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MG MGF Technical - Oil coolers

One of the chaps at work has bought a finned heatsink for the oil filter of his car. Though I know you can get a proper oil cooler for the MGF, would the big heatsink on the oil filter really make any difference. I would be grateful for any comment. Sarah.
Sarah

I don't know too much about this but i would assume that the sink is more likely for show! The filter is in a hot environment, wheras a proper oil cooler should be located up front with the water cooling radiator.

Nick
Nick

Sarah,

thanks for coming back on this little battle field of opinions.

Wev'e only two know INET MGF chaps here in Germany with oilcooler experiance.
According to the finned heatsink...
Yes, its known here too, but the price here is a bit high for a 'simple part af Aluminum' compared with the price for a complete system including a thermostate.

For the heatsink part would be some physical values of interest.
i.e. 'heat resistance' and other definitions which description I better let be :)

Anyway, some real data would be of interest.
Rog started a survey on that some weeks ago, unfortunately with low response.


Lets see
Dieter

Dieter

Oil coolers...i´m still waiting. The that should fit mine said it should be difficult! it must be a big cooler, a normal one will not do the job, because of the front to back distance! A big oil cooler will require plus 2liter of oil to fill the tubes and the cooler. Such a volume of oil can lead to oil pump failure since the pump was thought to work with 4,5 liter not 6,5. So a external electrical oil pump is needed. The external oil pump must match the oil pump, otherwise bubbles of air may get trapped in the tubes. If the working rotation of the internal oil pump changes with the RPM how can wh match the external pump with the internal one?
I just wonder if i could fit the oil cooler anywhere else...???
BrunoV

Bruno,
wait a little for results from our german chap.
He got installed it at the cars front with total pipelength of 6 meters. An adapter is assembled 'under' the oilfilter and the themostate (75 deg opening) is attached seperately just near the oilfilter.
As first result he reported a decrese of about 30 degr. !!

I am him to get more data and hopefully some pictures.
The material was no kit but cillected from the parts that racimex germany supply. Was about 200 EUR + 4 hours assembly time.

:)
Dieter
Dieter

Sarah, I have seen these finned aluminium 'heat sinks' for oil filters. They are available in a range of adonised colour finishes... er- loverly I 'spose.

From the advertisements I have seen, they are there purely for aesthetic effect as no claims as to change of oil temperature.

On an F, regard it as unwanted ballast.

Now a proper oil cooler is a thing of joy- and should come complete with thermostatic control. I await Dieter's friend's feed back on this issue with some interest!

Rob
Rob Bell

I Can hardly wait Dieter....
What about the reliability of the oil pump? It´s an increasing of about 50% of the pumped oil!
Bruno V.

Bruno,
I'm interested too, special because I have some doubts, remembering Rogs questions and several reports from MG heritage cars owners.
Doubts, because new problems could occur under our crap german winter temperature conditions. I see our friend Boris already cover the coolers front...

BTW. He owns an mpi and uses 0W40 oil (Castrol) and drives a K&N but no other changes.

Firma Racimex, 13-row Oelkuehler + Adapter + Thermostat + hose.

IMO racimex is a reseller only. The parts are surely standard, but I've got no sources.

Oil Temp. on motorway ride about 200 km/h was between 80...90 degrees.
For comparison I had in may be same outer conditions (10 .. 15 deg) last week at 200 about 130 deg.

No idea on the oilpump, but:
- no risk, no fun -

Dieter
Dieter

Bruno,

Adding an oil cooler in-line with the filter should not significantly affect the oil pump. You are increasing the total capacity of the system, not the amount of oil being pumped per minute. There is some additional drag due to friction and restrictions in the cooler and associated lines, so a higher capacity pump might be useful.
George B.
George B.

Dieter, witch are the exact dimensions of the cooler and the hose?
Can i order all the parts?
Bruno V.

Just for the record:
That shiny alloy thing available in red and blue-ish, is available from Foliatec. I think they have it in two dimensions. Don't know if it will fit our oilfilter.

Dieter, will the guy with the additional cooler join the event on saturday ?

ciao,
Erik (no cooling probs, but with the blower always on 1)
Erik

Hi,
for further investigations, because I'm sure that NOT Racimex is the manufacturer:

> Oelkuehler 13 reihig: 50052
> Adapter: 50111a
> Thermostat: 50100
> Ringoese M18: 50215
> Hohlschraube M18: 50227
>
> + Oeldruckschlauch und Schlauchbinder

This was the original language partslist that Boris from Bielefeld got installed by a german Tuner garage.

