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MG MGF Technical - K&N Induction and plug leads

I am wondering if people could just answer these two questions, as the archive is playing up with me:

1. I am getting the K&N induction kit fitted - what sort of performance increases have other people noticed on the VVC with this fitted? Also, I used to have a twin carb MG Meastro as a first car (Had twin 40 webbers!) and it made a great sound. Is this the aural pleasure I can expect?

2. I was looking at the B&G performance HT leads at 69. Look like a worthwhile purchase, but has does anyone know the price of the standard ones from Rover (off the top of their heads). Are these generally good quality performance leads, or do you think I'll get more benefit from the performance jobbies?

Cheers
Andrew Hay

Andrew, i can give you an idea on No. 1, i only have an MPi and i have never heard a car with twin webbers...but on my MPi the performance difference is noticable, i wouldn't say it was huge, its a lot more responsive aswell. All in all a very pleaent improvement. as for the noise, i certainly haven't been disapointed. It gives a decent roar when you put your foot down, a huge improvement over standard noise
Matt

Echo what Matt says & I think the figures for the K&N on the VVC is 16bhp extra...pretty good.

Dave

http://www.mgfvvc.freeserve.co.uk
DaveB

Cheers. I saw the 16 bhp figure on the K&N web site as well, but found it hard to believe. It showed the standard output to be 129bhp, which is odd. Wonder if they measured the original bhp at the wheels, and the K&N at the flywheel?
Andrew Hay

As far as i now the 15bhp gain, was worked out from an independant test, people on this board should be able to confirm this or not.

For my 1.8MPi the figures give me 8hp gain, and on the last track day, i seem to be able to match 1.8 MX5s on straight line speed, I'm pretty sure a standard 1.8 MGF isn't meant to be able to, so theres certainly a power gain there.

But to be honest i would have put one on just for the noise
Matt

>But to be honest i would have put one on just for the noise<

I'm still waiting for mine to be delivered (sigh)

Jérôme

Hi Andrew

I enquired at Rover last week about HT Leads, they stated that it depended on the VIN No of the vehicle as to which ones you needed.
The cost would have been £27 or £32 depending on which your car needed.

I'm toying with changing mine.

Steve

Steve

The VVC leads are lnoger than the MPi, I believe. I'm not convinced the B&G leads are worth the difference - but I guess it deends how often you want t open up the engine bay, etc.,

They ARE red though, which is a good thing.

E
Ed Clarke

Cheers, especially for those prices Steve. I am still unsure, but will probably end up with the Rover ones now, as I've left it too late to order the B&G ones before the service. It is not so much the look of the things, but the fact that a decent set of leads ensures optimum performance, whereas standard ones 'may' be more prone to the effects of age. Will consider the new leads next year.
Andrew Hay

I have the magnecor High Performance leads which I swapped from the original Rover ones. I personally don't believe there is much difference when either is first installed. Over time tho this view may change. However construction wise the Magnecors are in a different league. The reason I had to change was I snapped the top off of one of the leads while removing it from the plug. I've always felt this part of the lead was a little suspect.
Anyway the Magnecors are fully molded (moulded ??) at this point so hopefully no probs in the future.
These leads are blue the red onces are the competition type.

Cost is 60 quid all in from B+G.

The best thing you can do for your *F* performance wise is to change the plugs regularly. At least every 12 months.

Gaz
Gaz

According to MG World tests 15BHP on a VVC and about 8 BHP on an MPi if I remember correctly.
Tony Smith

I had a K&N fitted when I drove back to London at Christmas to my 2000VVC. I haven't been disappointed. I found the VVC acceleration a little sluggish when I put my foot down before the K&N, but since the K&N there's a noticable difference with the throttle response being much much much sharper and power comming on quicker.

I also find my car now has tremondous accelerative power on the motorway. If I've been slowed down behind a lorry with cars stacked behind me, as soon as the lorry's pulled in, I can floor the accelerater with the car already doing 60mph and leave most cars behind me quite shocked (I imagine) as I leave them for dusk.

The K&N also makes a great sound, sort of hollow but deep kind of roar.

Rover's going to have to do a lot better than the 160 Trophy if they want me to change up from my 158BHP VVC (143BHP VVC + 15BHP K&N).

