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MG MGB Technical - Throw out bearing disintegated

I would just like to start by saying that this website is heaven sent, I would appreciate any misc. tips pertaining to pulling the engine, after careful thought I have decided to leave the garbox in place and pull the motor only from my 79B, taking advice from this site I pulled the boot from the clutch lever and looked into the opening with a flashlight. low and behold! peices of carbon everywhere, so while I have the motor out I'm going to hit all the little stuff.
any thoughts on stuff not to overlook?
my thanks to all of you MGenuises.
Jim Kelly, Arizona U.S.A.
J A Kelly

Jim - I think that you will find that it is more work to pull the engine seperate from the transmission is far more work than pulling them both together. A few times of pulling the engine and transmisson, I got to the point where, if I did all the unbolting the night before, I could rent a hoist, pull the engine/transmission remove the transmission, replace a clutch, and put the whole thing back in and return the hoist in less than 4 hours. Got a better price of hte hoist that way. Regardless, you should probably replace the throw out fork pivot bolt and the bushing in the throw out fork while you are doing the job. Good luck - Dave
David DuBois

Don't go there or this thread will soon be a mile long !! Jim has already made up his mind how HE will tackle the job and that must be right for him.

The most obvious things are to replace the complete clutch i.e three piece kit and to use a genuine Borg & Beck clutch. Check carefully for oil seeping from the engine rear main bearing and rectify if necessary. Same goes for the gearbox input shaft seal. Check clutch slave cyl for leaks and either fit new seals or if bore scored replace cyl. Check flexi hose and replace if necessary. Check clutch fork pivot and bushes - renew as necessary.

Make sure that the flywheel face is not scored and regrind if it is. Check starter ring. Have a look at the rear engine core plugs to make sure they are water tight. That's about it as nearly everything else can be dealt with without removing the units.
Iain MacKintosh

Do as little as possible to the engine, engine bay, transmission etc. Keep your eye on the donut--not on the hole. Too many of us, at one time or another, have taken a simple clutch job and turned it into a complete overhaul, by just keeping on going that "one little step further" route.

Wise words from someone who stumbled down that road before.
R. L Carleen

Here here, totally agree.
Iain MacKintosh

Yep...I had a clutch replacement job that turned into a completely naked engine compartment because of the "if I take that off I can clean it up and paint it" syndrome. Ended up with a fresh paint job in the engine compartment and some nice looking ancillaries, but the MGB was out of commision longer than expected.

FWIW

rick
1978 MGB
1969 MGC
1974.5 MGB/GT V8
rick ingram

Jim,

Totally agree with you that only pulling the engine is easiest. I have had an engine stripped from running, removed, clutch changed, and back in and running again in about four hours. And I've only done it a couple of times! However the split seems to be 50/50 about the best way if just working on the clutch or engine.

Anyway, as you have decided to do it that way there are a couple of points worth watching. First is the clutch alignment. The point to remember is the outer clutch pressure plate is irrelevant. What must be aligned is the internal clutch plate (the one with the friction material) and the hole in the centre of the flywheel. If you get on your hands and knees with a torch you can see clearly when this is not aligned. Attach the outer pressure plate loosley with the six bolts, just enough to grip the clutch plate, but so it can still be moved by hand. On your hands and knees and get it so it looks spot on. Make sure you are looking along a level when doing this. Then there shouldn't be a problem.

Next is the position of the clutch lever. Make sure it is as far back as possible. The first time I did this I thought I had misaligned the clutch as I couldn't get the bell housing all the way on. All along it was the clutch lever that was forward so I was having to push against this as well. Also putting the retaining clips for the bearing onto the clutch lever was quite frustrating and gave me sore fingers!

Throughout you need to support under the gearbox with a trolley jack. As you lift the engine jack up the box at the same time (I did a couple of pumps on the crane and then a couple on thae jack. Back and forth) as far as possible until you have seperated the two. On returning the engine you need to have it angled at the same degree as the box. Lowering the box as you are mating the two makes it easier.

When you pull the engine look for leaking seals (back of engine and front of gearbox). If they are dry then don't replace them. There is far more chance a new seal will leak than just leaving a sound one alone.

When the enigne is in and you come to bolt up the bellhousing put all the bolts in before you tighten any up. Probably obvious, but I made the mistake of tightening them as I went the first time and couldn't get the last two in. As a result I had to undo them all again, and one or two are quite difficult to get at.

When I pulled my engine the second time I didn't drop the oil. I simply undid the 8 bolts that held the radiator surround to the body and the four bolts holding the oil cooler, and lifted the radiator, surround and oil cooler at the same time. This saved an un-needed oil change, but did mean I needed a second person to hold these items out of the way when I was lifting and returning the engine. This may not be possible on later models with the oil cooler underneath, but certainly worked on a 70BGT. The cooling system was still drained as it needs disconnected from the heater.

