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MG MGF Technical - New MGF front tyres values

I asked for toe-in of 5" to realign fronts, as suggested by some blokes on the BBS, but dealer now told me Rover communicated new values for front tyres. Now it is a toe-IN of 10" that dealers have to set. Mine was set to this new value. Anyone knows about this?
Dirk

Dirk,

News to me, and i suspect a few others, including the dealers :-) .

More importantly, how does the car feel now?


Gavin
W187YHJ
gavin phillips

Dirk

Your post is coming across as 5" (5 inches) and 10" (10 inches) that is 12.5 cm and 25 cm toe in !

Can't be can it?

Ted
Ted Newman

To stop an argument between Dirk and Ted, I think you're both right. ' and " can also be used to refer to minutes and seconds when talking about an angle (after degrees). It's also acceptable to quote them in metric divisions (Depends on whether you're an astronomer or a mechanic).

N837 OGF
Hugh

Thanks Hugh!

So what is it then?

Ted
Ted Newman

the car steering feels great (mainly due to new tyres), but I haven't really drove with it to feel vibration or not (which was felt before I went to dealer). I will keep looking my front tyres very attentively to spot any excessive wear compare with outer side.
Anyway, from 5 secs toe-out (+0'5") to 10 secs toe-in (-0'10") is quite a big change. I saw the papers about this, no joke.
Dirk

Dirk, ' means minutes and " means seconds... Best write degrees as degrees!

Anyway, a shift from 10 minutes toe out to 10 minutes toe in is dramatic, and will have enormous impact upon the steering on the car: effectively this is dialing in considerable 'oversteer' into the front geometry. The up shoot from this is steering with far sharper turn in, markedly reduced understeer and from experience, better steering feel.

Personally I would only go for a toe angle this 'extreme' if the car is lowered such that the wheel centre is at the same horizontal plane as the front track control arm to avoid roll-compression induced toe-in which could detrimentally exacerbate front oversteer.

Many have found 5 minutes toe-in works well, and I think it represents a terrific compromise for chassis balance and neglible outer edge tyre damage.

Rob
Rob Bell

Dirk - I have been running at 10 minutes front toe in per wheel for quite some time now, along with parallel rears. Makes the handling great. I don't know what Rover/MG is recommending and to be honest I don't care. This setup gives me great handling, even tyre wear, and very good straight line stability with no splitter. I also ought to mention that I have Yoko A520's as well.

I think Robs comment on how dramatic a change from 10 minutes toe out to 10 minutes toe in can be is probably right. It took me 4 years of eperimentation and at least 4 trips to the alignment bay to get to what I wanted. However I find it a really great setup and totally transforms the car. Just be careful how you push it at the start. It takes time to get used to the back end helping you around corners and the reduced amount of steering input and weight needed. Especially with new tyres fitted.

Alan
Alan

Hi all,

got a new drive feeling also after the poly-bushes installation at the rear (complete rear set).

The toe at my car was set to ZERO.

The car dropped after the alignement about 10mm and I guess it got slightly toe OUT then.
Can't say much about about that following behavior but I had problems to get the feeling wether the car did oversteer or understeer. I my simple words I would say it was 'neutral'.

Cause of fear on tyre wear etc and to rough suspension (bouncy behavior) I raised the car then for about 20 mm and now I guess it is slightly toe IN.

(OUT to IN change, cause of hight change and relation of the well known MGF suspension mechanics. )

Anyway, now it is great !!
I had about 1000 km motorway runs and a bit cruising with this setup and I'm sure that most of the improvement relates to stiff polybush addon at the rear axle.

The car now reacts very directly at the steering wheel and it slightly oversteers.

Can that be or do I only dream ?

Cheers
Dieter
Dieter

Those poly bushes are going have quite an impact upon how a car handles by dialing out some of the toe- angle changes that occur in acceleration, braking and cornering. As the rear wheels tend to toe (point) in the opposite direction to the corner(oversteering), one uses parallel rear toe to encourage the rear to change direction- as the standard toe-in counters this toe-change induced oversteer to a significant degree.

