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MG TD TF 1500 - Diff Ratio Stencil Markings TF

Hi All,

A few years ago John Masters of Wichita(KS)
and George Raham(Canada) had some very interesting comments on the Factory stenciled
letters/numbers located on the rear of the diff 'pumpkin'.

I would like to replicate this type of stencil
for our TF diffs.

Does anyone have a photograph of the original
format stenciled on the diff.housing?

I am aware of the stamped ratio on the left hand axle tube on TDs and TFs.

Cheers
Rob Grantham
TF3719("Aramis"),TF9177("Athos").
Rob Grantham

I wished I had taken a picture of mine when I cleaned it up Rob, but I just painted over it. Had TF stenciled in block letters in a light yellow. Nothing else.
LED DOWNEY

Rob,

I made my own stencil using a mylar material. I think I have some mylar leftover, and if I can find it, I will cut a TF stencil for you. Send me your mailing address and I'll start looking for the mylar.

George
George Raham [TD4224]

Sorry this is so small.....

gblawson(gordon- TD27667)

Are we certain that the identification is factory and not for something like a parts changeover service?

Cheers,
Matthew.
Matthew Magilton

I read somewhere that this was done at the factory for all diffs?
gblawson(gordon- TD27667)

Rob,
When Dave Zyp converted mine he stenciled
"TF" on it. I'm pretty sure he told me he made his from a tracing he did of orginial durring a visit to Abingdon years ago. I'll snap a pictur of it for you later and post. Dave is a pretty nice guy ...wouldn't be surprised if he would do a tracing for you.
Cheers,
David
David Sheward

Gordon is right. When I got my TD, the diff. had "TD" stenciled on the back face. Over the years it gradually faded, but I was able to get a tracing of the image and made my own stencil.

George
George Raham [TD4224]

If there is enough interest, I will make up a pattern that can be mailed out for both the TD & TF to be used in making a stencil for the differentials. Attached is a picture of my diff. with the "TD" in place.
George Raham [TD4224]

Folks, IMHO this seems to be bridging on the edge of something unethical, but YMMV. Bud
Bud Krueger (TD10855)

At least I thought it was attached. I'll try again and Bud, you have a great sense of humour.

George Raham [TD4224]

Hi All,

Thankyou to everyone for their input to my request.

I must admit I have never seen this marking
on any of our TF diffs over the years however
the built up 'crud'on the diff housings before
they were restored would have probably
'camouflaged'anything underneath before blasting was done!

I am surprised the letters are the size they are on your TD George.I seem to previous
discussion mentioning the letters being about
1 and one 1/4" in height? I am wondering what size lettering is on David Sheward's TF diff?

George your offer of a mylar template is gracious.I will contact you via your email.

Cheers for now.
Rob Grantham
TF3719("Aramis"),TF9177("Athos").
Rob Grantham

The letters on mine were a bit smaller....
gblawson(gordon- TD27667)

The picture shown by george raham is spot on. Stencil to duplicate is mfg. by Duro Decal Co., Inc/Chicago and is available at some stationers, Style is Roman and size either 1 1/2 or 2".
I did mine (in pale yellow)and it looks great.
Seamus
F. HEALY

The tracing I did from the original stencil on the diff. measures 4 cm. or just under 1 5/8th". The letters appear larger because the photo was taken close to show the letters.

George
George Raham [TD4224]

None of my TD or TF diffs have ever had that lettering when cleaned off, even original cars. That's got to be the least attractive lettering on a TD - if it ever really came on one from the factory (which I doubt).

Tom
t lange

I'm with you Tom!
Randy Biallas

I would think the same rear ends were in at least two or three models, would think the Y's, minors, etc would have the same but with different ratios....easy way to tell which would go in which....and I doubt there was an aftermarket reason to apply it.... typical brass stencil design, ugly or not?
gblawson(gordon- TD27667)

Rob,
Sorry ..took it me a while to do this.
Left the camera on hi-res so had to try and degrade it to load ...if this dosen't work I'll re-set and try again.
This was obviously "re-applied" when we converted the rear ratio.
However it was something that was faintly visable when I took the rear end out to take to Dave Zyp. I did notice it then.
As to swearing it was on the car when it left the factory ....well I can't do that as I did not take delivery of the car then. Heck I was only 1 year old then.
I was "built" Jan of 53 ...Izzy was Oct. 54.
Cheers,
David

Rob,
If you don't get it from somewhere else ...I can put her up on the lift and do a tracing for you...just let me know.