I would echo Iain and RLC to stay focussed on what really needs done, unless you want to end up with a full restoration - just while you have the engine out!

I would allow a whole weekend for the first time, just to be sure. Doing it now (having pulled the engine 3 times in fairly quick succesion for one reason or another) I would clear a day, but hope to have it done in a morning.

Good luck.
Iain
I D Cameron

Engine and tranny out together...I am doing the same job, but also adding an overdrive gearbox....it took me about 1/2 hour to get the box back onto the engine with it out on thye garage floor. I also used a hoist with leveller AND a gearbox dolly. Let me assure you it's a BITCH. I got the clutch alignment spot on...but getting the input shaft into the new flywheel bush was another matter. If the gearbox was in the car I'd still be wrestling with it!
Also it's worth changing the rear transmission mounts whilst it's out...mine were well worn and allow the unit to move more than one would like. If you get the Borg & Beck kit from Brittek...he includes these mounts in the kit...great price too.
P J KELLY

Yes Iain I do remember your problems and the fact that you really did overcome them very well indeed. Four hours is about right and a good time for doing the job. I doubt if this could be significantly bettered.

Couple of points though, firstly I would not advise you to fit a clutch without the use of an alignment mandrel as the chances of the splines being concentric with the pilot bush are then very remote and the engine will never go home on the transmission. Borrow one, get one turned or get an old gearbox first motion shaft so that you can align the disc spot on before you fit the pressure plate.

Talking of the pressure plate it must be concentric with the flywheel and should be located on the dowels provided. If they are missing fit new ones.

Then, so that you can get the gearbox back onto the gearbox unbolt the slave cylinder and that removes any doubt. Your other points are well made.
Iain MacKintosh

and Britteks clutch kit INCLUDES that clutch alignment tool!!!!
P J KELLY

While you've got things apart, you should think
about re-newing the rear main seal, as well as
the transmission front cover gasket and input
shaft seal. These things always seem to decide
to go to lunch a few weeks after you button
everything up and get running again.

The parts don't cost much, and they're fairly easy
to replace ...but only while you've got the engine
& transmission separated.

My 2¢.
Daniel Wong

that main seal ALSO comes with Britteks kit....god...I'm starting to sound like an advert!!!
P J KELLY

I know, I know, things can get carried away with the engine out and Iain and Rick are certainly right: If you're not careful you can wind up with a lengthy restoration (can you hear the but coming?) BUT, if you've ever thought about recoring your heater, now is certainly the time to do it. A bear of a job no matter what but the ability to stand and work inside the engine compartment makes the job a whole lot easier. Back wrenching work with the engine in.

Just for laughs, I've had the same experience as PJ. It took a frustrating hour to match the engine to the gearbox with both out and I'am in awe of those that can do it with the gearbox in the car.

I'd like to attend a tech seminar some day to learn the secrets of "engine out only" as it clearly would be easier! And that sums up this never ending argument--it obviously can be done...by a gifted few.

Paul Hanley

Paul,

Has it occurred to you that maybe it is easier with the box still in? After all, it is then fixed in one position and you can apply a reasonable amount of force to get it pushed all the way home. I can just see either the box or the engine moving if I had both on the garage floor.

Cheers
Iain
I D Cameron

Iain,

Good point. I guess in my book it was "once learnt, twice burnt". The first time I replaced an engine, I had left the gearbox in and after hours and hours of trying to mate the two components, I yanked the gearbox and t'was resolved. So now, I wouldn't do it any other way. When I last attempted my hour long struggle, the engine was on a crane lowered to the floor and very stable. I then attempted to match the gearbox to it. It's like it just bangs and bangs on something as it's obviously hanging up and then, without warning, it slips on like Cinderella's slipper! And of course, I rotated the tail shaft and tried all sorts to align. Very strange indeed.

<<<<you can apply a reasonable amount of force to get it pushed all the way home.>>>>

And maybe you've hit on something else--just how much force is required? I've never forced it home...I've just waited for a smooth, slide together fit. Is that right?

I wonder if it has something to do with, I believe, finer splines on the 3 main first input shaft?? Or perhaps some other peculiararity of the 3 main. Truthfully, if replacing the heater core is a bear of a job, even more so is attaching the crossmember with an overdrive gearbox so leaving the gearbox in place would be of benefit. (Oh no, here comes the directions for attaching the crossmember!!)

Since the snow is now falling and salt trucks are flinging their poison, I'm finally grounded till many rains wash the roads. I'll enjoy these exchanges of knowledge in the meantime. Cheers Iain...perhaps I'll give in to my wife's wishes to visit your grand country and we can do one together!!