> Oilcooler 13 rows: 50052
> Adapter: 50111a
> Thermostate: 50100
> Ringoese M18: 50215
> Hohlschraube M18: 50227
*g* not all in my english brain area

> + oil high pressure hose and cable ties

So, IMO it would be of interest for the EC friends and all around to find the original manufacturer and the local suppliers.


HTH
Dieter
PS. sorry, I've no time for investigations from my side, but are still interested in results.

Dieter

Hi,
for identification works:
and please can someone translate the right english keywords for further searching on that materials:

http://www.racimex.de/produkte/auto_racimex_oelkuehler.html
http://www.racimex.de/produkte/auto_racimex_oelkuehlerzubehoer.html
http://www.racimex.de/produkte/auto_racimex_oelkuehlerzubehoer2.html
http://www.racimex.de/produkte/auto_racimex_oelkuehlerzubehoer4.html


> Oilcooler 13 rows: 50052 is DM 177
> Adapter: 50111a is DM 64.99
> Thermostate: 50100 is 64.99
> Ringoese M18: 50215 is DM 9.2
> Hohlschraube M18: 50227 is DM 4.9

The hose is a 1/2 inch type. Boris talked about a problem area near the front mounted cooler. The hoses run about 30cm 'free' without protection under the car in that front area. He asked for any to add protection cover.

I guess they used the metrical thread for the adaption screw. We talked about this UNF nearly equal subject some weeks ago.

:o)
and now ????
where is the input ??
:)
Dieter
Dieter

George...were do i get a higher capacity pump to replace the original one?
Bruno V.

Sorry, it' me again.
Here what else I found for Brunos late night research.
A common company for oilcoolers seams to be 'Mocal' UK based.
Dieter

Bruno,
I don't know, perhaps someone such as Roger could answer that. I really don't think a higher capacity pump would be required, but it would not hurt to add one if available.
George B.


Quick comment. Brown & Gammons do an oil cooler.
The MGF racers fit them. Rather overcools the oil for day-to-day use.
So much so, one of them half blanks it off when not racing!

Talk to Malcolm Gammons as he has hands on experience with them.

Cheers,
Paul
Paul

Paul...i´m in Portugal...how can i talk to Malcolm Gammons? Do they have web page? E-mail? Do they sell the oil cooler as a fitting kit witch should include all the parts + intructions? This aplies to Dieter´s awnser too, about "Mocal".

STILL WORRIED ABOUT THE OIL PUMP!!!
Bruno V.

>STILL WORRIED ABOUT THE OIL PUMP!!!

Bruno,
may be Rog knows something about an uprated gearset for the oilpump, but I wonder if its possible.

If it fails or gets worn .. Phy... !!

- no risk no fun -

B&G has a webside
http://www.ukmgparts.com/

For a long surfnight:
http://home.t-online.de/home/dkoen/mgf_link.htm

and http://mgf.tech.here.de has also got a little java search tool:
http://home.t-online.de/home/dkoen/search.htm
(but only on the T-online stuff) :9

Cheers
Dieter


Dieter

So Rog i´m waiting for your opinion and coments about the oil pump...!
Bruno V.

Dieter, You forgot http://www.theflow.demon.nl/fab/ :-)

Tony Smith

Sorry I'm late!!!

I see no reason to have any concern about the basics of the oil pump. It should be quite possible to increase the system pressure by increasing the spring rate by way of a stronger spring or spacers with the existing spring on the pressure relief valve. I know that unchecked there is more than enough efiiciency in any of these pumps to raise the line pressure high enough to blow up the oil filters just like you blow up a baloon!! What then explodes violently is the failing rubber seal between the filter and the mounting.

Oil flow in terms of volume will also be sufficient for any road application. There may also be some scope to perhaps 'blueprint' the oil pump. This to those unfamiliar with the term is the checking in minute detail standard components and ensuring that all casting edges and tolerances are exactly as the desinger intended. Production quality is far better than it used to be and there isn't the scope that older production engines such as the B series used to offer. However ensuring that all tolerances are spot on can still probably see a worthwile increase in pump performance without using any non standard parts.

I find the concept of the filter 'gismo' amusing and see it as to be potentially as effective as a chocolate fireguard.

One worthwile alternative cooling device has not been measured and that is the oil to water cooler. Several desings are available and whilst not as effective in outright performance terms as the oil to air types, they do offer reasonable heat transfer and are far easier to fit.

The simplest one is the one which is sandwiched between the filter and the mounting body. Oil passes through this on its way into and out of the filter and it is surrounded by a water jacket which is connected to the cooling system. The non turbo MG Metro had one as standard form if you want to see one in action. Fitting complications would only involve the plumbing in of a suitable connection to the cooling system.