David Sheward

David S,

Appreciate the effort you have gone to in getting a photo up.I have been associated with this invaluable Forum for a while now
and it never ceases to amaze me the knowledge support for each other which always seems to exist.

Trust that leg is going to allow you to continue to drive your TF.I suspect 'wild horses'would never keep you from doing same!

Cheers
Rob Grantham
TF3719("Aramis"),TF9177("Athos").
Rob Grantham

I contacted Rod Brayshaw who is a professional T type restorer in New Zealand and highly regarded for his very original restorations over there. He has come across these stencils too, both on TD and TF and kindly sent me the attached picture of a very old TD stencil. I would be interested to know how the axle assemblies arrived at Abingdon and if they were crated or racked in groups then maybe only one in the group was stencilled? Just a theory. I doubt if all had the stencil thats all.

Cheers,
Matthew.

Matthew Magilton

Interesting.
Does Rod have any idea the of the "year" TD that came from? How far "back" they marked these?

I guess the thing I don't "get" is why both TD & TF would have this ...it's not like Abingdon was building both models at the same time? I had no idea the TD was marked also.

Definetly not "for sure": on this ...but I thought I had been told the "TF" mark was an "optional ratio" marking. i.e. those with the lower ratio had a "TF" mark and those with no mark were the (standard) higher ratio. Seeing these marked "TD" makes me wonder ...is it possible higher ratio rears were maked TD and lower marked TF?

Was the TD offered with different ratios? I do believe I have read the TF was offered with 2 different ones. I retained my old gears as I am pretty sure Dave Zyp told me it was the "lower" of the 2 offered by the factory ...but still not as low as the MGA gears we installed.
David Sheward

Has any one considered posting on one of the other BBS MG Forums to see if these stencils were on "Y"'s or "ZA"'s ,,, Why would they only be on TD's or TF's ???

SPW
Steve Wincze

Hmmmm.
I sent an email & link to this thread to Dave Zyp asking if he could make comment for us.
Not sure if the email is still good (10 years old), but I for one would love to hear his input on this subject.
David Sheward

I had never heard of these stenciled markings, but since my TF has not been restored I crawled under there this morning and cleaned off some grime and much to my surprise the stencil began to emerge. I think it will become clearer if I do some more careful cleaning. The stencil is white even though it may appear yellow in the photo.
Best,
James

J K Barter

They had to share diffs between a few cars (deja vu?)...and this seems to be a pretty good way to see the diff.hahaha.erences?
Am sure paint would wear off a number of cars for a number of reasons?
gblawson(gordon- TD27667)

Hi All,

Hmmm...some interesting comments again here.
David,the TF was offered with three(3)diff
ratios including 4.875(the 'standard type'),
4.55 and 5.125.

David Zyp would be a further confirmation of
at least some diff housings being marked.

Matt.,I certainly respect the TF restoration
work done over the years by Rod Brayshaw.
True world class knowledge of what was done originally re correct Concours finishes.I think he has restored around 27 TFs!

Cheers
Rob Grantham
TF3719("Aramis"),TF9177("Athos").
Rob Grantham

A couple years ago I happened to read a note and photo of diff markings. It was based on the premise that they needed to distinguish rapidly which axle went into which car on a dual car production line. I managed to tour the MG plant in April of 1957 while in the USAF, where they were building A's and ZB's which had different rear ratios.
The A's had 4.3 and the ZB's had a 4.55, so keeping them straight easily was a priority.
On a whim, I made a "TF" Word document in an outline font, cut out the letters and pasted them on. I was happy with it, so sealed them up with clear rattle can spray.

Dick Lambert

I find James Barter's discovery and photo very compelling, and am starting to think that - once again - I am wrong. Logic works against it being a factory stencil, but facts seem to work for it.

Wrong again, Emily!

LOL. Tom in Maine
t lange

Rob,
Thanks, couldn't remember the ratios but was pretty sure there was more than one. (Heck these dayz I'm lucky if I can remember where I put my shoe!)