Paul

Paul Hanley

you know I lookd in te archives after I posted this question..... so every body put down the heavy tools,
I AM PULLING JUST THE MOTOR!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'veread Lains post going back two years and I'm convinced that both ways have their ups and downs, but I think I'm going wit the gent from Highlands advice,(Sorry about the spelling, had the proverbial 2 whiuskeys, Heh, Heh,)
Now apart from the method of extraction, what else should I look out for!!!!!!!!!!
thanks MGenuises
Jim
jim kelly

Jim,

Not many geniuses here...well a few maybe but certainly not I. Just voices of experience who have fumbled through things a few times. If you're checking out the archives, look for "engine lifting disaster averted". It's case sensitive so look under the small letters. Although started by myself, it gives a great summmary of the methods and dangers of lifting out the engine. Beware, new parts are faulty and of dubious manufacture so some of the old methods may hurt you.

Safety Fast...but not while removing the engine!

Paul Hanley

Thanks paul....
Ihad a transmission from a 280ZX make a credible attempt on my life once, so I won't be taking any over the top risk with my precious MG, after all its the only thing I got in the divorce(she got the BMW...SUCKER!)
I have situated everything in the garage to make this as painless as possible, clean workspace, quality tools, good engine hoist, and a case of guiness to bribe my friends with when I need a hand. This is the only "newer" MG I've worked on, the old MGA was never this confusing under the hood, and three men and a boy could lift the migdet.... so any details on things to watch out for are what I'm now looking for. Thanks to David wa.,R.L., Iain, Rick, Mr. Cameron, P.J., Daniel,and paul.(Forget anyone?) I'm starting to sound like sally fields at the oscars.....
Jim Kelly

Sounds like the Brittek kit is the most comprehensive and just replacing everything that comes in the box will set you straight.

If this car is relatively new to you, then pulling the starter first and checking the condition of the ring gear is a wise investment in time as you can order a new ring-gear to arrive with the clutch kit. They get far less bunged up with the pre-engaged starters but... anyway the process is fairly straightforward and how many opportunities do you have to do sanctioned wailing on your car with a mallet and chisel? You are divorced (sorry) so using the oven to warm up the ring-gear is no problem (lol).

Looking in the bell housing and not seeing oil drips is a pretty good indicator that the seals are fine. Replace them or not, it's up to you. Both shafts are pretty well secured so bunging one is very unlikely (don't use any solvent! that can and will dry out the seal such that a minor rotation of the shaft will cause micro-cracks and an annoying leak in shrt order!!!).

Plan on having the flywheel resurfaced. If it turns out you don't have to, well, all for the better.

Aligning the clutch driven plate with the tranny out of the car is less critical as you have a perfect alignment tool right there (the tranny). Sure it's heavy but getting it "pretty close" with a deep socket and short extension (installed backward) works OK. Aligning it before installation with tranny in car is critical.

Honestly, all the times I tried engine only were a fiasco but you've already decided, so...

Pivot bolt and bush, Ja! certainly!

Don't forget to polish the flywheel spigot and grease before re-installing on crank.

New lock-tabs if you use them and blue lock-tite for flywheel and clutch cover bolts (OK, no lock tabs on the cover bolts).

Clean and re-lube the spigot bush for the tranny input shaft. I've never had to replace one but I'm sure they wear so you may want one ahead of time "just in case." Wonder if they fetch a nice price on e-bay?

I also replace the bell-housing to block bolts as they always seem to be mis-matched (half of the improper grade or length). I like overkill on this and get grade-8 with new flat washers and nylocks where appropriate. Spring-washers otherwise.

Scrutiny of the slave cylinder when you dis-connect it is wise at this point too. Be a shame to have it fail once all was buttoned up.

Mike!
mike!

Thanks mike!,
good info wich will help with my checklist!

Surgery is on this coming saturday, so I will post occasionally during the proccess so yu can all get a few laugh's
J A Kelly

Jim, sometimes the more you think about a job the more difficult it becomes and the message is just to get on and do it I think however that you've worked it all out anyway.

We Brits have been used to changing clutches and for many years in the 60s to 80s all we had to do was pull the transmission change the clutch and put it back again. 40 minutes was a good time !! Then sometimes, like the B the engine had to be pulled and that was a pain and then sometimes like certain Jags the engine and transmission had to be pulled and removed downwards after removing the front suspension !!

Across the pond you've been pulling these great muckle V8s with autoboxes as a unit and see the puny MG and transmission as a toy. You've got the right idea - make it easier still by removong the engine.

