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MG TD TF 1500 - 54 TF - Oil Leak, Revisited - Part 2

(SUBMIT was hit by accident on my previous post)
This is a follow up to a previous post (my first). I hope this can help others, as this seems to be a common experience.

I had a severe oil leak occuring from the bottom dead center of where the original oil canister/filter mates to the oil filter housing. The oil leaked out during start up, idle and shut down. A good, heavy stream.

I thought that maybe the canister bolt was not tight enough or had loosened during a recent tranport from California to Florida. I contacted the shop (in California) that had done some work (including a oil change) and they said it left the shop "not leaking" and they instructed me to give the canister bolt a bit of a twist. Sadley, the leak continued.

I then read a tech tip that stated that "over tightening" can lead to leaks and that 15 ft lbs is the recommended torque. GREAT

I took off the canister and sure enough, the gasket was split and obviously, was the source of my rapid oil loss.

I replaced the gasket, installed the canister and tightend the canister bolt, being careful not to over tighten. Unfortunatley, I could not get my torque wrench and socket onto the canister bolt to give it the 15 ft lbs. I crossed my fingers and started the car. A few drips happend at start up and then no dripping at all during idle. After I shut off the car, some dripping occured and then had the occasional drip.

Had I not tightend the canister bolt enough? Had I tightend it too much, again?

This week-end (hopefully) I will get my torque wrench in there as I have purchased a 15mm "crows foot" to put on the end of my torque wrench in order to fit it into the tight space that prevented me from doing that before. Hopefully I have not over tightend the bolt. If I have I will replace the gasket, again.

If anyone has any suggestion, words of wisdom or encouragement it would be appreciated. And if this experience helps anyone dealing with this for the first time (as am I) then GREAT.

Cheers
MAG Graham

Be careful when using a crows foot on the end of your torque wrench. The crows foot, if pointing in line with the wrench handle adds an additional distance through which the torque is being applied. Thus you will wind up with a reading that is lower than the actual torque that is bering applied to the bolt. The easiest way to counteract this phenomonum is to align the opening of the crows foor at a right angle to the wrench handle and don't ratchet the wrench while tightening the bolt, instead reposition the crows foot at each turn to keep it aligned at right angle to the handle. The alternative is to figure the difference in torque will be by multiplying by the ratio of the distance from the center of the bolt in the crows foot to the center of the drive of the wrench and the center of the drive of the wrench to the point that the torque is being read at (in the case of hte michrometer type torque wrench, quite a small distance). It is easier to just work with the crows foot at right angle to the wrench handle. That said,the only time I have ever had a problem getting the gasket to seal is when I used the incorrect sized gasket. The one to be used should be about 0.80" across. It is also vitally important to insure that the gasket is FULLY seated all the way around the grove that it seats into. This can be somewhat difficult dut to the position of the oil pump when the engine is in the car, but it MUST be insured that the gasket is seated properly. I will reiterate what I said befor about the gasket, once it is in place and not leaking, leave it there until it shows signs of leaking again. You will be amazed how long that gasket will work properly once it is installed correctly. Good luck - Dave
David DuBois

Dave,
I don't recall if the T series are susceptible to the problem of two gaskets in the groove as are A & B series engines. Maybe you know. This should be checked. MAG, if you are not familiar with this, it is common on later MG for a gasket to be pressed immovably in the groove, and then another on top of the first. Frequently leaks, and sometimes blows out catastrophicly. You need to dig in the groove with a pointy tool to be sure that you are down to bare metal, then put one correct gasket in. As Dave says, you can leave it there for many years with no problems or leakage.
FRM
FR Millmore

Fletcher - The late TD and TF filter arrangement is the same as on the MGA and MGB. In fact, the same filter cartrige is used in them. The groove is deep enough that with an old gasket in it, it would look like another gasket would fit in the grove, but of course it wouldn't seat far enough down and will cause problems. I believe that the need to get the old gasket out completely was discussed in the previous post that MAG refers to. Dave
David DuBois

A cheap "V" groove wood carving tool (small V) is sharp enough to cut through the old gasket, and then slide under and remove.
gordon lawson - TD 27667

