
As for "leafs" I thought the only legitimate use of that form of plural was as in "Toronto Maple Leafs"!



Ray Ammeter
Wash
USA
Posted 26 June 2002 at 01:52:19 UK time
It will be two years ago that I installed new rear leaf springs from LBC. The new leafs made the car sit too high, so I put five sand bags in the trunk. Total weight of those was 350 pounds. Over the winter of 2000-2001 they sat in the trunk for about 5 months. I measured rear height before I put the bags in the trunk and as I put more in. When all the sand bags were in the height went down about 2 inches.
I was hoping the rear end would settle in for about a 1 inch drop, but I only got about a 3/8 to 1/2 inch drop when the bags were removed. As someone mentioned with the new springs concerning cornering, it made the car a little too squirly in the corners. It let the car have too much body roll, giving a oversteer to the car. This winter I installed a set of Prothane bushings on just the "rear end" of the leaf springs. They allowed less body roll. I didn't noticed anymore stiffness in the bounce, since I did leave the spring pads and the front bushing as original.

Ray




Randy
Sask
Posted 26 June 2002 at 03:38:53 UK time
Art
Just go to your local spring shop. They will make you up a set and it will probably be cheaper than anywhere else.



Bob
England
Posted 26 June 2002 at 16:30:40 UK time
Glenn I can not answer that question because as yet my roadster has not done any miles, I have only just finished it but what I will say is that I have already got about 1 inch by it just sitting and being jacked up and down for work to be done. Also a few trips down my drive.



John DeWolf
Nova Scotia
Canada
jdewolf@supercity.ns.ca Posted 27 June 2002 at 01:01:08 UK time
I will soon need springs for a restoration project that I have underway. I light of the discussion in this thread I think that this time I will try the rebuilt route. I am told that this particular rebuilder will follow instructions regarding proper arching if you insist. I will report on this.



Peter Jevons
Surrey
United Kingdom
peter.jevons@heery.co.uk Posted 27 June 2002 at 13:58:59 UK time
Art
I had the same problem with my new rear springs and I had great difficulty fitting both the rebound straps and the exhaust system as a result. However I have just completed the car and have driven the first 50 miles with a full fuel tank and a fully fitted up car. All is now well with 1 inch clearance of axle to exhaust and slack in the rebound straps. I had the same situation with a B a couple of years ago such that I had to jack the body down from my garage roof to make them fit. As with the A it settled very quickly and all was well. Best of luck and forget science MG practicality always works!!!
Peter



Art Pearse
Ontario
pearse@ripnet.ca Posted 30 June 2002 at 03:56:26 UK time
Decided on a solution. I have stripped the old springs and taken out the broken top leaves (leafs). I will take the good top leaves from the new springs and reassemble them with the old, after cleanup and new paint. That should at least average down the curvature to where it should be. No hassle with returns or finding another supplier. BTW a mate of mine said B&G had good springs but they cost an arm and a leg and so does the shipping.



Art Pearse
Ontario
pearse@ripnet.ca Posted 03 July 2002 at 03:01:56 UK time
At risk of boring you all on this subject, I have stripped the old springs, cleaned them up in the sandblaster, ground off all the gouge marks where the leaves meet and rounded the sharp ends so it does not happen again, and repainted. Also dismantled new high camber spring. All the high camber is built into the lower 6 leaves, and the top leaf is a good match to the old ones, about 4" camber. So I should be away to the races after clamping them up again, w/o having to deliberately cold deform them.
BTW, is fracture of the top leafs across the centre bolt hole a common mode of failure?




Chuck Schaefer
Posted 06 July 2002 at 18:10:56 UK time
Just to follow up on something I said earlier. I was at a shop yesterday where they do (or used to) re-arch leaf springs. They will not do it on the old springs. After many years, the springs loose their temper. They will not hold the shape. They used to re-temper the springs but it isn't worth the trouble any more. It entails firing up a forge. heating up the leafs in the forge and adding carbon the the steel and quenching, then re-heating and quenching again.

They will however, take a new spring and re-arch it. Maybe this can be an answer to some of the bad springs available these days. Buy a set and have them shaped properly.

Ha also mentioned that in 1980 there were over 240 spring manufacturers in the US. In 1990 there were around 100. Today there are only 8. Springs for Semi-trailers used to run around $98 are now around $35. It must be tough to get into the business.

Just a follow up to my initial input.

Chuck





Art Pearse
Ontario
pearse@ripnet.ca Posted 12 July 2002 at 02:20:48 UK time
At last! The plan worked. 6 old leaves cleaned up and refurbished plus top leaf from new springs. I gained 1" less arch and the shocks now connect and with a bit of a shove, so will the straps.
Anyone need any spare lower leaves, never used?



Bob
England
Posted 12 July 2002 at 12:35:54 UK time
Art do not sell the leaves you may find you will need them in a month or 2.



Art
Ontario
pearse@ripnet.ca Posted 12 July 2002 at 22:30:46 UK time
Bob, I doubt it! a) 6/7 of the springs are 40 years old and have already settled b) I haven't a snowball's chance in hell of finishing the resto in that time!
Art



