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MG MGB Technical - Why can't anyone make a decent spring?

Just finished installing my new leaf springs among many other projects over the past few months. I finally got the car out of the garage for a test drive and the first thing I noticed is that the car looks like I put a lift kit on the back. To add insult to injury, the right side is noticably higher than the left. These are UK-made springs from Moss with SuperFlex bushings. I'm pretty annoyed about this after so much work. I don't expect the springs to settle since the car has been on it's own weight with the new springs for the past 3 months. Can't believe I never noticed the leaning to the left before now. I doubt Moss will take these springs back after so long but I'm willing to eat the cost if I can find a proper set. Is there such a thing?
Steve Simmons

I initially had this problem with new UK-made
rear springs also. However, after several months
the springs seemed to settle and the height of
the car in back now seems right.

You might call the Moss tech support line and see
what they suggest. Moss usually takes things
back without questions, but I'm not sure the
springs are at fault here.
Ronald

Have the same problem with my rebuild........asked a lot of people who know a lot more than I and they all say it's very common, and it will settle down. Right now I've got 300 pounds of sand bags in the trunk and she sits just about right, hopefully she'll stay that way after a while!
Eric Welty

I don't WANT to put 300 pounds of sandbags in my trunk!!! It just seems absurd that we're putting up with this. We aren't talking about door handles, these are crucial suspension parts for crying out loud! Surely someone who orders these things at the distributers realizes these springs are all terribly inacurate? It's beyond silly to expect us to drive around with sandbags in our cars to make crappy parts work properly. Also, besides slowing the car down it will kill balanced handling. *sigh* :(
Steve Simmons

I recently helped a buddy swap the springs on his midget, and they took about a week (and about 400 miles) to settle down, with no added load in the rear. They're now the normal height.

Springs came from Leacy MG (+44 (0) 121 356 3003) who are happy to do international mail order. No, I don't work for them.

We have a set from the same people waiting to go onto our roadster, and I'll let you know how well they work when they're on. They look about right though.

Hope this helps,
--
Olly S
Oliver Stephenson

Steve, You may want to look at a thread in MGB General originated by Bob Muenchausen titled, "An Interesting conference". You can send you comments about crappy parts to Mr. Twist and Mr. Heideman. I have already sent them messages but did not mention springs because I bought some springs from Moss about four years ago and they were ok. Based on the number of inputs on springs I guess I was lucky to get a good set. I have to agree you shouldn't need to run around with bags of sand to make them settle. I would think if a few weeks of use will settle them, a few months of will cause them to settle even more. A good spring is supposed to retain it's length or arch without settling. After all when you buy a new car it doesn't sit three inches high because the springs need to settle after driving a few weeks. I realize I haven't helped, but a flood of notes to Mr. Twist and Mr. Heideman made get some help down the road.
Clifton Gordon

Clifton is right on! If you have a beef like this, send it on to John Twist or Carl Heideman. Tho these two gentlemen run professional shops, they too must put up with things like this and probably don't enjoy having to tell owners "it will eventually settle out" any more than you enjoy looking at your MGB looking like some high school kid's hot rod. If these parts really are "crappy", then we need to be hammering those who care with our concerns.

For my part, I don't think the factory delivered cars whose spring heights when new were too high. I don't think they had all those completed MGBs we see in the old factory photos sitting out on the paddock outside the plant with 300 lbs. of sand in each waiting for the springs to settle. ;-)
Bob Muenchausen

The composite springs are great but, they won't stop the car from sitting lower on one side. That is a problem that must be addressed separately.
Dana

Steve,
I went through a similiar ordeal recently with the springs Vicky Brit sells. Theirs are Taiwanese (not the same I know!), but I eventually got a swap for their rally springs, advertised as 1 inch lower. My B now sits exactly as it should.
This problem may or may not be related.
Dave
David Steverson

A few years ago (1993) my GT was sagging in the rear so I took it to a spring shop and had them re-arched. They've been OK for about ten years.
Charles Edwards