MAG,
A few miles after changing the oil in our ’52 TD, the canister actually wore or cut through the replacement oil seal, causing a rapid lose of engine bodily fluid!! Luckily we were backing out of a parking space when I noticed the oil streak on the asphalt. When I took it apart, the “rubber” oil seal seemed to have a hard feel to it, not rubbery and pliable as I though it should. I filed the the edge of the cannister to make sure there were no sharp edges to cut through the new seal and made sure I didn’t tighten the bolt too tight. I also added a few oil seals to the spares list. Even with these precautions, I never got that secure feeling that the seal would not fail again, so I replaced the filter with a modern, efficient spin on type. Now, changing the filter is much quicker and cleaner than it was with the old canister arrangement. Like they say,
Spin on filter adapter $65 ,,
Modern spin on filter $5,,
Piece of mind PRICELESS

SPW
Steve Wincze

Good responses - Thanks

Come to think about it, the damaged seal was very easy ... (too easy?)to remove. And I did not have to PUSH the new gasket into an obvious groove.

I will be re-removing the oil canister and really investigate that gasket and groove. I have a set of Craftsman Picks and a good MAG Lite.

David, I'll make sure to keep that crows foot at a right angle to the torque wrench. GREAT TIP

Steve, I really, really want to keep the stock oil filter setup. However, if I don't resolve this I'll be doing the $70 piece of mind. :)

I'll let you guys know how it goes.

Thanks Again,
Mark
MAG Graham

Dig deep... with mine (although even with a light i couldn't see very well) the old one was really in there and it took forever to finally get it out.
With the little wood carving tool i was able to "chase" it around and when i pulled it out, it came out in one long piece. There is a fairly deep channel to take the cover.
gordon lawson - TD 27667

Mark - You are working at an added disadvantage in that you have a TF and can't work from above, instead you'll be flat on your back. before starting, if you don't already have one, go out and get a good inspection mirror. Considering where you will be working with this, you need a small one, more the size of a dental mirror rather than one of the larger ones with a rectangular mirror. As Gordon stated, when you think that you have everything out, look very critiaclly for more of that pesky original seal. It is probably boing to be about the consistancy of brittle plastic if it has been in theere for awhile and will be coming out in bits and pieces.

As a thought, try removing the seal you just installed and try the filter housing with the old one in place, without putting a new seal in on top of it. Chances are very good, that it won't leak. If not, leave the bloody thing in place and just check for leaks at each oil change until you have a reason to pull the engine for something else. About all you have to loose with this approach is a quart of oil if it does leak. Good luck - Dave
David DuBois

MAG, where are you in Florida? You can e me off the board if you wish. George
George Butz

MAG, where are you in Florida? You can e me off board if you wish. George
George Butz

Well, I worked on that oil seal today.

Sure enough, I had not made sure to force the seal down into the groove around the oil pump/filter to receive the canister properly. To my credit, neither did the "professional" shop that did the service for me prior to me receiving the car.

The groove is clean and clear of any previous gasket materiel.

So, I begin to install the gasket properly. Working it into the groove. As I get to almost 360 degrees from where I started working it .... the gasket has almost a 1/4 in. hump in it .... IT'S TOO BIG. I try the other two gaskets (I purchased 3 from Moss Motors). All of them have the same problem.

In my first post to this BBS, it was recommended that I us NAPA Gold filter 1300 and use the middle size of the 3 gaskets that come with that cartridge. I've called my local NAPA store and they will have the part for me tomorrow ....

The saga continues

:)
MAG Graham

If the gasket is correct and the groove clean, it should not be that hard to get in. They normally go in just snug enough to not fall out. If it is tight, DO NOT work around, as you will stretch it in the process, giving the result you have. Work at 180deg points, then 90deg points, etc., pushing straight into the groove.
FRM
FR Millmore

SUCCESS!!!

Just got back from taking the TF for a test drive. Not a drip before, during(?) and after the run.

The seals I got from Moss Motors where awful. Picked up a NAPA Gold Filter 1300 and the middle sized seal of the 3 that come with it did the trick (Thank You, Evan Ford - TD 27621, Ohio, USA, eford321@hotmail.com). Fit in the seal channel like a glove.

I'm very happy to be keeping my TF that much closer to original by maintaing that pesky oil canister.

Thank You Everyone for all the useful input

Now, a new question .... regarding the lower right hand "choke" knob ....

Mark
1954 TF 1250
(My Grandfather bought it 6 months "used" in 1954)



MAG Graham

This thread was discussed between 30/07/2005 and 03/08/2005

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