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MG MGB Technical - Truing Wire Wheels

Would someone tell me how you true wire wheels, and tighten the spokes? I would think you do both at the same time. Is that correct? Do you need special tools or machines to do it? Can a novice learn to do it? In having a knowledgeable MG mechanic attempt to mount four tires on my wires that sat on the car for over 15 years, I have found that all are out of true, with loose spokes. Now what do I do? Any and all help will be appreciated. Thanks.
Curt

Curt. There used to be a website, the "Scions of Lucas" which had one, or more, articles on how to true wire wheels. If you have loose spokes, you have an accident waiting to happen. You might check to see if the website is still active and contains the article. If not, a Google search on "Truing Wire Wheels" may be of help. I replaced all of my wire wheel with disc type wheels do the the numerous problems I have had with wire wheels over the years. If you have to replace the existing wire wheels and hubs, this becomes a very viable option. Les
Les Bengtson

Curt,

I'm dealing with the same issue and the consensus seems to be that it is such a hassle, that you are better off purchasing new ones rather than trying to refurbish your old ones. However, here's a link to help out on truing them on your own. I've been told to have a couple of extra spokes handy as you are likely to break a few if you have an older wheel.

http://www.team.net/sol/tech/truwire.html

Good luck.
Jeremy Lawrence

Curt, if the wheels have been sitting for 15 yrs, I would bet that in addition to the loose spokes and out of true, there's some rust in the spokes/nipples. On threads that size, whether they be in a machine screw or wheel spoke, if you can get them to turn without breaking them, they probably won't hold as well as if they were in good, uncorroded (is that a word?) condition. I've trued up wheels successfully for my car (and then replaced them with new due to the performance increases showing the hub spline wear to be too much for my improvements), but it took a while to do. If I were charging someone to do the job, they would have been better off buying new.

As far as tools go, you would need to mount the wheel to the rear axle so you dont measure any play from the front swivels, steering, etc., securely mount a dial indicator so you can measure lateral and radial runout of the wheel. A magnetic base on a real big hunk of steel like cylinder head, bench vise, etc. works well. A problem is the wrench; you know how a good wrench is needed to really grip a stuck or really tight fastener? Same with WW spokes and I haven't found such a wrench. You would probably be replacing quite a few spokes and nipples due to rounded nipples and rusty spoke threads, which is probablt just as well anyway. REal horror story, huh. But if you do do it, and do it so the job is right and lasts, then you'll have successfully done a job that many would probably say you could'nt have or shouldn't have done.
Wade Keene

I had 3 done by a professional here in the UK about 15 years ago.it was a less than new ones , and saves the planet a bit. When they came back one was usable , the rest were a disaster one had more rise and fall(rim not concentric with hub) than it went in with. I bought new ones.
S Best

I used to build and true bicycle wheels many years ago and one of the first things to do was to ensure that you screwed every nipple the same number of turns on to the spoke. After that the truing was relatively straightforward. However the rim could very easily loose concentricity with the hub and in a car wheel this would be a disaster. What with rusty spokes and nipples (the wheels that is)I feel too that it would be much better to replace or alternatively fit steel wheels instead.
Iain MacKintosh

Curt,
Loose spokes will be obvious but be careful about how you - or someone else - assesses true running. I've taken wires for tyres and balancing to various tyre places and the first thing many of them say is "they're out of true". This is due to them using a machine which clamps to the back flange of the hub (which is pressed steel and can be well out of flat) instead of centring it on the tapers and splines. Very few places can do wires off the car. If you check or do your own (truing and balancing) use an old hub fitted with free bearings supported by a couple of axle stands, motorcycle-style.
Rich
R Maile

While its true that it would be wiser to just purchase new WWs if they're old and untrue (and I am a firm beleiver in this), even new WWs come with a tag saying that they will need to be trued after a couple of hundred miles of wear. FWIW I haven't been able to find anyone, motorcyle shop or not, that will true or balance my WWs correctly. I have enough trouble finding a shop that will just sell me and install new tires AND TUBES in my WWs.

Luigi
Luigi

Most likely the spoke threads have rusted tight and cannot be loosened. In that case rebuilding with new spokes is the best way to go (remove the old spokes with bolt cutters).
If you buy new wheels you can get a tubeless seal and avoid those nasty innertubes.
For rebuilding and/or new wheels check: http://www.daytonwirewheel.com
They'll give you a 1 year warranty on the rebuild and 3 years on the new.

Rich
Richard Cutright

Curt

Search the archives for multiple threads on wire wheels. There are many comments on the need for truing, etc, for new wheels or after a few thousand miles, poor reliability, etc. However, if you read enough you will find, in my opinion, that the new Dayton wires apparently have the strength and durability to stand up very well, and even come in tubless configuration. Look around at some of the newer "customized" 'merican iron running around our streets and you will find a significant number of wires in use.