12 years ago I sold a real nice 72 B that I put a set of 4 new springs under this car & it left sitting higher than a rubber bumper car, I called moss & said what up (other than this car) with the springs? & thay said thay would drop down in a short time. I did the service work on the car for the next 5 years & 15,000 miles, thin I bought the car back & called moss & said that the springs were GONE, that there was no springs under the car, it was sitting SO LOW that there were no springs under this car! ALL moss said that the springs were over 2 years old & there were ALL MINE. I stopped selling springs, at the car shows 10 years ago for I saw this happen to car that were getting spring job. I have gone to the composite springs. Another thing that I have done with me pulling a 3,000 lbs. trailer on & off, I put a set of V.W. bus air shocks in the back of my 74 G.T. & when I have a load on the back end, I pump it up were it sits like it should. I am going to air shock all of my M.G. ( 9 at this time ) & tell moss with there junk springs to go. I use a air hose to pump up each side, were if the driver side is sitting lower than the pass. side, I put more pressure in the drivers side.
















































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































Glenn Towery

Boy, that was a lot of empty space!
Steve Simmons

http://mgbmga.com/

Composite springs. Wonderful. Light weight and did I say Wonderful yet?
-BMC.
BMC Brian McCullough

I've heard many negative reviews of them. That makes me very weary. I like to drive pretty hard sometimes.
Steve Simmons

Steve
I had a similar problem after fitting new rear springs, when I came to fit the axle check strap it was about 2 inches (50mm) short of the pin. With two people sitting on the boot, I just about managed to fit it but the car was still sitting very high. This lasted about 800 miles at which point the car had settled down to the correct level.
One important point to note is that the rear shackles should be hanging to the rear of verticle (ie the lower shackle pin should be rearwards of the upper pin, not forwards of it. Hence when the weight of the car is trying to flatten the spring, the lower pin can move easily rearwards. If the lower pin is forward it can prevent easy movement of the shackle towards the rear.
Another point is to only fully tighten all bolts when the car is at its normal ride height, (ie losen all bolts, weight the car down then tighten bolts in that position.
Hope this may help a little
Good luck
Graham
Graham

Based on the posts in this thread it appears that getting UK made springs is no guarantee they will be good. As I said in my early post springs should not need to settle, maybe 1/2" on leaf springs, no more. As Glenn noted they will continue to settle until they are useless.

About 20 years ago I took some Camaro leaf springs to a spring shop that does lots of heavy truck springs. My son was racing in stock class and I wanted the springs lowered. The shop disassembled them and did the arching with a big hammer and an anvil. The springs were still about the same. My suggestion on using a spring shop would be to ask lots of questions, or better yet leave the car with them and tell them where you want the ride height.

One last story, my first car was a 40 Pontiac I bought in Tokyo in 1950. It was sitting about 6" high on one side, the PO had a spring made locally. I took both springs apart and interchanged the leaves around and got the car even but it was still about 3" high. I went on a trip to Nikko with three friends and our duffel bags and the springs settled to a point below the normal ride height never to return. This is one example of what happens with poor quality springs.

Where do you get good springs? I'm not sure.

FWIW, Clifton
Clifton Gordon

If you can't get decent springs from our regular sources, how about asking around among your car buddies locally for a good and CONSISTENT spring shop to repair or build your springs? Rodders, SCCA folks, gearheads are most likely to have a clue, and if it were me, I would look for a pattern of consistent satisfaction with the work. Ask enough people, and eventually a name will stand out. Just a thought.
Bob Muenchausen

I agree with Graham and only tighten when on the ground properly. A little dish washing liquid helps when assembling rubber bushings.
I also soaked my springs in vegetable based oil before re assembly. A good oil to use is caster oil as it bonds with the metal surface molecules so helps lubricate and keep moisture out so no rust.

Seems to work down under . . . . henry.
Henry

I can confirm that rear springs take a while to settle in and some "nose down" is bound to be apparent initially. Funnily enough, I've found that the (just fitted) Moss ones seem to exhibit this behaviour rather less than some others that it's been my misfortune to use in the past. Maybe it'll go "nose up" more quickly with these. Time will tell.
Is it possible that your fronts are getting a little "tired" producing exaggerated "tail up"?
The daftest rear spring issue I ever saw was my Dad replacing one (and only one) rear spring on his MkII Midget, despite repeated protests (cheapskate). He couldn't get a gen-u-wine MkII spring (discontinued) but was assured that the later springs fitted. A few weeks after he fitted this I was round at his place and he said that he thought that "something wasn't right". I volunteered to take the car out and investigate. 5 minutes later, I'm back, ashen-faced and with soiled underwear. The later springs do fit, the swinging shackle takes up the extra inch :-0 The "torque-steer" effects had to be felt to be believed....
Tim Cuthill