Fred Horstmeyer

Steve-
Many MGB owners approach the task of replacing the rear leaf springs on their car with trepidation. Actually, it's all very straightforward. Just work steadily and methodically and the work will go quickly. Try to rush the job and it'll take forever.
Lubricate and preinstall the bushings and rear shackle links on the new springs before trying to remove either of the old springs. Make sure that you’ve got the special lubricant on the outside of the tubular stainless steel bushings that go inside the polyurethane bushings. Push them into the bushings. Smear antisieze compound on the mounting bolts and inside the tubular stainless steel bushing so that the mounting bolt will slide in as easily as possible. Slide the mounting bolt through the stainless steel bushings and twist it to be sure that the antisieze compound is smeared evenly inside the stainless steel bushings.
Now, think in terms of safety. Chock the front wheels (always!), jack up and support the rear of the car on axle stands, remove the rear wheels, then adequately support the axle with either a hydraulic bottle jack placed on a hefty block of wood or (better yet) with a floor jack under the differential casing, undo the damper links, and remove the U-bolts from one side of the axle.
Having made those proper preparations, remove the rear bolt first. Hopefully the bushing sleeve on the front bolt won't be rusted to the bolt. If it is, don't bother trying to pound the bolt out because you'll risk deforming the hanger bracket. If you have a big C clamp, you can try pressing it out. If you can, you're lucky. Just cut it off with a hacksaw or, better yet, a dremel tool fitted with a cutting wheel. Cut between the flange and the bushing, on both sides, starting on the nut side so you can hold the bolt head with a pair of vice grips or a wrench so it won't try to spin on you, and toss it in the trash.
Once you get the spring off, examine the hanger brackets and the areas around them. It's not at all unusual to find rust there, especially in the area around the front bracket. Also, take a moment to examine the rear brake hoses. If they're bulged or, even worse, cracked, you really should replace them. Since the wheels are off to grant easy access to everything, pull the brake drums off and look to see if the slave cylinders or axle seals are leaking.
As you're putting it all back together, be sure to use antisieze compound, especially on the steel sleeve that goes on the front mounting bolt. Whatever you do, don't reuse any of the the old bolts, nuts, or U-bolts. Remount the rear end of the spring first (Yeah, I know that the manual says to do the front first, but let's do this the easy way, shall we?). Swivel the shackle links as far forward as they'll go and use the hydraulic jack under the axle to compress the spring so that it will extend forward into the front spring bracket until things align. As the spring extends you'll need to tap the block of wood under the hydraulic jack with a heavy hammer to move the axle forward. An alternative method is to place a hydraulic jack under the spring with the axle unattached and tap the wooden block and jack forward as the spring extends. From the front side of the bracket, slide the tip of a tire iron under the eye of the spring so that you’ll be able to use it as a wedge lever to align the height of the eye of the spring inside the bracket. When the eye of the spring is even with the mounting hole of the bracket, work the tire iron slowly to lower the eye of the spring into alignment with the mounting hole of the bracket.
Test the alignment by pushing in the mounting bolt. If it won’t go through, don’t pound it in with a hammer or you’ll damage the threads. Instead, patiently peer in there with a flashlight and adjust the alignment by compressing or decompressing the spring with the bottle jack (horizontal alignment), or by moving the tire iron (vertical alignment). Sometimes it helps to hold the flashlight against the outside of the bracket on the opposite side so that concentricity can be confirmed. When it’s aligned, install the mounting bolt using hand pressure and spin on the nut. use the floor jack to maneuver the axle so that the U-bolts can be installed. Once all of the U-bolts are in place on both ends of the axle, bolt up the new springs loosely, push the axle over to center, then torque the nuts on the U-bolts to 25-30 ft-lbs. Never tighten the front or rear spring mounting bolts until the car is back on the ground and the rear bounced up and down a few times to settle the suspension!
Drive the car in the driveway in a straight line to make sure that the front wheels are pointing straight ahead and then measure the distance between the front and rear hubs. It's supposed be equal. If it's not, put the rear end up on stands again, loosen the U-clamps, place a wood block against the rear hub that has the longest measurement, and use a big hammer to give the rear axle a shove. It may take a few tries to get the measurements equal. When you've got them equal the rear wheels will be properly aligned, so tighten the nuts on the joints until the rubber pads bulge.
You're going to be almost shocked at the improvement in the ride and handling. That, of course, will give you all the incentive that you'll need to redo the front suspension. Once that's done you'll know what an MGB is supposed to handle like and why so many people came back to the dealership right after their first test drive with a big grin on their faces and stopped their search for the right sports car! S-w-e-e-t!
Steve S.

Steve, will you come do it for me? :)
Steve Simmons

If you can't locate the front, then jack up underneath the spring and *before* the body starts lifting off the stands get the rear shackles located, you have the wrong springs.
Paul Hunt

I figured that you made the common mistake of trying to install the rear leaf springs using the procedure that’s described in the factory service manual. That procedure is in fact a company engineer’s description of how they were installed on the production line at Abingdon. Unfortunately, while the procedure does describe the installation itself, it fails to describe one critical element of preparation for the act of installation: The use of a Leaf Spring Compressor. This is a handy device that looks not unlike an archer’s bow with a large roller bearing mounted on a perpendicular projection on each end. The bearings are placed on top of the leaf spring, then the spring is compressed by screwing in a through-bolt that projects through the center of the bow and bears against the spring with a large rubber pad. As the bolt is tightened against the bottom of the spring, the spring compresses and its ends extend outwards.
The Leaf Spring Compressor used by MG at the Abingdon plant was designed so that when the bolt reached the limit of its inward travel, the eyes of the spring were the right distance apart so that the rear leaf spring could be easily bolted in. The spring would arrive at the assembly line with the spring compressor already installed and tightened, whereupon the workers on the assembly line would attach the forward end to its rigid mount, then swivel the rear shackle forward so that the rear bolt could be easily slid through. Once the bolts were through the eyes of the spring, a pneumatic impact gun was used to loosen the bolt of the compressor. The compressor was then sent back to the spring people.
Of course, if you aren’t one of those rare people lucky enough to actually have a leaf spring compressor, the method that I describe above is the easy way to do it. Trying to the installation by means of the technique described in the factory service manual when you don’t have a leaf spring compressor is a nightmare.
Steve S.

This thread was discussed between 11/11/2002 and 12/11/2002

MG MGB Technical index

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