Just my opinion.

Larry
58 A (disc wheels)
69 C in restoration (wire wheels)(I plan on using new Daytons)
Larry Hallanger

I have had the Dunlop India chrome wires for about 14 years and 40k miles and have not found the need to have them retrued. After 8 to 10 years with no breakages either I now find I get one or two a year. I take them to a one-man band motor-cycle wheel rebuilder in darkest Smethwick in the West Midlands and he replaces them while I wait and checks for trueness. Only the last wheel has had a problem, and that was a wobble in the hub although the rim was true, which may well always have been there and that occasion being its first spoke replacement. However taking them to a tyre replacement place with a computer balancer is a different kettle of fish. They often show me a huge wobble in the wheel that vanishes as soon as it gets back on the axle, but this is because they do not have the correct cones for mounting a wire wheel - they need an inner cone on the inner face of the hub and an outer cone on the outer, but they only have two inner cones hence the wheels are not being held correctly.
Paul Hunt

Whenever I read information about WW's (truing, splines, hubs, etc...) I get very discouraged. I have owned several B's over the years, all had rostyle wheels. Yet I always loved the look of the WW cars, so I bought one to restore. It is a '72. I have all the mechanicals in good shape, except for the WW's.

I guess the only way I am going to feel ok about them is to buy brand new wheels and hubs. I have bought some used hubs and wheels off ebay. But, I never feel sure that the splines are really ok.

I have read the archives, and that also seems discouraging.

What advice would some of you long time wire wheel owners give me?

Thanks,
John in Music City







John Lifsey

John:

If what I've been hearing lately is true, it seems you re~~~y can't go wrong by getting a set of Daytons, tubeless perhaps. Get new splines at the same time and grease them correctly. Your car should be fine with yearly maintenance for many, many, many years.

If I hadn't had purchased new wheels a couple of years ago, I would have waited and bought the Daytons. Sure makes life alot easier if its tubeless.

Some extra advice would be to get the 72 spokers as they seem to be alot more durable. If chrome is a must, get stainless spokes as they are less likely to become brittle as the steel ones from the chroming process.

Anyone else with advice?

Luigi
Luigi

HI got my wire wheels back from painting, took them to tyre shop for balance, can not be done, they have no proper tools to tight the wheel to spindle.The hubs I.d. is not concentric to O.d. therefore the conic nut they have its useless.
Any ideas how to balance them? I suppose the best is in the car spinle, run a clock and choose the best to front, and worse ones for the back....
Alfredo
alfredo

Alfredo, that's right, see my first post, very few places can balance wires now. Only place I found on a ring around was 100 miles away and wanted £10 each, yes £50 the set.

So this now depends on how determined you are. Me, I've had this problem on and off for 30 years and thought it was time to sort it now the few old timers who could do it have gone.

I got an old rear spline hub from a breaker. Turned a piece of bar to fit through it tightly on the splines. Drilled that in the lathe and put an axle through. Axle then goes into a small sealed ball bearing on each end and each rests on an axle stand. Wheel slides onto hub and is balanced statically with stick-ons in centre behind spokes. This method is easily sensitive to 5g weights.

Mine are round and true within 1/8" - I checked first on the car - and had been done on a modern machine by the previous owner but they shook like mad at 70 mph. To start I took off all the weights - over 100g from 4 of the wheels - one had 145g - about 500g of lead sitting there LOL! I ended up with all balanced with less than 50g each and 3 of them only needed 35g. No shake at any speed, absolute success I can re-do anytime. Rich.
R Maile

Rich,
To complicated, not easy to get a old splined shaft here in Portugal, and need a lathe...i will see how it bad it feels when driving the car.
thanks

Alfredo
alfredo

Alfredo, what I think Rich is refering to is the old way motorcycle tires are balanced. You need a common shaft to run through the spline and bearings to rotate them on. Although crude your front spline with the brake disconnected might work. You rotate the wheel by hand and let it come to a natural stop and mark that point on the wheel at the very bottom. You simply rotate it again and let it stop and see if that same point comes to rest at the bottom. If it does it indicates that that is the heavy point on the wheel and you start by applying weight to the direct opposite side of your mark and re-spin a few times noting where the wheel comes to rest. You goal is to get the wheel to stop at a different place every time indicating proper "balance" Although crude it does work. Motorcycles are easy because they have integral bearings. All you need is an axle bolt and two saw horses. Also look -up on the net a bubble balancer. While also not as good as spin they do provide balance and are inexpensive(think J.C. Whitney used to sell one) Most small aircraft wheels are bubble balanced.
J.T. White