Composites seem to me to be the way to go. It's not a hard job to change springs, but it's a grubby, thankless task and I don't care to do it more than absolutely necessary. I have a lot of mileage on mine, and they are still dead-on height-wise. My car sagged to the left and when I put the composites on it squared right up ... guess my LHS steel leaf was shot. They are a bit softer than the steel springs though. They give a ride height that's just a tad lower -- maybe half an inch -- than CB stock. And because they're thinner, there's room to install Doug Jackson's TRICK anti-tramp bar setup ... absolutely the best available, IMHO.
Ted

"how about asking around among your car buddies"

I have no car buddies! That's been my toughest battle over the past 15 years.

"Is it possible that your fronts are getting a little "tired" producing exaggerated "tail up"?"

Possibly, yes. They are original as far as I know. But if that's the case, then I want to keep the car at that height because it looks perfect! :)
Steve Simmons

To Glenn Towery: count me as one of your lucky customers! Bought rear springs just about 12 yrs ago from you - you gave me GT springs for my roadster, saying they'd take a little extra weight.

Still have them in - no problems, car sits fine!
Phil Collura

Steve (Simmons),

Last year I replaced my rear springs with a set source from Moss via a third party, because a leaf in the original springs broke. The new ones claimed to be made in the UK. When I installed them, they raised the rear of the car quite a bit -- rather more than I like, actually. But, like you, I thought that perhaps the 30-year-old front springs had settled and that would explain the "down by the bow" attitidue the car now displayed. I got a set of front springs from the same source and installed them. They made absolutely no difference in the front ride height.

As it's been far too long to try and return them, I plan to let a local truck shop re-arch them this summer. Wish me luck!

Rob
Rob Edwards

Evenin' All,

The MGOC has just introduced a new twin leaf rear parabolic spring. They are very new, so there is no info on their site other than this reference I've found: http://www.mgcars.org.uk/cgi-bin/gen5?runprog=mgocbbs&mode=thread&access=&subject=5004&source=T&thread=2003021113193826032

They cost about 200, but I think they might be worth the money, because I too think it's just about impossible to get decent springs.

I fitted new ones just a couple of years ago, and they're now starting to sag.

You could try e-mailing the MGOC via the 'Clubs' link on this site

Mike
Michael Watkins

There may not be much info on the club site, but there was a wealth of it in the recent mag when these were introduced. Basically, the road test seemed to indicate that the ride improvement was phenomenal, all the advantages of composites with less of the exaggerated "softness" that has been complained about here in the past (not to mention less of the exaggerated cost).
Also they come with a pack of spacers to compensate for the thinner spring as opposed to the standard leaf arrangement. The advantage here is that these can be placed below or above the spring and asymmetrically (e.g. more above than below on one side, less on the other) to adjust ride height and / or any bias as the car sits. I'd have been tempted if I hadn't fitted a new set of leaf springs the previous month......
Tim Cuthill

Steve,
just more food for thought on the composite springs from British Automotive:

Ask a general question of how people like them on the MGB-GT V8 conversion board that have actually used them.
Those cars are under more of a load then most of the 1.8L motors ever will produce with around the same overall automobile weight.

-BMC.
BMC Brian McCullough

Maybe the crap UK springs have come from the US. I've bought two sets (in the UK) in the past and they have been of the correct height immediately, but then I specifically selected OE types and not repros.
Paul Hunt

Paul,

Our problem here is getting the truth from our suppliers. While most make an honest effort to reveal their sources, others either don't really know, or don't care.

One thing for sure, whomever is producing these springs don't have the original specification for the springs. I've seen at least two sets that make the cars look like they're being prepped for off-road work, very sad to see!

Regards,

L.C. '74 B/GT
Larry C.

Well Moss Motors isn't one of those who don't care. Craig Cody of Moss noticed this thread and emailed me last week offering a full refund at any point in time and has forwarded information of my problem to his tech guys. Their customer care cannot be beat imho. In 15 years they have only done me wrong once, and I believe that was the individual front-counter salesman.
Steve Simmons

Steve,

Wow! Craig's a good guy, and it reflects well on Moss that he'll do that for you. I wish now I had bought my springs directly from them! ;-)
Rob Edwards

Now all's we need is for Moss to sell good stuff up front and be honest about the parts' source, etc. BEFORE you buy!

