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MG TD TF 1500 - First drive - new engine noise - need advice

I finally got to drive the TD today. What a great feeling! After a long day of final assembly, I double-checked all of the fluids, brakes, etc., and decided to give it a shot. I invited my 8-year-old son to ride with me (he was 1 month old when I started this project!)

We backed out of the garage, down the driveway, and into the street. I accelerated slowly, shifted from 1st to 2nd, crept up to about 20 MPH in second gear. I did a couple of brake and steering checks. Everything worked great. We drove through residential streets keeping the speed around 20-25 for about 4 miles. Everything worked great and we both had ear-to-ear grins on our faces.

At about 5 miles, I turned on to a 45 MPH road. I planned to take it up to about 35-40 MPH. As I accelerated up to about 3200 RPMs in second and a sudden noise stared under the hood/bonnet. I pushed in the clutch and let the revs drop to idle, while checking the gauges. Oil pressure was good - water temp was good. I coasted onto a side street, then stopped and popped the hood. Nothing appeared out of the ordinary. I nursed the car back home to the garage. Luckily, this happened close to home.

When the noise first started, it sounded like a fan belt or water pump issue. Like the belt had jumped out of a pulley. It was not a heavy metallic sound, but more like a ball bearing going bad combined with the sound of rushing air. The sound is the same loudness as valve rocker noise. It is hard to pinpoint the location. I tried a stethoscope and couldn't locate the source. It sounds like it is coming from the center of the engine at piston height.

Here's what I have tried so far: I removed the fan belt to see if it was the generator or water pump (it was not.) I pulled the valve cover and turned the engine with the starter. There was plenty of oil coming out of the rockers. I checked the compression and got 130,128,125,128 on 1,2,3,4. The spark plugs were black. I also checked to make sure the starter drive had released from the flywheel.

The only other thing I can think of is maybe the throw-out/release bearing is making noise? It didn't happen until I hit 3200-3300 revs under load. Now it does it at all engine speeds. Engine performance did not change.

I think I will error on the side of caution and drop the pan tomorrow. It really doesn’t sound as bad as a main or rod bearing, but I would hate to ruin my rebuild by not checking. Does anyone have any ideas before I crawl under the car?

Thanks in advance!
Evan
Evan Ford - TD 27621

Evan, did you try removing the air filter/cleaner to see if the noise changed? Maybe obscure but I have heard of the air
filter housing collapsing and causing strange noises.
Regards,
Dennis
D F Sexton

Thanks Dennis. Good idea. I believe I did run it without the air cleaner but I'm not positive. I had to pull the air cleaner to remove the valve cover. I checked the rockers without starting the engine, then put the valve cover back on. I don't remember if I started it before I put the air cleaner back or not. My air cleaner seems to have a good gap, but I'll double check it tomorrow.

That's just the kind of ideas I need.

Evan Ford - TD 27621

Hi Evan, now doing it at all revs and centre of the engine at piston height suggests that a pinch bolt may be coming loose. I would check them out when you drop the sump.

Good luck,

Paul.
Paul van Gool

Is it possible that dear mousie has built her home and pantry in your exhaust piping and muffler? I am assuming that said items are new, but how were they stored? Loose hazelnuts and the like will rattle, and increased exhaust velocity when you put it under load will blow all the garbage up against baffles in the muffler, giving the characteristic wooshing sound of obstructed exhaust. I have had this with mousie. Also a Mercedes 380SEL which ran fine until you punched it, when it would nearly die. That one turned out to be disintegrated catalytic convertor pellets piling up in the mufflers; they would fall down and unblock if you drove around at light throttle for a bit. Listen to muffler and sniff exhaust once it is hot.
FRM
FR Millmore

Thanks guys!

I'm going to recheck everything today. I plan to start with the distributor, since I didn't check it yesterday. If I can't find anything on the outside, I'll drop the pan to have a look around.
Evan Ford - TD 27621

Does it matter if the clutch is pushed in or not? (That stops the tranny from turning). A bellhousing bolt that is too long makes a really bad noise when it rubs on the ring gear also.
George Butz

Evan,
Not sure on the "thunk" ...but on "sound of rushing air".....check the under-side of the intake manifold. On my TF I lost a bolt that is in the center of the manifold that just about drove me crazy trying to find a leak. After removing everything it was easy to see that it could have been a very simple fix!
Cheers,
David
David Sheward

You are a full year ahead of me on this problem. I wish I had something substantial to offer aside from my good wishes, and my admiration for your very thorough trouble shooting process. Your car is very lucky to have you for its owner. (If I may be allowed to insert an anthropomorphism into the conversation).