Here's two links for bubble balancers (notice same product but major price flux)

http://www.menintools.com/shop/bubble.html

http://www.tooldesk.com/products/productDetail.aspx+id+493
J.T. White

one more..

http://www.jcwhitney.com/autoparts/ProductDisplay/s-10101/p-453/c-10101
J.T. White

I replaced my wire wheels at 300,000 miles. They were still true and balanced, and the splines were good. I only replaced them because I wanted a 15", 72-spoke wheel. I didn't have to replace the hubs because they are in perfect condition! With proper care, wire wheels will last a very long time. Starting with a brand new set of splines and wheels should guarantee a lifetime of use. On a more powerful car this might not be the case but an MG is not likely to damage a splined hub from sher power! :)
Steve Simmons

J T W explains the method well! Making a good static balancer only costs a couple of pieces of scrap, 2 ball bearings and a little time, and is used by some very fast machinery.

This is the problem,

http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/wheels/wl110.htm

This is the solution, in our case we make a true centre for a wire wheel to spin on using an old spline hub,

http://home.insightbb.com/~mmartin36/Balance.htm

To work, a bubble balancer relies on the wheel being located exactly perpendicular to it's (bubble) axis, which it cannot do with a pressed steel hub. So it is no good; it suffers the same problem as the dynamic machines which locate on the rear face of the wheel.

Rich
R Maile

Rich, just curious here. Don't the splines of the WW need to rest on a cone to be properly spin balanced and since the bubble balancer uses a "cone" to set the wheel center on I feel this would work fine as the "back" surface of the hub is not resting on the balancer surface just the inside surface of the splined hole.
J.T. White

The biggest problem with getting wire wheels dynamically balanced is that it is difficult to find a tire shop that has suitable adaptors especially for the outer taper. I teach in the Automotive Service Technician program at a community college and have access to a lmachine shop. The machining instructor made up a set in about an hour. The good thing is that most of the wheel balancers regardless of brand are of Italian manufacture and have 40mm shafts. Thus local club members can borrow my adaptors and get their wheels balanced at the tire shop of their choice, or if they are really polite I will get one of my students to balance them. An hours machining is worth about $55 here so it is not much of an investment. Incidently the steel was scrap offcuts from another project. Because of the limited use there is no point in having them hardened, just be gentle with them.

Dennis
D. J. Broad

<<Don't the splines of the WW need to rest on a cone to be properly spin balanced and since the bubble balancer uses a "cone" to set the wheel center on I feel this would work fine as the "back" surface of the hub is not resting on the balancer surface just the inside surface of the splined hole.>>

At first sight it looks OK doesn't it. But look at how the wheel is actually held. The wheel drops till its taper meets the balancer cone. The cone of the balancer then centres the wheel at the point it meets but the wheel is leveled/steadied by the sprung loaded platform which is in contact with the back of the pressed hub. Thus, if the hub back plate is not square to the wheel's axis it will sit on the balancer at an angle - just as it does on a dynamic machine which clamps to the backplate. It is the pressed hub's back plate which is the problem, it is not designed to have anything registered against it, is made of pressed steel and can be any shape.

Rich
R Maile

I see what you mean Rich. I'm going to go with the same method I discribed above. I've used it with my Triumph (MC) and it's served me well for years. Discount tire just attempted to balance my midgets new tires with my WW with "fair" results. The slight "shimmy" I get between 40 to 50mph will cause damage in the long run. Funny, they had NO weights on them when I took them in and they ran beautifully.

Curt, sorry for the highjack from your original "truing" question.
J. T. White

I left my chrome wires unbalanced when I first installed them (new wheels, old tyres) as I didn't want weights on them, and had no problems with imbalance. Subsequently had new tyres on one pair, but didn't notice straight away they they had balanced them and put weights on the inside rims as indicated by the comper balancing machine, even though they didn't have the proper cones to hold the wheels. Still no imbalance problems. Subsequently replaced the other two tyres and they said they couldn't balance them as they were badly warped, which just proved to be how they were being held on the machine. So no balacing, no weights, and still no imbalance problems. This compares with repeated imbalance problems on my V8 wheels which were mounted using an adapter in the stud holes.

As far as John Lifsey's question goes I would say that unless you know the history of both wheels and hubs buy new. Old hubs will knacker new wheels and vice-versa, and if either or both are badly worn the rears could strip undser acceleration and the fronts under braking ... which is far more serious.
Paul Hunt

This thread was discussed between 04/02/2005 and 12/02/2005

MG MGB Technical index

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