A parallel rear feels great on the road!

Not so clever on the track however- going sideways everywhere is not the fastest way round! Have to say that the slides one can get from this set up are far more recoverable than using the standard 10 minutes toe-in. MUCH less snappy. MUCH more fun! It gives the kind of handling that journalists always rave about...

Personally, I've settled on 5 minutes toe-in front and rear, and the car feels great- both on the track and on the road. As usual one has the choice to set up the car the way one wants to, but I still think that setting the rear toe angle to 10 minutes toe out with the front 10 minutes toe in is going to result in, er, exciting handling!!! The set up that Alan has chosen will be terrific fun. Best have at least the rear tie-bar bush spacers fitted though (IMHO)!

Rob
Rob Bell

Rob - Did you misread my settings? The rear wheels are parallel (eg 0) and I do have the uprated tie bar spacers/bushes fitted. I agree with your conclusion on rear toe out with front toe in. That would be extremely exciting and probably quite hazardous on the road.

What I actually find with my settings are that:
1. Slow speed direction change, eg around town, is instant with lighter and much more direct steering than previously.
2. High speed direction change is equally direct with less steering input and weight required, and you can feel the rear helping. No feeling of understeer but equally it doesn't feel like its about to oversteer off into the bushes either. Basically neutral including over mid corner undulations/bumps.
3. Straight line handling is very stable, unlike how it was with the base settings. Also it doesn't get pushed around by sidewinds or wander too much in the truck tramlines most major roads have these days. I do not have a splitter fitted.
4. Front does not patter over mid corner bumps/holes like it used to. It basically now holds the chosen line always.

Basically it is what you described as the sort of handling journalists rave about. The only area lacking now to me is the steering feedback. It is still a little bit dead compared to the best, eg the F355's and F360's of this world. This I believe is down to the EPAS so not really anything I can do to change this unfortunately.

Getting back to the original thread though if this is what Rover/MG are now promoting/setting it is about time they did. It is the easiest, cheapest and most effective change they could do to lift the whole cars appeal. It is just sad that it has taken them the 5 years to get around to it. Just one little rider here though. Although these settings will transform the car throwing away the NCT3's and putting decent boots on the car is at least as important, if not more so.

Keep on enjoying your cars folks. Mine will be taking part in the South Downs run this weekend and the Cornish Riviera Express run next weekend. Hope to see some of you there.

Alan
Alan

Sorry Alan, I didn't make myself clear in my last comment- I think that your setting (that I have tried, albeit with 5 minutes rather than 10 minutes toe in at the front) is a great deal of fun, and what you describe on the road was exactly what I found.

Highly recommendable set up! :o)

The back was a little too eager to drift out on the track however- losing time by scrubbing speed going sideways on fast corners. However, the kinds of cornering loading you get at places like Silverstone is well in excess of what I would try on the road. Therefore, I have had to compromise a bit of road fun for track competance...

I wasn't trying to suggest that you had the rear toe-out setting- although re-reading what I have written this could be misconstrued... Oops!

And back to the original thread- I totally agree with you Alan. Some decent tyres and some small tweeks to suspension geometry= a sports suspension set up!
About time Rover picked up on this, and I look forward to see what changes (if any) the Lola engineers make to the MGF.

Rob
Rob Bell

MG have just put a bulletin out to say that only the Goodyear tyres are approved for the MGF (NCT3 Touring 1.8i and Eagle F1 VVC). They say that it is the ONLY correct and approved tyre and that handling can be compromised.
Terry Cox

That isn't a recent bulletin Terry- or at least one that has not been issued before.

In one sense, it is spot on: many tyres DO NOT suit the MGF- especially any tyre that has *not* the 'Ultra-performance' rating- like the Goodyear F1 and the Bridgestone S-02.

