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MG TD TF 1500 - Hand starter (crank) 101

Am unable to start 1953 TD27438 after 3 weeks absence. Have headlights/sidelights but only 1 click from fuel pump and one weak sound from starter followed by the sound of rushing air. Tried rocking the car in gear as well. Checked manual for instruction on use of crank but no help. Archives talk about length and difference between TD and TC cranks, but no discussion on how to use it... Assume it turns clockwise and that it somehow disengages when the engine starts. I have never used one and it seems somewhat dangerous if not used correctly. Any basic hints would be appreciated. Incidentally, the car ran fine before I left and it is about 60 here in southern South Carolina.

As usual, many thanks for your thoughts.

Sam Franklin

S.W. Franklin

Sam, I think the crank is best used to turn the engine to adjust the valves. Pretty useless to use to start, and you may chip the bumper chrome. The prdoblems with cranks is that if it mis-fires and spins backwards it will break your wrist. There were at one point shims available to vary the postition of the drive do in the end of the crank, so you would be in the best postition to crank against the compression stroke and avoid broken bones. Put a volt meter on the battery and check it, with and without load, or try jumping off. George
George Butz

Push starting a "T" is very easy...and safer than the crank! Shouldn't take much effort ...key on, 2nd gear and a little push. If it fires up that way you can then start looking for the problem. (low bat, starter?) if it doesn't fire "bump" starting then check fuel pump and spark.
Let us know how you get along.
David Sheward

Should be drive "drive dog". New keyboard drives me nuts!
George Butz

Many years ago I use to work on my neighbors Model T's and have used the hand crank to start them many times and it even though it is a pretty simple it takes a little practice. I am with George; the crank might mess up the bumper or worst bend it once you start jerking on the crank but if you do decide to try hand cranking do not wrap your thumb around the crank handle. Put your thumb up on top of the handle with the rest of your finges and if you get a back fire the handle will just pop out of your hand and not take your thumb with it.

Regards,
Rich
Richard Taylor

I have been told that the first thing to know is that you do NOT wrap your hand around the handle as if it were a screwdriver. ALWAYS keep your thumb tucked to the side of the hand on the same side of the handle as the rest of the fingers. This will help avoid broken thumbs.

The crank should be positioned so as to be able to pull it sharply upwards a quarter of a turn or so. You do NOT want to try cranking it around and around, that would also invite disaster.

The drive dog is made to eject the handle on over-run so as not to be able to drive the handle with the motor. That does not mean that it always works that way.

I agree with George that it would probably be safer for you to push-start it if you have experience at that.
David "at least it wasn't dog do" Lieb
David Lieb

Properly used, the starting handle should work like a charm - I used my TD's crank every day from 1971 to 1973, as a grad student too poor to afford a new starter!

Since your fuel pump ticked I assume you have fuel in the carbs. PUT THE CAR IN NEUTRAL with the handbrake firmly on. Pull out the choke as you normally would do (your choke should stay out if you turn it CCW).Engage the crank and turn it slowly until it is resistant at the 8 o'clock position. Turn on the key. Grasp the handle so that your thumb is pointing to the radiator, NOT wrapped over your fingers (this is so if the car kicks back, the crank handle will pull out of your hand - but a properly tuned car shouldn't kick back). Pull straight up sharply, and the car should start. If not, repeat - you won't hurt a thing by continuing to try. When it starts, return the starting handle to the clips, then drive for a while to charge up the battery. Then have the battery properly checked out.

Hope this helps.

Tom TB, TD, TD/C, TF, TF1500
t lange

Tom is absolutely correct in the procedure he outlines for starting the engine with the crank. When we first got our TD in 74, we didn't have a lot of money to get things fixed, so the fixing fell to me. The TD was my wife's everyday vehicle to transport kids, get the groceries, all the things a young mother has to do, so when the starter gave out and needed repair, she learned real fast, how to start the car using the starting handle and continued to drive the car during the t weeks it took me to get the parts and overhaul the starter. Being somewhat of a ham, my wife would make a big deal of getting the starting handle out, inserting it through the bumper and into the drive dog, turn the handle to the 8 o'clock position, walk around and insert the key and turn the ignition on, then walk back and give the handle a quick jerk, remove and stow the handle in place, get into the driver's seat, smile at the gathered onlookers and drive off quite briskly. She always laughed that young men would volunteer to do it for her (even though they knew nothing about starting a car with a crank), but old men would have nothing to do with it (they had already done their turn in the barrel and saw no reason to revisit it. Cheers - Dave
David DuBois

i did not see it mentioned, so if it is not in these posts..set the hand brake firmly. regards, tom
tom peterson