I used to run restaurants and upper management used to talk about about how fixing things for a customer when they've received the wrong meal, cooked to wrong temp, whatever, was an opportunity to show them how well we can do at making things right for them. Those idiots never seemed to remember that this "opportunity" only occured after something got screwed up in the first place!
Wade Keene

Greetings: I just installed new rear springs on my 67 roadster which is being restored as a driver. I consider the installation unsuccessful. The rear end was way too high after installation as many of you have mentioned earlier. The springs have way too much "arch". The right rear would not even allow the shackel to rotate because it was forced up against the bottom of the car body due to this "arch" problem which in effect shortens the spring. I removed the rearend from the car and again tried to just mount the springs and noted the same problems. I will call the dealer tomorrow and try to return these supposedly OE springs. I may go composite or put my old ones back on. What a A hassle.
Moe

Moe, Did your springs have a made in UK label on them? Just curious. Good luck. Clifton
Clifton Gordon

Moe, You mat want to give this company a call, I believe they make composite springs. Clifton
Flex-A-Form
2060-T Frontage Rd.
Anderson, SC 29621
USA Tel: 864-261-7006
Fax: 864-261-7102
Company Description
Mfr. Of Leaf Springs.





Clifton Gordon

Clifton,

I don't see any UK marking on them. I ask the dealer if they were UK or "Other" before I purchased them. They said they were UK ! I'll check with them again tomorrow when I call them about the return and let you know.

Thanks for the flex-a-form info. I'll check in with them also. Have you delt with them and do you use their springs?

Moe
Moe

Moe, I haven't had any dealings with them. I don't know if they make springs that will fit an MG. If they are near you it may be a good idea to talk to them.
I still have steel springs on my cars. I replaced them on the 74 around four years ago and they were at the correct height but they are now about 1/2" low. I have driven it 10-12k so I wouldn't consider that to be good service. Good luck, Clifton


Clifton Gordon

My '74 B sags a little in the back. I'd like to replace the springs, but have held off. I've been waiting several years, hearing the same story about replacement roadster springs being too tall.

I've thought about having springs made at a shop near me. But does anyone know the specs of a correct spring? I've never done this, but there must be something about length, arc and spring rate that the shop needs to know.

Any help out there?
Matt Kulka

Greetings: I called my spring supplier earlier today and expressed the concern I have with the springs I just purchased for my 67. He was very helpful and agreed to refund my money or send me different springs with no time limit on when. He also suggested that I wait till my resto is complete and try the same springs again for a couple hundred miles to see if they don't settle into place. If they are not what I want at that time he will take them back.

According to him these are UK springs and it is not uncommon for them to be "tall" and difficult to mount initially, but after they settle they are fine. He says this not an uncommon problem and he has delt with it quite often . Bottom line: I've decided to give these springs another try instead of mailing springs back and forth. After our long discussion, I believe he knows his business and has experience building cars, so, I'll take the suppliers experience and take his word he will make it right if I am still not happy at a later date !!!! Time will tell.

Moe
Moe

I've changed springs twice using OE types and they only settled about 1/4" If they look too high to begin with they are probably going to stay that way. There may well be a difference between 'UK' and 'OE', we get crap parts here too. OE should have the plastic interleaving and the original part number stencilled in white, but I have seen stencilled springs *without* interleaving which the vendor admitted were copies (and hence illegal in the UK) so I wouldn't put it past someone to stencil and have interleaving.
Paul Hunt

Paul, I just got a pair of leaf springs from Moss that have the white stencilled part number but no plastic interleaving. Maybe Moss thinks if they're illegal in the UK they can sell them here as OE and legal? Anyway, I haven't been able to put them on yet because I'm still trying to get those front eyehole bolts to come out. Is there any way, short of a plasma cutter, to get those bolts out??
Ken T
Ken Thompson

Ken,

You post makes me want to go look at my springs. Mine had the white stencilling, but I don't know about the interleaving.

As for the bolts, I cut mine off with a Sawzall. Just be careful not to damage the brackets on the body.
Rob Edwards

I used a sawsall also. Cut the bolt off inside the outside bracket, then you can hopefully drive the rest of the bolt out with a punch. If not, cut off the other end also.

Moe
Moe

This thread was discussed between 09/02/2003 and 21/02/2003

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