A variation on this theme is a remote version of the same such as used on the Turbo Diesel Montego. This is simply a double skinned tube with oil passing through the one part and water through the other. Mounting this one is a little more involved but does potentially give a greater surface area for heat transfer. It does mean that not only do you have to plumb it into the cooling system, but you also need to use the same adapters to break into the oil system. The advantage with this is that it can still be mounted in the engine bay and so has very short oil lines.

The advantage of this type of heat exchanger is seen in that tittle. Heat is exchanged. This is a two way street where from a cold start the coolant warms very quickly but the oil doesn't. In this period these fluid to fluid coolers provide heat transfer from coolant to the oil so bringing the oil temp up to normal faster. When the engine is at normal working temp then the peak oil temp is held back closer to the water temp so you get far less oil temp variation. In racing situations of very hot climates an oil to air cooler has a distinct advantage, but would still benefit from a thermostat to prevent overcooling.

These fluid to fluid coolers are not cheap, but for a pure road spec they offer many advantages over the oil to air type that by design needs to be remotely mounted to get decent airflow and thus efficiency. With the fluid type you keep oil temps controlled and use the front to rear water lines to carry away excess heat rather than have the problems of extra lines.

Rog
Roger Parker

As far as i could understood there is no loss of reliability of the oil pump, is this correct?
Where can i find/buy one of those water/oil coolers?
Bruno V.

Bruno,
I found them as single parts only on Chinese websides ;-/
Curious looking, like a vacuum cleaner of the early 60th..

But the 'Mocal' brand research is still 'hot'.
I saw an oilcooler adapter with included thermostate at the Lotus-meeting this afternoon, had a near look and took a photo. The brand was written to the adapter.

Source for the adapter could be Moto-Concept too. They use a quite nice and small air-oilcooler for the Elise but I forgot that brand.

Dieter

Dieter

There are a number of suppliers but Think Automotive have a web site at www.thinkauto.co.uk and the type of cooler is caller a 'Laminar flow water to oil cooler'.

Rog
Roger Parker

Roger
thats great :) :)
The Mocal brand is included in the header.

http://www.thinkauto.co.uk/ed/THINKAUTO3/Products2.htm

is surely worth to be bookmarket for Oilcooler terms.

I'll have a look now and order a catalogue.

Cheers and many thanks again

Dieter
dkoen@mgcc.de
Dieter

Here the last I would say ;-)

MOCAL products are available in the USA from
BAT inc. 2263 Industrial Boulevard, Sarasota. FL 34234
Tel. (941) 355-0005 Fax. (941) 355-4683

http://www.batinc.net/
http://www.thinkauto.co.uk/ed/THINKAUTO3/frames381.htm
http://www.thinkauto.co.uk/ed/THINKAUTO3/lamino2.gif

http://www.thinkauto.co.uk/ed/THINKAUTO3/takeoff.htm

16mm, 18mm, 26mm, 32mm, 38mm, 42mm and45mm bore hoses also -16, -20 and -24 SAE 37o (JIC) threadedunions
---

last Question for installation of the 'lamino' cooler would be:
Where to insert, and what pipe diameter is applicable then.

And now I hope (and Rog obviously too) ;-) its enough info.
Stop the thread and writing, but purchase something, measure and report.
:o)
Dieter
Dieter

MOCAL oil coolers are also available from Demon Tweeks (tel: 01978 664466). Typical cost is around 70 GBP. There is a supplimental charge for the 'oilstat' (which I presume is the oil thermostat control valve) of 20.74 GBP.

Rob
Rob Bell

*g*
Rob, I've still some days left in the old company .. so a bit time to bore companies with direct calls in a kind of english language. :)

So, a portugeese and a german reseller are of interest.
Lets see tomorrow.

http://www.thinkauto.co.uk/ed/THINKAUTO3/lamino4.gif
Can the coolant hoses be in 26 or 32 mm diameter ?

I guess the smallest one will be enough cooling power for our 1.8 Litre engine, so its about 160mm (working length 102mm) long.

I also guess that the best position would be in the flow way from the engine TO the front cooler.
Any doubts or suggestions on that ?

BTW. a 'funny' cut of their webside:
>>> ... Roger Bell is responsible for the in-house engineering and design. ... <<<
:))))
OK, no ROFLs please. This is a serious thread. *g*

Think Automotive ...office hours are: 09.00 to 17.00 GMT/BST Monday to Friday.
Tel. +44 0208 568 1172 Fax +44 0208 847 5338

Cheers
Dieter
Dieter

Hi,
a busy BBS monday, so here the last results from my water-oilcooler calls.