Only trouble is I am waiting for the authorities here in Switzerland to see if I get a ban for speeding! (I am innocent you honour, honest)



Paul

The filter tests can be found at http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/robmidgleybell/filter.htm

Cheers

Rob
http://go.to/mgfgallery
Rob Bell

Andrew,

I've just been charged £45.39 + VAT from my Rover dealer for bog standard leads for my 97 VVC. It would be interesting to hear how much you are charged. I did get a price of £36 inc of VAT from Eurospares, but this was AFTER the my dealer had stung me with the bill.

Good Luck

John
Andrew

Hi all,

I installed a PiperX Vector Cone kit about 6 weeks ago to my Abingdon VVC, and it has made quite a difference! According to both Mike Satur and Motobuild (who race VVC's in the MG Cup), the 15bhp tests are greatly exagerated... And they both think that the PiperX gives slightly more power than the K&N... I havent put mine on the rolling road yet (I intend to do that soon), so I dont know.. Of course, the power increase is completely dependent on your specific car - and everyone is likely to have different results! Engine heat, age, oil, petrol (octane), tuning, MEMS, tyre condition, cams, pistons, rings, gasket, ... the list goes on, all affect performance, BHP, etc.

Personally, I dont think there is much difference between the PiperX or the K&N.. They both sound brilliant, and give extra torque, throttle response and BHP...

However, soon I wont need either, as I have a nice little project that I am about to embark on with my F (and her engine) ;))

As for the leads, they wont make a blind bit of difference to your performance, but changing them is probably a good idea. They will deliver better sparking to the cylinders, making the system better able to withstand misfires, not to mention they'll probably last longer...

If you are changing the leads, you may wanna think about changing the sparks too.. Bosch Super-4's are pretty good... However, the OE platinum sparks that come with the VVC are pretty good too!

Hope that helps!

Thanks!

Shash
Shashi Dookhee

Hi Shashi,

<<< However, soon I wont need either, as I have a nice little project that I am about to embark on with my F (and her engine) ;)) >>>

Are you trying to keep us in suspense? What is this little project you're about to embark on? Go on, share it with us!!

Daniel.
Daniel Ginger

He is replacing the 1800 K series engine with an electric motor!

Ted
Ted Newman

At least it wouldn't suffer from a HGF!

Daniel.
Daniel Ginger

My money is on Shashi supercharging it. If you do Shashi i would be keen for you to take me for a drive, show me what its like. i want to get mine supercharged.
Matt

Hi Shashi,

Okay, we are all really intrigued with the plans you have for the car- we're going to pile on the pressure until you tell us you're going to do! ;o)

Regarding the 15 bhp gain well quote for the 57i, it really is genuine for a K&N on a VVC- no BS, it's what we saw. The absolute figures are ofcourse questionable, as rolling roads are not the most accurate of measurement devices (as opposed to engine dynos that give far more reproducible results). But as we managed to reproduce other independent rolling road results from other 'roads, I would reckon that this is actually pretty representative.

The PX induction kit I haven't tried, but the design is similar to that of the Ramair filter system we did try, and the RamAir's performance is pretty much identical to the K&N- so I should think that your reckoning that the PX and K&N are pretty level is probably spot on. Thing is that people forget that 15 bhp is not going to make the car THAT much faster... Add 20-50 bhp with a boot load of torque, THEN you'd notice! For this reason I don't think we are going to be too impressed with the Trophy 160- unless ofcourse it has alot more torque than a standard VVC.

Motobuild race their car in the MGOC race championship. Not sure of the regs (Kelvin will probably know), but these cars are alot closer to road spec than the cars that competed in the MGF Cup (and now the Abingdon Challenge with the MGCC). This means that they are closer to what we know with our cars... Techspeed et al. are professional race teams (not amateur club racers) so probably more knowledgable about race cars- which isn't to belittle Motobuild, but worth bearing in mind.

The best filter of the moment is likely to be the ITG/PTP filter- but it isn't cheap at around 280 quid!!! =oO

So what are you planning for your next upgrade? If the filter is to be 'ditched' then are we talking super or turbo charging?

Rob
Rob Bell

I'm wondering whether you may get more BHP from K&N on normal roads? My uneducated theory is that you are more likely to get more cold air while the car is actually moving along the road. Surely you won't get as much cold air intake in a garage on a rolling road? Rob, correct me if I'm talking rubbish!