I realize now that aside from low compression in number one, and a leaky head which allowed oil into the radiator coolent but not vice versa, I'm been very fortunate since 1987. I hope when I rebuild my engine I am as patient and as thorough as you are.

Warmly, and wishing good luck,
dave
D. A. Braun

Evan

Other item in that general area would be the center cam bearing. With good lube, it would be difficult to think it is dry.

Then there is the oil pump and distributer bushings. A bit lower, but might be something to listen to. Air rushing sound is a bit of a different one though.
Bruce Cunha

Thanks again guys.

Good suggestions! I knew I could count on the board for great ideas.
I checked the manifold bolt. It is there and tight. I also checked the other manifold bolts for tightness. I will give the bell housing a close look.

I moved a step further in troubleshooting. I removed the spark plugs and started turning the engine with the hand crank. (BTW, having a hand crank is a great feature.) The noise is much easier to hear now. I still haven't isolated the area of the noise, as I can't turn the crank from the sides of the car. I am the only one home now, so I'll have to wait until my wife or sons get home and take over crank spinning. I can say the noise is constant throughout the engine revolution and the engine turns freely. It sounds more metalic now, but I think it might be the hand crank rubbing the bumper bar.

I picked up a clean oil drain pan for $1.79 at Autozone. I will drain the oil through a paint filter and see if there is anything in it.

Thanks for the kind words Dave. I have tried to be thorough, but I can't help thinking I did something wrong to cause this. I only hope I caught it before any serious damage was done.

On a funny note: my 5 year old son came out in the garage earlier and asked if I was going to take the whole car apart again...
Evan Ford - TD 27621

Bruce,

I didn't think of the cam bearing. That won't be any easy thing to check! Now that I'm cranking the engine by hand it should be easy to pinpoint the area of the sound. The dizzy and oil pump are about the height I was hearing yesterday. I'm also wondering about the rear oil seal. I did not attempt to fit a modern seal during the rebuild. It could be the scroll lightly rubbing the seal.

Thanks for the ideas.

Evan
Evan Ford - TD 27621

Evan,
Any chance of inproperly seated woodruff key in front of engine "grinding" down the front seal?
Any oil leaks?
Cheers,
David 55 TF1500 #7427
David Sheward

More testing and the problem found:

When my wife got home I assigned her to hand crank duty. I listened with a stethoscope while she turned the engine. The noise seemed to be coming from the rear main bearing area, either in the bell housing or in the back of the block. I decided to drain the sump so I could place the stethoscope into the oil drain. I filtered the oil through a paint filter and found only a few globs of assembly lube. The oil looked good. With the sump empty and the stethoscope in the drain I could hear the noise, however, it was not much louder than from outside the block. I also pulled the dizzy and it tested fine, so I decided to drop the pan.

As soon as I got the pan off, I spotted the culprit. You can see a picture here: http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/eford321/detail?.dir=/beed&.dnm=e582.jpg&.src=ph&.tok=phqao.CBtMidj7yb Somehow, a spring from the pressure plate made it’s way to the outside of the flywheel/ring gear. The spring is item number 3 on this page: http://www.mossmotors.com/Shop/ViewProducts.aspx?PlateIndexID=32783 I pulled the spring out of the ring bell housing and the noise stopped!

So, now I’m relieved that the engine is OK, but I’m pissed that my purchased pressure plate assembly came apart within 5 miles of use!

I guess I have to pull the carpet and floorboards back out to remove the gearbox. What fun!

Any advice on this adventure?