I talked to Mr Mathew Potter from Think Automotive Ltd. (YES, he understod me) :)
He sounded very interested in providing an water-oilcooler set and hadn't heard of K-Engine oilcooler usage before. For competion cars, yes, but not for standard road use.
So, he sent me by the data sheets of their oil-water cooler type S43-180.
(made of aluminum, 0.7 kg weight)
Its working lenght is 190mm (total is 250mm including the hose connection.
Diagramms show heat transfer over Waterflow in a nomogramm as Oilflow from 3 to 40 Litre/min (3, 5, 10, 20, 30 and 40)
and two samples of water and oil pressure drop.

Several data are required for recommendations of Think Automotive which I recently cannot give:

Type of Oil: 5W40 (i.e.)
Oilflow: ???
in Temperature: 130, I guess
Out Temp.: 90, IO also guess
Max pressure drop: ?? at viscosity ??
Heat dissipation: ?

Coolant side:
Coolant: glycol/water 50/50, I guess
Flow: ??? :-/
In temp: ?? :-/
Out Temp: ??? :-/
Max pressure drop: ?? at viscosity ??
Heat dissipation: ?

Would be nice if someone could help with data.

A Performance sample is:
Oil flow 8 l/min
Oil temp. in: 120 deg
Oil Temp.Out 108 deg
Oil press. drop 0.15 bar
viscosity, oil 7.5 cSt
--
Water flow 30l/min
Water temp in 85 deg
water temp out 86.4 deg
Pressure drop water: 0.22 bar

HEAT TRANSFER = 2.9 kW

On my question Mathew suggested to put such a cooler into the flow BACK from the watercooler to the engine.
The efford for a thermostat inside of the oilfilteradapter is a 'depends on the above missing data'.

HTH
Dieter
PS. surely, the company that Rog wrote above is only one sample. Others are http://www.behr.de and for standard air to oil cooolers the one from 'setrap'.

Dieter

I can't help with the specific details requested but would add a couple of comments on this subject following discussions at PTP Monday on this very subject. The idea of a laminar oil/water exchanger is apparently a very sound one for road spec K series engines providing a narrower more controlled window of oil temps. The cooling system does have the capacity to easily dissipate the additional heat transferred into the coolant.

PTP have a modified filter adapter housing that bolts to the block which has two normal BSP fittings that match the usual pipe fittings. This is one way the other is to use an adapter that sandwiches between the oil filter and housing. Price for this was just under 70ukp.

Also of considerable interest was a ferrous particle trap that uses a strong magnet to filter out the harmful iron based particles that grind down bearings. This is available in two forms, as a sandwich item fitting between oil filter and housing or as an inline item where oil cooler applications are used. The design allows easy stripping down for cleaning and the units does not apparently reduce oil flow or pressure. The filtration factor was down to something like 3 or 4 times smaller than the smallest particle trapped by the standard filter. Will be trying one soon. Costs around 50ukp.

Rog
Roger Parker

Roger,
thanks for your additional comments. It sounds that this discussion or developemeent is recently no longer interesting. So I'll stop here and would like to ask you directly by mail for further informations and details which I don't understand. (PTP ??)

Anyway, the thread should go IMHO to the archive with the latest info on MOCAL / Think Automotive.
;-)
They where so kind and sent a catalogue and price list today.
Here what I found in that 61 pages large papers with MG relevance.
- sales of air to oil coolers, supplies etc. as known.
But recently NO set for the MGF. Only for Elise and several older MGs (TC/TD/TF/MGA/Metro & several Rover)
- sales of all required adapters hoses etc

LAMINOVA Water-Oil cooler.
(looks like a patented kernel part for the oil temperatur flow)
Part No. /desc. /price:
C43-90 /160mm cooler incl. connections/ 138.46 GBP
C43-180 /245 mm ..../ 169.43

An adaption set for the Elise with short SS braided hoses without thermostat is 44.17 GBP

Or a 'oil take off' as single part for a Rover K-Engine:
SP1C /'oil take off' sandwich plate 13/16 UNF, tapped 1/2BSP / 16.57 GBP

VAT to add and p+p of course.

So looking on the totals. (250 GBP +++) ;-) for that game ???
No wonder that the Laminova is not so common. :)

Thanks
Dieter
Dieter

Just read in Autocar that the new Lotus EXIGE (Lotus Elise with hard top) has a 177BHP Rover K series with a front mounted oil cooler. So it can be done. Wonder what they used!