As for the Trophy, I think you're correct Rob. Based on the 0-60 figures of a shade under 7 seconds as mentioned on this BBS, that seems to indicate very little extra torque at all over the standard VVC. What a shame!

Daniel.
Daniel Ginger

Sorry Chaps

I fitted an K&N and an SP exhaust in one day and I personally did not notice much difference except a lot of noise and maybe very slightly better at top end. I really only noticed a difference when I fitted high lift cams, but this is expensive. The bottom line is you get what you pay for. Fitting the K&N is a good start but do not expect much performance when you drive it you will be hard to find any difference IMO.
Steve

Daniel, you are absolutely 100% spot on IMO. One of the causes of failure to achieve consistent results on rolling roads is heat build up in the engine bay ruining any potential power gain through a reduction of the intake air density (Shashi quite correctly alluded to a number of other causes). For 'our' tests, we removed the engine cover and left the boot open reducing the intake temperature. This is not representative of road driving, and don't let anyone try to fool you that a 1kW fan is capable of mimicking the air speed of a car travelling 60 mph... So it is a compromise. Of interest, when we closed the engine bay cover, all power gains were lost (over 5 bhp!); moreover, when Roger put his car on the rolling road- with his enclosed filter system and air intake outside the car, he got far better RR results (over 5 bhp) than the standard cars without the air feed... COLD AIR IS VITAL.

This is why I might expect the ITG filter system to out perform the K&N- and why Carl's home-made air box is such a good idea. I'll be making my own version, hopefully sometime in the spring and I'll tell you how I get on, and how to replicate it your self for those who are interested. The main advantages, i think, will be better torque and better performance from a standstill. The K&N/ Piper PX style systems are good, but they are compromised.

Steve, all the performance gain from a K&N is at the top end- so your experience is no surprise- see my previous posting! Cams are likely to make more difference, but would work even better if you get the head gas flowed and ported with VVC sized valves... Check out David Andrews K-series tuning site for details.

Rob



Rob Bell

Rob

What would a home made air box involve.

Is it just a case of making a box round the filter with cold air pipes feeding into it, and i assume it needs to be able to flow out aswell. and maybe some heat sheilding to keep it cooler.
but i dunno. what sort of improvements do you see it making.
Matt

Hi Matt

I am working on a tip off from Roger on this one ;o)
I've purchased a 'dut bin' style air filter housing from an early Rover 820 EFi (which is nice- keeps the parts in the family as it were) which is easily large enough to enclose the cone filter (of what ever make takes your fancy- but I'll be using a K&N since I already have it). The cold air supply will be routed from the near side engine bay air inlet, so that the air intake will effectively sealed from the engine bay. That near side air vent, whilst a reasonably high pressure area on the body work, is not in itself enough to get a decent air flow into the air box. Therefore, to get air into the air box, you need a fully enclosed system to suck air in...

The principles are all pretty straightforward, the difficulties are all packaging and accounting for the torque-reaction movement of the engine...

I hadn't considered covering in heat refective insulation- a good idea, but first I'll check intake temps before adding extra weight. Hopefully heat soak shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Rob
Rob Bell

Rob

What about the possibility of using the (or something similar) induction pipes that you already have, in order to have ram air into the box.
Matt

It is an idea that could be experimented with, and could work well. But to be absolutely honest, I am not entirely convinced that it would work because of fluctuating air pressures in the non-linear air flow under the car. Also, an enclosed air intake system with an intake that low would be harzardous in standing water- like fords :o( Ideally, I'd like to move away from the air intake being that low down- the filter gets way too dirty too quickly :o(

Rob
Rob Bell

Have it sticking up over the top of the roof, problem solved
Matt

Rally cars do that (have a breather at roof-level)... ;) But thats mainly cuz they get submerged into water and need to breathe ;)

As for my special plans..... ;) Well, here's some of the things I'm gonna be doing:

gasflowed head
custom-built one-off cams
custom pistons
custom rods (dropping the compression a little)
custom mapped replacement EMU
metal-type higher performance catalyst
quad-pipe exhaust system
high-flow inlet manifold
custom-built supercharger
- plus other smaller things

Of course, I'm completely modifying the suspension, brakes, shocks, etc - be a bit crazy to have all that power, but no control ;)

Hope to get at least 240bhp+, with a healthy increase in torque..