I’m off to search the archives….
Evan Ford - TD 27621

These usually get knocked out of position when fitting the gearbox, or by picking up/moving pressure plate by means of the release plate, or in shipping. If it is not mangled you should be able to put it back. If not you can usually save one off an old pressure plate - I think most of the B&B finger type plates use the same retainer spring. When replacing, be sure the three ridges on the release plate are engaged in the three grooves in the fingers.
Coulda bin worse!
FRM
FR Millmore

Evan, glad you found the problem. Great job of analysis. I feel that when all is sorted out you will enjoy many years of driving.
I maight also add that your five year old will think he was right -- you are going to take the car apart again.
Regards,
Dennis
D F Sexton

Ditto. I was thinking exactly what Dennis expressed. It is pretty cool to know what is wrong, and to know you haven't done something expensive to the engine.

dave
D. A. Braun

Evan,
So glad to hear this will not be a major $et-back!
Hey....let's all drink another toast to Evan!
I was even reluctant to mention the woodruff key ...having some idea what "that" little mistake is going to cost me!
Cheers,
David 55 TF1500 #7427
David Sheward

Evan:

Considering the possiblities, I'd say you dodged a major bullet. Small comfort, I suppose, as your lying on the garage floor taking the bloody tranny out, but I always like to look at the upside. At least your not looking for a new block.

Sing it:

"Some things in life are bad, they can always make you mad, other things, they make you swear and curse."

"When your chewing on life's gristle, don't grumble, give a whistle. and this'll help things turn out for the best, And..."
Peter Whelan

Hi Evan,
I could not stop thinking about your naughty little spring. I checked my not yet assembled pressure group and I cannot image how a once assembled spring can get out from its position. Especially if this spring is still in one piece! Here is a thought: what if this is a spare one that has been dropped in the factory just down in the corner. Suppose all six ( three of each two different types) were put in place, so its performance will be OK. Could you check with some strong torch light if one of these springs is missing. Could be worthwile before taking the gearbox out.
Good luck, Huib Bruijstens Netherlands
Huib Bruijstens

Thanks guys.

Well, as of now, the car is still on jack stands. I replaced the oil sump, removed the seats, carpet, transmission cover, floorboards and finally the transmission. This is not a job I wish to ever do again! (knock wood.)

As far as the pressure plate goes, as soon as the transmission pulled away from the clutch/pressure plate, the retainer and other two springs dropped out. I am quite surprised the clutch worked well enough to get me home. I did notice the springs fit very loosely when I reassembled the unit, so I removed and tightened the springs. The transmission is back in now. I just need to re-install the interior. I might get it done today.

My best guess for what happened is: when I dropped the oil sump a few weeks back to change the pinch bolts I had to remove the clutch rods to allow the oil pan to clear the exhaust. When I put it back together I tightened the linkage adjuster back to where I thought it was, but I never did reset the pedal. So there was a small amount of slop in the system. Enough to allow the thing to come apart? Who knows.

My second theory is: I had the pressure plate balanced with the engine/flywheel. It's possible the machine shop removed the retainer and springs so they wouldn't fly off when the unit was on the balancer. They might have put them on backwards. It is easy to do, I did it the first time I put it back last night.

Either way, I hope it stays together now.

Also, my car turned 52 yesterday....

Evan Ford - TD 27621

Darn... missed my car's birthday... it was yesterday...(give or take a day i suppose).
gordon lawson - TD 27667

Second drive completed. 23 miles and no ugly noises!

I took a short break from the MG over the weekend, other than adding toggle switches under the dash for the clock, fuel pump and 4-way flashers. Today I hooked up the drive shaft and reinstalled the interior. After refilling the oil and priming the oil pump, the car fired up and ran fine. I took it around the block several times and then ventured a couple of miles away.

I even had several little boys in the neighborhood yell "cool car!"

Safety Fast!
Evan
Evan Ford - TD 27621

Evan,
So did you make "Brits not @ Easton Show" in Dublin last weekend?
I had to work....and still no car...but wonderinng if you made it.
Can't wait to see your "T" in the flesh...been following your post for quite some time!
David
David Sheward

David,

I missed the event. The recent MG work has kept me from my "Honey-do list" too long. I'm on a short leash for a few days. ;^)

I put 76 trouble free miles on the car yesterday. I even went about 15 miles away from the security of my garage! I'm trying to get up my nerve for my 80 mile round trip for the highway patrol inspection to fix my title. (My car was mis-titled using the engine number.)

Getting ready for a drive as I type...