Going to have Izzy on the rack today so I will do a tracing of the "TF" Dave did on mine. If he conferms that he did indeed trace it from "the orginial" I'd be happy to send it to you.
Maybe by getting a few of these for compairason you will have the correct font & size?
Hit me with amailing address: hootersvilledavid "at" yahoo "dot" com and I'll get it on the way to you.

Tom ,
If I had a dime for every time I have been wrong on here I'd be driving a Veron instead of a TF!

Cheers,
David
David Sheward

A local fella saw my TD at a car show last week and offered me a rear end he had laying around for free. Cleaned it up this morning and sure enough you can just make out the stencil. It also confirms my memory from the TF that they indeed were stenciled with yellow paint. Could have used white also . Maybe whatever they had laying around but certainly yellow would be correct for those trying to do a 100 point job. I suspect this is a very early rear end as it has the two piece brake drum on one axle.

LED DOWNEY

I have cleaned off the lettering a bit more and under better lighting conditions see that it is not just a greasy white paint, but is indeed yellow. I have had this car for 35 years and just uncovered this, so I am relatively certain that it has always been there.
Best,
James Barter

J K Barter

Before I changed my differential ratio to a MGA 4.3, I thought the car had a 5.125 ratio. When I got the axle out of the car and cleaned the outside of the housing, I found the numbers 8/39 stenciled in white on the housing. I did take a photo and still have it somewhere. It is a Polaroid taken before I had a digital camera. If I can find it, I'll try to scan and post. There was no marking "TD" stenciled anywhere on the housing.
John Masters

What is the earliest year found with those markings? Thinking it might be at a model change over period and for quick identification. As the rears don't have the ratios stamped on them, I would think it's a rack identification, indicating to the workers which car it goes in, a system quite popular in the used car parts market before computers. Just guessing. ??? PJ
P S Jennings

PJ,

The earlier diff's ratios are identified by a metal stamping on the housing. It appears that later ones were stenciled, by what John Masters reports. The 8/39 indicates a 4.875 ratio which I believe was an alternate for the TF and may have been available for the TD as in Johns' case. My car was built in Nov 1950 and had the TD stenciled on the diff.

George
George Raham [TD4224]

George - I believe you will find that the standard TD ratio was 5.125, the standard TD/C and TF ratio was 4.875.

Tom in Maine
t lange

Thanks Tom,

Yes I am aware the standard TD axle is a 5.125 [8/41]. There was also available a 4.875[8/39] and a 4.55[9/41].

The standard TF axle was a 4.875[8/39] as you said and it also had available a 4.55[9/41] and a 5.125[8/41].

John Masters comment was the first I had heard of the axle ratios being ID by a stencil on the housing.

I am sure we will continue to find out more about our little beasties, give the interest and enthusiasm of our membership.

George
George Raham [TD4224]

George - sorry if I mis-read. but you wrote that the 4.875 "was an alternate for the TF", when it is the standard ratio.

Tom
t lange

I just remembered a TF that came into the shop and was considered 'Original'... I took a bunch of photos and just looked at them again....



gblawson(gordon- TD27667)

I finally found the photo of the ratio marking painted on the axle housing. It is an old Polaroid, so it is not very good. It clearly shows the 8 39 markings. I did not find any "TD" markings painted on the housing.



John Masters

Just scraped the mud and crud off of the differential of 'the53' and discovered the TD stencil (at least what's left of it):


Bud Krueger

My 2 cents, have looked our diff. which is in original paint condition and it does NOT have any stencil TF letters on it.


Colin Stafford TF6688

Wow, I've been away from the list for a while. This is a pretty interesting discussion. I've found the stencils on almost all of the axles I have converted to 4.3 gears and I've done quite a few. I take the axles down to bare metal before they are reassembled and usually they show up after all the dirt and oil have been cleaned off. The markings have always been yellow. I've only had a few TF axles so maybe they were white? I'll be cleaning one up in a few days and will try to pay close attention to it. I have seen the ratio markings that John Masters photographed once.

I always thought the stencils were done to be able to quickly identify which model when they were picked from the rack to go into a car.

Dave
Dave Clark Arizona

The Tf axle had no markings. I also sleaned a TD and it had the TD in yellow markings under a lot of dirt and oil.
Dave
Dave Clark Arizona

Do you have a chassis number for the TF Dave? I am wondering if some later TF's had no stencil markings, like Colin's car.