But as I have alluded to, there are other BETTER tyres that suit the MGF down to the ground, so the statement is misleading. I guess that someone at Rover feels that it is easier (and more profitable?) to emphasise the OEM tyres rather than release a comprehensive list of those tyres that do or don't work...

I guess this isn't surprising; Rover hasn't the money to throw at testing every single tyre on the market to see if it works with the MGF. I doubt that any manufacturer does.

'Buy only OEM' tyres is an easy slogan to sell...

Fortunately, enthusiasts on the BBS have found better alternatives- perhaps we should educate them at Rover?

Rob
Rob Bell

Does it say 'the ONLY correct AND approved tyre' or 'the ONLY correct approved tyre' ????????

Ted

Ted Newman

Over 2 years ago there was specific comment on the internal construction of tyres being able to cause incidences of wayward handling and the follow up to this was the strict reference to the use of only the two Goodyear OE fit tyres. Even then there was comment that there is enough uncontrolled production variation between tyres that the 'sensitive MGF suspension' can respond negatively to them.

I can also add that during compression and extension of the front suspension by only 30 to 40mm, a variation of approx 10 minutes in front alignement. Compression sees greater toe out and extension leads to toe in.

How many know that there is an alternative track rod end (GSJ733) that is available to correct conditions where there is excessive toe out during the compression/extension test (i.e. somewhat more than 10 minutes) on just one wheel. The replacement track rod end being fitted to just that affected side.

If the opposite applies, i.e. significantly less than 10 mins toe out during the same test on one wheel then that wheel can be fitted with spacer (NAM 2109) between the swivel hub and the steering arm to help correct that.

We all know the sensitivity of our suspension systems, and the degree of problems dealers have in simply pumping the suspensions to the correct height, How do they cope with these bulletin recomendations? They don't in most cases I suggest.

Rob, I suggest that the apparent 'head in sand' approach regarding the Goodyear fit only view, has more to do with Rover's faith in dealers being able to get it wrong, more times with a wider range of 'approved tyres', than get it right and so on balance the status quo is a safer route

Rog
Roger Parker

Absolutely- as I mentioned Rog, providing a simple message that 'Goodyears good, everything else bad' is a simple and unambigious message that avoids any chance of a cock-up. I don't think that this is really an intentional move by Rover to prevent sales of other tyres for MGs- and frankly, I don't blame them for it at all.

We [here on the BBS] have more information to work with now, so we can make an informed choice to ignore this dictum should we so wish.

Bridgestones for me thanks! ;o)

Rob
Rob Bell

I would quite imagine that there is contract between Rover and Goodyear that means Rover are pretty much bound to insist on the use of the NCT3's anyway. I think we have to assume that all the setting up of the F was originally done with the wheels shod with Goodyear rubber which would again make Rover want to insist on the use of a tyre they have tested themselves.
Paul Lathwell

Hi,
got the track rod end and also the washer at the swivel hub installed in 98 when I got my MGF and heavy complained the side to side dancing car. As Rog said and that nearly forgotten bulletin from the middle of 96 stated.
Rog, I wish all dealers would really understand that paper. Goodyear and other tyre manufacturers would have had low sales to loads of unlucky friends ;-)

>How do they cope with these bulletin recomendations? They don't in most cases I suggest.

They cannot cope, cause they do not understand it !!
Do you recall my shouts at this BBS one year ago ?
'Mark the tech' was the first one who approved the toe angle variation of 10 minutes per 30mm that time.

So lets go on and educate them.
:o)
Dieter
Dieter

Well, my F wore out two sets of NCT3 Touring within the first 18 months or so it looks like goodyear aint any good either.

To be quite honest I think the NCT3 Touring is a bad tyre for the F considering the cars layout, my F would slide all over the place on them. I would even say that they would be a dangerous choice for the F.

I have given up with Rover, I know I'm on my own now, so I don't even want to think about them.

