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MG TD TF 1500 - Concourse TFs
| Since TFs didn't come from the factory with chrome wire wheels, how is it possible for a particular car with chrome wires to be classified concourse? I've seen a couple. Just asking. PJ |
| Paul S Jennings |
| Hi Paul, I argue that for concours you can read ornate or even gaudy. There are no original cars left on the road (if there were they would be unsafe e.g. cracked brake hoses) I hope that when the rebuild of my TF is complete it will be described as in first class, "well engineered" condition. Many of the nuts, bolts and washers are now stainless, the bonnet catches are zinc plated, the rear of the bumpers have been epoxy coated, much of the black metalwork has been powder coated and the body has been painted using modern materials. Whilst I am not a fan of some of the mods made to T series cars I would rather see one with a 5 speed box, or perhaps an alternator (showing it is in regular use), rather than a TD, trailered to a car show, with a mirror polished air manifold. Jan T |
| J Targosz |
| I agree Jan. I am also an avid supporter of Safety First! Anything that can be done, within reason, that will make these cars safer and more reliable is something to strive for. I went through the trailer queen thing years ago and it's boring. The TF I'm building now will be a driver, nice, show worthy, but a driver. I just can not see classifying a car concourse if it isn't. Chrome wire wheels on a JUDGED TF remove it from that category. Popular vote, that's another story, anything goes, the more chrome the better! JMHO. PJ |
| Paul S Jennings |
| Concourse is fine for some people, but not me. Although my TF was delivered with silver painted wire wheels I much prefer my chromed ones. Silver painting reminds me of only one thing, the extreme post war austerity in the fifties and early sixties in Norway. Regards Jan 54 TF, alternator, five speed, pertronix, radials, three point belts etc. |
| JE Kristoffersen |
| Check out the interesting wiki article about "concourse". I think there are certainly "concourse quality" restorations out there, and originality comes into play. As the article states, pretty much everything out there is vastly over-restored as compared to original. I would hope a car advertised as such would be a very top notch and nice restoration, with most original as possible. It would depend on the specific judging criteria as well, likely there would be a deduction for chrome wires. I had my TD judged in a concourse by ACCA judges, and among other things they took exception to the radial tires. I countered that as no one has reproduced the original Dunlops, you can't have "original" tires. That was the last time I'll ever enter a judged show. Best to drive, smile, and enjoy! George |
| George Butz |
| I would never vote for ANY MG with chrome WW at any car show. Just plan "gilding the lily." And chrome WW on a TD... |
| David Werblow |
| I found this on the internet Des Rudolph shared some practical experience with the Triumph Sports Car Club of Cape Town at the noggin on 17th July 2002: What is Concours d’etat vs d’elegance Concours generally comprises of 2 classes d'etat and d'elegance, however a new class is being proposed - pride of ownership. If a car is entered into d’etat it will be judged on authenticity, condition and cleanliness. If a car is entered into d’elegance it will be judged on only cleanliness and condition. So what does this mean in points? Condition and cleanliness total 430 points maximum. Authenticity has an additional maximum 570 points added to the total giving 1000 points maximum. D’etat is most important to ensure the preservation of the Triumph marque. Judging It is important to note that an inexperienced judge can judge in d’elegance whereas knowledge and experience is required to judge in authenticity in d’etat. Awards Proposals are being discussed to amend the current Nationals judging system to present Gold, Silver and Bronze medals to cars that achieve a specified standard in points – (70-79% bronze, 88-89% silver, 90-100% gold). This means that your car, when judged at your local Concours, will have to achieve at least 70% to be eligible to be entered for judging at the Nationals. No matter how you score in your local Concourse this must not stop you from going to the Nationals and enjoying yourself. In NZ we use the two terms the same way d’elegance relates to presentation and as much chrome as you like, where d’etat is for complete originality. We also have pride of ownership or peoples choice sections as well. If the event organisers use the above concours types then entrants can decide what to enter. |
| Rod Brayshaw |