Make sure that the clutch disc will slide easily on to the gearbox shaft before you fit it to the flywheel. Quite frankly if the grarbox front seal and engine rear bearing are dry then I'd leave it as the new seals could leak!!

When you refit the engine it is ESSENTIAL that the engine backplate and face of the bellhousing are parallel otherwise the shaft spigot will not enter the spigot bush. A socket on the crank nut will enable you turn the engine to engage the splines but make sure that the car is in gear to lock the input shaft. Force causes damage and should NEVER be used as you could easily damage the spigot bush. If the faces are parallel the motor will slide easily into place if not, adjust the jack slightly to get perfect alignment. Just one final point, the nose of the gearbox input shaft has rather a blunt end so take an angle grinder and put a chamfer of about 1/16" at 45 degrees on the nose, it makes all the difference.

Good luck

Iain
Iain MacKintosh

Jim,
If you can, coerce somoene into helping when you put the engine back in. I've done it alone, but the addition of an extra pair of eyes to watch the alignment of shaft/backplate/bellhousing and pair of hands that responded well to "left a bit, right a bit" got things together in a few minutes instead of an hour. We had to bring forward the tea break.
Steve Postins

Yes, like a reasonably co-operative son wouldn't go amiss and can be handy on the jack handle. Forgot about that !!!
Iain MacKintosh

Many years ago - 1973- I did a quick rebuild on my girlfriends MGB for a B engine that had overheated. Rings and bottom end bearings and new seals.
I put it all back together and the transmission leaked badly. Pulled it apart and found that the overheating had turned the transmission front seal into brittle rubber that had apparently cracked from the movement of the input shaft being inserted into the pilot bearing.

I now no longer assume the seal is good just because there is no evidence of leakage. The modern seals are of much better materials than the original product. It's much easier to do it right the first time than twice.

Barry

Barry Parkinson

Hard to believe that the engine overheated to the extent that there was significant heat transfer as far back as the gearbox. That being the case I would have probably scrapped the engine that overheated and rebuilt the original. I think the seal was probably knackered due to age. I agree that it is usually better to replace the seals but with the rear main bearing I am firmly of the belief that for the average person if it is OK then leave it. That area is fraught with possible difficulties i.e bearing cap leaks, backplate gasket, cork seals and sump pan. It's difficult to diagnose therefore where the leak is. If it's dry Jim don't tempt fate.
Iain MacKintosh

Well gentlemen, I relate the following in the hope it will benefit my fellow enthusiast, as some of you already know, first major hang up with my project. was that the cutch plate that was first purchased in a B&B kit was incorrect (Turned out it was for a TR-7)NOTE! cover was correct, throw out was correct, pressure plate was not!!! so we had to take another little drive to Tucson(55 miles one way) from our little golf resort home, IF YOU LIVE 55 MILES FROM YOUR PARTS DEALER (and dont use mail order) TAKE THE CLUTCH TOOL WITH YOU AND CHECK THE SPLINES!!!!! An old habit of mine that I've done so long I don't even think about it anymore is to label all wires with masking tape i.e. Dist. ground, or Overdrive.
the hoist I rented was a gem during the out process but after sitting 2 days ( parts store closed on sunday ) suddenly wouldnt lift to return the motor to its original place, had to have the man from the rental place out, yes I could have put more hydro or oil in it myself but I didnt want to end up buying it.
First timers hear this!!!! its not that hard, matter of fact it is easy, and despite the litle irratations it was even fun. Buy a good supply of hand cleaner and some brushes then get dirty, with the help of this BBS you'll get through!
Sincere thanks to all who helped me(and probably others) via this thread!!

James A. Kelly
Jim kelly

JIm, you haven't really complained about any part of the job being particulary difficult. How bad did you find it to get the engine back on to the gearbox and would you take the transmission out as well next time ?
Iain MacKintosh

Iain,
Initially before discovering the clutch issue (wrong part), I had only the motor out, then pulled the tranny as well when I couldnt get them to mate, now keep in mind I've done several clutch jobs in my lifetime, afte getting the proper sare parts everything went great, and given the special circumstance, I am still firmly in the engine only camp...the most difficult part of the re-assembly was the mucking around with the tranny coss member.......
with out all of the minor problems I encountered I would say I could have had the whole thing done in three hours.....ENGINE ONLY.....
look forward to hearing from you again
JIM
JIm kelly

Ah, that figures and that crossmember is a pain. When I built both my Bs my solution was to fit the crossmember to the gearbox on the bench and then fit the transmission on its own. Then I dropped the car down and fitted the engine.

As we had said in the thread, Make sure that the clutch disc fits the splines before fitting it to the flywheel. What a pity.

Cheers
Iain
Iain MacKintosh

This thread was discussed between 19/01/2005 and 26/01/2005

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