If anyone knows a really good independant mechanic in Holland who can keep my F in good order please let me know.

I have been to four Rover dealers, two of them MG designated. Only one of them has done a good job at a good price, and he was not even an "MG" Rover dealer.

Tony Smith

Tony,

I agree that Rover garages in Holland are pretty bad from my experience. Since in my mind the MGF is a unique car in Holland I still prefer to have a Rover garage do the servicing. Believe it or not, I get my car serviced by a Rover garage in Friesland 2.5 hours away (my girlfriend is from Leuwarden - garage visits coincide with visiting her parents). So far they have not let me down. They seem knowledgeable about the bulletins, etc. Of course the true test that seperates the men from the boys is the coolant change in my next service (100 000 km). Let's see how they do that.

David
David Lamas Loureiro

I got a Rover dealer in Zoetermeer to replace my suspension bushes and he seemed to do a good job and did not charge too much. I will use him in the future.

Auto Ambacht
Ambachtsherenlaan 103
2722 CZ Zoetermeer

Not an MG dealer, but I don't think that means much....
Tony Smith

Has anyone an idea how long it takes for the installation of the poly-bushes, ONLY on the front suspension (front kit)? (mine seemed to be heavily worn so I decided to get the Satur bushes and see if it improves things) Rear seemed to be ok, so untouched :)
Dirk

Dirk, Yes, 6 hours according to Mike Satur, I think this guy did it quicker because he smiled when he said "And how many hours did we say". I think he was cheaper than Mike, who charges 160 quid for full fitting service. I left out the anti roll bar bushes.

I paid arround fl 550 just for the labour (which is ... gawd knows in BF or whatever).
Tony Smith


Hi all,

as You already may know there are shortcuts to everything !! Removing the old bushes is the timeconsuming thing. If done by the book A-arms shall be removed and placed in an hydraulic press + special tool to force them out. At some shops they just cut the protrouding (sp?) rubber at one side with a sharp knife and then more easily get the old one out without too much fuss..
Installing is much easier as most manufacturers of poly bushes make them in 2 parts + a stainles steel bit. This makes it easy to first assembly one+ SS-part at one side and slide in the other at opposite side.Some force IS needed but well below hydraulic press . Donīt know the english word for it but such handles that can be adjusted to keep woodparts in pressure when glued is just right for the job .
I did the job last winter - wonīt do it again!!

But as I stated last time this was in a thread - unless You are a true DIEīr leave the front to the proīs !

Regards , Carl.
Carl

Dirk,
I've found that there's a supplier of Powerflex bushes in Luxemburg :

RSK TUNING
LAURENT STUCKEMANN
61 AV.DE.LE GARE, L4130
ESCHALZETTE
Tel: (+352) 544963
Fax: (+352) 544963

(found on www.powerflex.co.uk)

If you make an inquiry, I'd interested to know how much they quote for the full set. And maybe we could get a better price if we order 2 sets, or maybe more (your bro, Erik, ... ?)

Fabrice
Fabrice

Fabrice, Dirk,
purchased 4 complete sets and additional 2 rear sets recently as omnibus purchase from 'Ford Richter' (also on the Powerflex supplier list).
Got a very reasonable price. :))
For one complete as Tony S. got, we payed 598 DM incl. p+p. I can fax my bills copy to your office fax on monday if you like.

Let me know if you get problems with RSK, then we could do something with that German dealer.
Suggest to write to Erik an Email, you know he's not that frequent surfer and he just asked also for lowering terms on another thread :)

Cheers
Dieter
PS if you're fast then may be it works until the 23rd
Dieter

Thanks Dieter,
I'm not really in a hurry...
First thing to sort is finding a supplier of EBC pads (not easy !).
Then lowering knuckles and finally, polyurethane bushes.
Fabrice
Fabrice

This thread was discussed between 31/08/2000 and 11/09/2000

MG MGF Technical index

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