I have had to crank start my TD on a number of occasions. Normally only takes one or two tries. Do be careful,and it will leave marks on the crank.
BEC Cunha

Gentlemen....Thanks so much for your timely and helpful comments. I have printed out this thread and stored it in my glovebox for future reference. In the archives this information will be helpful to others who may raise the same question. Because it is pouring rain here today, I'll wait for better weather to try the crank or push start. Judging from the looks of my rear bumper, a PO has run into this problem before and decided to go for the push start option! I especially appreciate your collective detailed instructions on the use of the crank, and to David Dubois...I enjoyed the story of your wife's experience...it's a confidence builder. Stay tuned for further developments. Best wishes to all.

Sam Franklin
S.W. Franklin

I'd be a bit worried about "but only 1 click from fuel pump", since you are not going to start it either with crank or push if there's no fuel in the carbs. Suggest figuring out the problem with the power first.

FRM
FR Millmore

Sam,
Do be carefull with the crank start. If your not familuar with just how a compression stroke can "kick back" you could be injured! We don't want that.
"somehow disengages when the engine starts" is NOT always the case either! I know this as I left mine in once at a car show ...when I started the car it made several revolutions before dissengaging..and some nastie sounds!
Bump start is easy and safe...try that first. I also am a little concerned about the "single click" from your fuel pump...really sounds like a battery/power or fuel pump problem. (but you say lights are full on?) Do they dimm when starter engages?
David Sheward

"and to David Dubois...I enjoyed the story of your wife's experience...it's a confidence builder."

As a further to that, I was the co-chairman for GoF West 77, put on in Olympia Washington. As part of the funkana, we had a point where the driver had to kill the engine and then restart it with the hand crank. For the great majority of participants, this was the first time they had ever started their car with the hand crank. Everybody succeeded in getting their cars restarted (except for Al Moss, who rode his horse through the funkana - ever see a horse get its tail cranked?) and nobody wound up with a broke wrist or getting kicked by a very patient horse.

I also agree with Fletcher, the single click of the fuel pump should be looked into before trying to start the car. See the article, Fuel Delivery Troubleshooting Guide in the SU Fuel Pump Articles section of my web site at: http://homepages.donobi.net/sufuelpumps/ Cheers - Dave
David DuBois

perhaps i am misreading..but the reference to evidence on the bumper of a push start..this car is so little and light, the couple times i push started...i just pushed it..i didn't use another vehicle. are other people using another vehicle??? regards, tom
tom peterson

Reference one or two comments on jump-starting - I recall some suggestions that it was not advisible with TDs because doing so was liable to snap the frequently fragile original half-shafts. There's one or two threads to this effect, hidden in the archives, but I can't find them ATM.

I've always avoided bump-starting since reading that - was I mistaken to do so?

- Tom.
Tom Bennett

Tom B -
That's silly. Bump starting is no harder on the halfshafts than a few downshifts, and if the shaft is going to break on a start, it's going to break soon anyway. Better at home!

FRM
FR Millmore

To David Sheward...Indeed, the headlights go DIM when starter is engaged. Battery is 6 years old so doesn't owe me anything. Off to archives to look up "Batteries". Thanks for the suggestion. As to your experience with the crank not disengaging when the engine started...scary imageo of a crank turning at 1000RPM!
To Tom Peterson...I didn't realize it was possible to push start a TD by hand. The dents in my rear bumper suggest someone tried to use a different method!
To Tom Bennett....I will await further comments about the possibility of snapping a half shaft while push starting.
Thanks again to all for your collective suggestions/comments.

Sam
S.W. Franklin

I had my hand-crank stolen in Gatlinburg.

Anybody got a spare they'd like to sell me?

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.
Gordon A Clark

At tech sessions we have had contests for starting with hand crank on one turn. Lots of fun

Ellis
Ellis Carlton

I forgot about the poor staving student deal. Crank would be fine then! Guess I have been missing out. Sounds like time for a new battery for sure. George
George Butz

FR Millmore wrote: "That's silly. Bump starting is no harder on the halfshafts than a few downshifts" <snip>

Good to hear. Misconception debunked.

- Tom.
Tom Bennett

This thread was discussed between 29/01/2010 and 01/02/2010

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