Daren
18 MGF
Daren

Daren
I would bet they use the MOCAL 'thermostate take off plate' and a 'MOCAL' or 'Setrap' 13 Row air-oil cooler.
Had both parts in my hand at the german Lotus Club meeting last weekend.
dk
Dieter

I´ve been following the threat in silence and as far as i understood the best system is an oil/air coller, is this correct Dieter? I´ve also been talking around and i´ve been told that such system would cause a decrease in oil pressure.(correct me if i´m wrong!)My question is such a drop in oil pressure will or will not damage the engine?
Bruno V.

Bruno,
consumption of 'IMOs'. I would go for that oil-water system, but you see Robs comment ;-) to much jobs and no time to try it recently from my side.

>as far as i understood the best system is an oil/air coller

I don't think so (following Rogs opinion and my skills on 'controls technique'). Air-oil cooling is only the cheapest way (materials seen only).
About 120 GBP less then this water-oil cooler.

>decrease of oilpressure or load on the oilpump.

Not resonable IMO. Its only zero dot x range. So no damadges should appear if long hoses are choosen large enough (1/2 inch)

You should fill the Email form at Think Automotive. Their catalogue contains a lot of more info and sales to Portugal are no problem in any way.

HTH
Dieter
Dieter

Hi,
data availiable :)
I wrote to MANN Filter and asked for the Oilflow through their MGF standard Oilfilter:
MANN-FILTER W 713/15 EAN-Code 40 11558 70280 9 (Rover K-Engine 1,8l)

And the answer is:
--------------------------
Guten Tag Hr. Könnecke,

dieser Ölfilter hat einen Nenndurchfluss von 15 l/min.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen

Manfred Blöchl
Abt. AE-MP

FILTERWERK MANN+HUMMEL GMBH
Hindenburgstrasse 60
71638 Ludwigsburg
Telefon: 0 71 41 / 98-46 68
Fax: 0 71 41 / 98-24 88
e-mail: manfred.blöchl@mann-hummel.com
Internet: http://www.mann-hummel.com
-------------

So 15 litres per minute is of course the maximum flow through the filter and any other part added to the flow way should have the same or a better flow ability to decrease pressure loss.

The oilfilters bypass opens at 1 Bar.

BTW while exploring their webside I found somthing amazing...
http://www.mann-hummel.com/deutsch/mannfilter/katalog/s866pg01.hbs
Rover K16 engines use at LOTOS and Rover Group is common, no question.
But what car brand in heaven is
Manucacturer: 'FSO Polen'
Car modell POLONEZ ???????????
:-/

Dieter
PS got a parts catalogue from 'ISA Racing' Germany today. looks great. A second 'Demon Tweeks' :)))
Dieter

Dieter,

An FSO Polonez is a car from Poland that looks like a Lada Samara.

And I thought this was a BBS for/about sportscars and their fans.... think I gonna buy an Elise ;-)

regards,
Erik

bahhh ;-/
but its an 1.4 Litre K-Engine (some only)
--------
Anyway, really forget that.
Erik, Fabrice, Tony, Bruno you should try to get a catalogue of http://www.isa-racing.de
!!!!
They have a sales dep. in Belgium and of course in Netherlands too and deliver worldwide.
That 200 pages racing parts thing is worth its 5 EUR. really impressive and not that 'jacky' crap like folia-tec or D&W. Product range like 'Demon Tweeks'. You'll find inside there the parts of that yellow Elise from last weekend.

AD-Sport
Klaverbadstraat
B-3560 Lummen
013-522125

Racers Hardware
Gochsedijk 9
NL-5853 AN
Siebengewald
0485 441354

regards
Dieter
Dieter

FSO employs Rover K-series engines in their cars- purchased from Rover when they realised that their range of engines would not pass emissions regulations in Western Europe!

Strange where K-series engines turn up eh?

Rob
Rob Bell

Daren,

Lotus engines are supplied through PTP.

Dieter,

PTP = Power Train Projects a company with very close links to Rover and who organise Rover engine supply to small volume manufacturers like Lotus and Caterham and other chosen companies.

http://www.powertrainprojects.co.uk

Rog
Roger Parker

Rog,
thanks for education :))
Just will add them to my company link page.

Again, (sorry) a nice one joky from the 1.8i page:

http://www.powertrainprojects.co.uk/ptp/K1800.htm
---snap----
LOW ENGINE COOLANT CAPACITY FOR RAPID WARM UP
---snap----

Oh, Oh,.... ;-)

Dieter
Dieter

This thread was discussed between 03/04/2000 and 15/04/2000

MG MGF Technical index

This thread is from the archive. The Live MG MGF Technical BBS is active now.