Nobody remind me of how much this is costing.. It's a killer :P

Shash
Shashi Dookhee

er, or maybe not ;o) LOL- the car would suffocate if you ever dropped the hood!
Rob Bell

Shashi- sounds very very impressive. Who is doing the work for you? You are going to have one very quick MGF. Any body mods, or are you going for the 'Q-car approach'?

Rob
Rob Bell

Talking of Q Cars anyone using the M25 Essex section look out for dark green Rover 600 cars - watch your mirror and if they seem to be 'staying with you' back off!

Ted
Ted Newman

Hello Rob,

great job with all the diagrams with different filters on your site http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/robmidgleybell/filter.htm

Question: Could you produce a diagram with the standard filter, the K&N panel filter and the K&N 57i cone filter for the 1.8 MPi.

Marc (Flame red MPi)
Marco Harzenmoser

Rob,

Was thinking of the F1 kit (Satur), with some custom modifications... I know it might make a bit more weight, but I dont think I'll be MG Cup racing her anytime soon ;)

Shash
Shashi Dookhee

Marco- done it. Have a look at http://www.crosswinds.net/~mgfgallery/filter_comparison.htm

It's advantage 57i all the way until that nasty torque dip... :o(

Remember that this effects 1.8 MPis ONLY. The 57i kit was developed for VVCs, so bare that in mind. Do as Ted has done and shorten the spacer tube. :o)

Hey Shashi, nice one. But have you seen the Supersprint kit that Mike is bringing out? I know it involves considerable metal work, but looking at the pictures of Andy G's car, it is well worth it.

Rob
Rob Bell

Hello Rob,

great job your new diagram.

If you have plenty of time ...? Could you also include the curve for the torque?

Thanks a lot

Marc
Marco Harzenmoser

Rob.. Not sure about the metal kit.. It's probably heavier than the F-ONE kit.. The F-ONE does look a bit more imposing, tho ;) I'm thinking of heading down to Mike's place to take a look at them in person... Fitting the kit would be the last thing I do tho, most likely...

Shashi Dookhee

I have the leads, K&N plus new plugs, after opening the engine bay, (eventually, only after finding the web page with instructions)

I got scared, can any one help me on how to fit them,I could not even find the plugs, {and I do know what they look like}.
Please help me solve the starting problems on my VVC, is there anything else I should change at the same time?
graeme arnold

>I got scared, can any one help me on how to fit them,I could not even find the plugs, {and I do know what they look like}.

1. Got to my website and click on the link 'Engine Access'.

2. Scroll down the page to 'Step 7' and click on the image to the right of the text instructions.

3. You should now have a picture of the engine bay in front of you with the main bulk of the head (the big black lump) in the lower half of the picture.

4. Note the plastic trim running down the center of this with 'Rover' in raised letters. If you look to each end of this cover you will see a screw, remove both of these then the plastic cover itself.

5. With the cover now removed you will see the familar plug lead caps fitted over the end of the spark plugs - you should be alright from here I guess. Just follow the leads back the other way to find teh other ends! :)

HTH.

http://www.dotcomoff.demon.co.uk

Home of the F'ers Gallery, MG Dealer Guide and NEW MGF FAQ. :)
Paul Lathwell

Marco, your wish is my command (etc etc), I'll see what I can do.

Shashi, I'd be surprised if the Supersprint kit was heavier TBQH as the old metal is cut out for the new. I guess it depends upon how reversible you want the kit to be. Ultimately though, you are right- buy the one you most like the look of. FWIW, I prefer the Supersports simply because it looks less 'tacked on' and more cohesive and sympathetic to the car.

Rob
Rob Bell

Paul

Thanks, found them (how stupid can I be?!)new leads, new plugs and K&N now fitted,now I can sit back and enjoy the ride.

Thnx
graeme arnold

Shashi,

I saw the impressive list of mods you're heading to, and I have a small question. If you were forced to choose only one or maybe two items of your list, instead of the whole bunch, which one would you choose. And euh... don't choose the filter and exhaust.

I want to know what's the next step after fitting filter and exhaust and removing the cat.

Thanks,
Erik

This thread was discussed between 05/02/2001 and 19/02/2001

MG MGF Technical index

This thread is from the archive. The Live MG MGF Technical BBS is active now.