| I have worked at the Meadowbrook Concours d'Elegance for over 20 years and have experienced "all the vagaries of judging". This show,has a wide variety of judges, who have their whims and preferences, so you get a variation in results. Not all the judges are "originality" experts. One thing you will find is that MONEY spent on restorations counts big time. But not always. Example: One year the Morgan was the marque car and my wife and I were delegated to squire around the Morgan's. Well when it came to judging the class, I was asked which car I would choose and I picked a well restored, original trike, owned by a college professor from PA. It had been raced the day before and had oil streaks from the open valve engine all over the body, which I thought was very cool. Mr Morgan said "that's the one I like also, the reason, my father always treasured cars that were driven, It's the winner. Well this award truly PO several competitors with pristine trike's done over with lots of money at R-M. So you never know. |
| colin stafford |
| Basically it gets down to comparison. If two cars are identical and one has chrome wheels and one painted, the painted should win. But getting it down to two cars being identical is almost impossible because every car seems to have some exceptions. Then you have to try to decide how significant one exception is over the next. |
| Christopher Couper |
| Well I happen to like the chrome wires and non factory paint on my TF, and I bought it to drive not to be judged. As the bumper sticker says, "I drove my car to the trailer show". |
| Jack Long |
| I can't wait to see Frank's TF when it is done, that will be a concours correct car. -David |
| D. Sander |
| I raised the issue of Concours d'elegance versus Concours d'etat some time ago. The terms Concourse and Concours have different meanings! Concourse refers to an open area where a crowd of people gather.CONCOURS refers to a judging event where prizes can be awarded. I like the DR approach where a higher proportion of points are awarded for originality,however there is also a recognition to the other points 'side' relating to the presentation(cleanliness) and condition of the car. Owning an 'original' car is one thing,rebuilding a car which reflects a high degree of authenticity takes on altogether different skill levels. Efficient Concours judging is a complex issue.I like the concept of having very experienced judges working with other persons who wants to learn the points of originality. Cheers Rob Grantham TF3719("Aramis"),TF9177("Athos"). |
| R GRANTHAM |
| "I drove my car to the trailer show".. Have to get one of those...love it! Although my 60 spoke chrome Dayton's with fat radials are not correct...you would have a hard time convincing me to put the skinny 48's with bias-ply tyres back on the car. It absolutely transformed the car as far as driving and handling. Maybe the next owner will feel differently...they will have the choice as the old ones will go with the car. |
| David Sheward "IZZY" TF 7427 |
| I am SOOOOOO glad that we don't do any of that Concours stuff at British By The Sea !!!!!!! We just want to have a fun day at the shore!! SPW |
| STEVE WINCZE |
| Good on ya Rob. Concourse is where the train come in. Look it up. Let's forget about the word 'Concourse' The new category for original and unrestored MGs is the Survivor or 'Patina' Class. My TF is featured on page 19 of the current TSO. There are a few original Ts still on the road. I am the first and only owner of original TF 4592. Original paint, interior, sidscreens, engine (4th rebuild)and gearbox. Everything else has had to be changed as I have driven this car all over North America; and it probably has 300,000 miles on it Mine has 'chromies' on it too.I imported them directly from Dunlops in the UK in 1957 and paid $200 for all 5. They are chromed and fully polished from outside to the inside - not true of contemporary chrome wire wheels. Gord Clark Rockburn, Qué. |
| Gordon A Clark |
| Great stuff Gordon. "Let's forget about the word Concourse". However,in the interests of longevity and in the authenticity of our wonderful cars,"Let's never forget about the word Concours".I,and many other enthusiasts throughout the wide world, won't. Cheers Rob Grantham TF3719("Aramis"),TF9177("Athos"). |
| R GRANTHAM |
| Wow, All because I spelled the word wrong! My my. |
| Paul S Jennings |
| Paul, I certainly was not directing my discussion toward you Paul. Apologies if you thought this was the case. I do live in hope for the day when, at least on eBay, the word Concours actually does correctly describe a TD or TF! Cheers Rob Grantham TF3719("Aramis"),TF9177("Athos"). |
| R GRANTHAM |
| Thanks for the spelling correction, the wiki article even had it spelled with no "s", oops. Interesting thread. George |
| George Butz |
This thread was discussed between 08/01/2014 and 10/01/2014
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