Safety Fast!
Evan
Evan Ford - TD 27621

Hey Evan... hope you enjoy/enjoyed the 80 miles... what a treat?
I have Friday off and the weather is supposed to be perfect...am looking for an 80 mile drive?
gordon lawson - TD 27667

Evan,
I've been sitting here in the background keeping up with this thread as well as the others, mostly on a daily basis.
My ears perked up when you mentioned taking a trip to motor vehicles to have your title corrected. Mine too listed the engine number as the VIN. Here in Delaware everything is handled out of one building. I spent two days doing the process.
First to get it state inspected, first shot through the lanes. Go into the building to do the paperwork. Back through the lanes for the state police to do a vehicle thief check. Back into the building, more paperwork. Then one more trip through the lanes to correct the paperwork showing the TD wasn't on a hot sheet, back inside for my tags..
Here you can purchase one or two year tags, meaning the vehicle will go through inspection before new tags are issued. Well, after all of this I just "antiqued" the car, meaning it will NEVER have to go back again..
Good luck to ya..Hope your state has a little different procedure.
Lee
Lee

Lee,

I got lucky on my car. I decided not to correct the number using our highway patrol. When I called them, they said they would correct it by aproving a salvage title. Since this would hurt the value of my car, I decided to title it under the engine number. I figured I could get the new title corrected after the fact.

So, this morning I went to the local BMV office (which shares a building with the title office). I had to pay $3.50 for a girl to walk outside and look at my number plate to match the old Illinois title. By the way, the girl really liked the car.

Next, I went to the title office. The 3 ladies working there were obviously very bored and there was nobody in line. I asked the lady that waited on me how she thought I should proceed. She asked if she could see the ID plate. So, we went outside and I showed her the plate and the number stamped in the dumb iron. She said she wanted to make a pencil tracing of the number, and then said she didn't see why she couldn't fix the title for me. I paid $10.00 plus my sales tax on the original purchase and walked out with my correct title. By the way, the lady really liked the car.

Next, I went back to the BMV to register the car and my 1953 plate. The girl that waited on me was a cute 20 something. She asked me what type of car a 1953 MG was. I pointed out the window and showed her the car. She said, "I love those cars! I am going to have one someday!" I thought to myself, yeah - right, like she knows what kind of car that is. Then she said, "Is that the kind of car from the movie Funny Farm?" I couldn't believe it. Maybe whe will have one someday. Anyway, I paid $22.75 and got my plate registered. The best part is... the registration is good until 2050!

Did I mention, Chicks dig the car?

Safety Fast!
Evan
Evan Ford - TD 27621

Congrats Evan on your turn of good luck.

However, a true T series enthusiast would have taken the young lady to task, explaining that the car in "Funny Farm" is actually a TF, not a TD like yours, and then you could have gone into a half hour dissertation on the differences between the two, the history of MG and maybe a few minutes on production numbers, engine types, body construction, original vs. repro, etc. Really straighten her out. Sorta like a club meeting.

Well, maybe when you renew.

One of my favorite movies BTW. The first ten minutes are particularly inspiring to those of us with a pile of parts in the garage. Imagine, a T series MG actually moving under it's own power. Wow.
Peter Whelan

Was just told the other day that Ontario "Year of Manufacture" licence plates have gone from $10.00 to $249.00... man... we get it coming and going...
gordon lawson - TD 27667

Peter,

You caught me! I actually started down the TD-TF change over path, but her eyes quickly glazed over. I decided to quit while ahead...
When I go back in 2050, I'll make sure she's aware of how the changes to the TF went straight from idea to sheet metal. Maybe she'll be mature enough to appreciate the differences in 45 years...

At least she didn't ask if it was a kit. ;^)

How about the movie "Two for the road?" Besides having Audrey Hepburn, there is good TD footage. (At least until they burn the car... I turn it off before that.)

Gordon,

How often do you have to renew at $249? Ouch!

Cheers,
Evan
Evan Ford - TD 27621

That is a one time fee, then they become regular plates and a renewal sticker each year is $64.00. There are a few of us in the club that got the change over ownership for $10.00. We think it was the Vanity plate buyers who complained that the price was too low for what was sort of a vanity plate. What??? me, vain???? Anal maybe, but vain, never! (but gee my TD is the nicest looking one i have ever seen...ahhh the patina!!!!)
gordon lawson - TD 27667

This thread was discussed between 12/05/2005 and 20/05/2005

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