Matthew.
Matthew Magilton

Matthew,

You might be right. I don't have the chassis number but it was a later 1500cc car. I think a mid to late 1955. It would make sense that they discontinue the markings if the TF was the only car being produced that used that axle style.

Dave
Dave Clark Arizona

I know that the YA has a different banjo type of axle, more like the TC.
The YB has a similar axle but it is (I THINK) wider than the TD/TF axle. Maybe the need to stencil the axles arises from the need to differ between the YB that was assembled together with the TD.

I don't know if the YB axles are stenciled.
Willem vd Veer

Willem,
As far as I know, the YB's rear track is the same as the TD's: 4ft 2".
In my (humble) opinion the reason to stencil these axles is very logical from the producers point of view. Surely all rear axles for the Nuffield Organization were made and assembled by a special "branch" or even an outside supplier (Rubery Owen ?). For them it was essential that say a batch of Wolseley 4/44 rear axles didn't get mixed with a batch of mg td axles (both are nearly identical with the Wolseley only one inch wider). If you stencil them, you're sure the TD batch is shipped to Abingdon whereas the 4/44 batch goes to Cowley.
Bare in mind that this Nuffield design split rear axle was also used on the Morris Oxford MO,the J-type van, the Wolseley 4/50,4/44 and early 15/50, the Riley RME etc. etc. an enormous amount were made...
Just my 2 ct's....

Nick, TD3232
Nick Herwegh

Reactive this thread!
David Sheward

Thanks David! :)
RK Rich

Anyone out there that contributed to this thread still willing to provide a stencil for a TD? I have this on my to do list this winter.

Thanks
Rich

www.mgtd.co.nr
RK Rich

Hi Rich,
I do not have any mylar left, however if you give me your mailing address, I will send you a copy of the original pattern I made.

George
George Raham [TD4224]

My TF 1500, 8353, built 17-Dec-1954, had no markings on the rear housing with the exception of stamped numbers indicating the final drive ratio. PJ
Paul sr

Thank you George,

I have forwarded you my info via email.

Rich
RK Rich

Oh God!! Now all of us newbys have to crawl under our cars, clean off our diffs and see if we have stenciled markings. You've made my day - really!

Jud
TD 25009
J K Chapin

Here is the only photo I have of the original rear axle ratio stencil. Sorry about the quality, it is an old polaroid shot. After cleaning, it was much fainter and was painted over when the crown and pinion were changed to a 1:4.3 from a MGA.

John Masters

Thank you very much to George Raham for providing the stencil for my rear end!

Rich

www.mgtd.co.nr

RK Rich

TF2689 has no stencil markings, YB0944 has no stencil markings. The length of each are exactly the same. Hope this helps. Larry
Larry Brown

I´m with Jud here - what a powerful thread to make over 20 grown up men crawl under their cars, scrape the oily mess off the diff (finally...) just to confirm that your car is what you believed it to be (would you have done the same if you wife had told you that it´s dirty and needs a cleanup ???).

There must be easier ways to tell a TF from a TD.
But I will have a look anyway on the weekend

Mike
Mike Fritsch

Reactivated after discussion on TD/TF rear ends

My thoughts regarding stencil on rear axles.

When the MG YA and YT were released they had a similar rear axle to the TC with a ‘Morris banjo’ spiral-bevel drive.

Nov 1949. TD0251 released with "Nuffield" split rear axle with hypoid-gears, with final drive ratio 5.125:1.

Oct 1951. MG YB released, now also with "Nuffield" split rear axle also with final drive ratio of 5.125:1.

Sep 1953. TF released, also with "Nuffield" split rear axle, but with a final drive ratio of 4.875.

The last YB was produced in late 1953 (I don't have the exact date)and would have been produced on the same production lines as TD/TF.

So, we have three rear ends to be fitted on the line - all looking essentially the same, but with two different gear ratios.

I suugest that the TD and TF were stencilled to differentiate them FROM the YB. Once the YB production finished there would be no further need for stencilling as there only remained the TF.

Ian
TF4056
Ian Fry

I tried to update the above post, but was too late.

I would suggest that when the YB was released the TD rear axle was standardised with YB and gained the damper mounting tabs of the YB as per La Verne's photo.

Ian
TF4056
Ian Fry

This thread was discussed between 03/10/2010 and 16/02/2013

MG TD TF 1500 index

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