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MG TD TF 1500 - High power LED thread

As LEDs are back on the bulletin board and being discussed, I thought I would put together a thread which might allow people to build their own high power LED lights for themselves. I'm going to start with a brief description, and if I get time, I'll add pictures.

I've made a few LEDs for people here but I'm not really interested in making a business of it - too much other stuff to do. So I'm going to give you the tools to do this yourself.

1. Go to www.ledsupply.com. You can buy all equipment you need here.
2. You will need a good soldering iron, preferably a Weller "station" in the $100 range is a good investment.

A Luxeon 3-up Endor Star in either amber or red is the basic building block, coupled with a "bucktoot" "buckdriver" which outputs the constant current that the LED must have to operate. A 350ma bucktoot is all you need, but you will need two for each LED.

You will need to desolder one of the two jumpers on the star. Be VERY careful as you can destroy these pretty easily. You will be desoldering the jumper on the top LEFT of the picture I have attached. Any questions, just search google, there are plenty of DIY pages showing how to solder and desolder.

You then need to solder two bucktoots to the star. One lead of the first bucktoot will use the minus junction of the jumper you just desoldered, and the other lead will go to the plus junction on the other circuit that does NOT have a jumper. The second bucktoot will use the remaining two junctions. The wiring is pretty self evident on the bucktoots and is normally marked.

You will need a heatsink. I take a normal heatsink brick about 1.5x1.5 inches and cut it into four sections, each will adequately heatsink one star.

Build a bracket to fit your application. For my rectangular MG rear lamp I just took an aluminum bar about 3/4 of an inch wide and 1/8 thick and bent it into a triangular form and drilled a hole in either side. A side view of it would look something like this:

__/__

with the bolts passing through the two flat sides.

The two holes allow the normal mounting to the existing bolts and the bent section allows the star to lie perpendicular so that it is oriented correctly for maximum light output and efficiently.

Then you need to wire the two bucktoots to the existing wiring. For a negative ground, you would wire the two negative wires off the bucktoots to your ground wire, and the other two wires to the remaining bulb wires. You can choose whether you want one LED die to light for running and two LED dies for brake/turn (my recommendation) or the other way around.

Use the electrical epoxy sold by www.ledsupply.com to epoxy the star to the mount, and epoxy the heatsink to the rear of the mount just underneath the star.


Good luck!

PS, more research will find you other possible flavors of LED and even brighter lights, if you want them. But the brighter you get the more you have to protect the LED from overheating, which means that the ultra high power ones coming onto the market (ledengin has LEDs in the 40 watt range producing over 1000 lumens!) actually require non-passive heat management, meaning fans and motors.

You can use 700ma drivers, which will nearly double the light output (TOO MUCH in my opinion) but they are slightly larger and may pose problems fitting into the small space available in MT taillamps...




Geoff Baker

Here's the picture of the Endor Star 3 die LED. The jumper on the top LEFT must be desoldered.


Geoff Baker

Thanks for posting this Geoff.
Gene Gillam

Geoff, thanks for this interesting and above all challenging thread.
Would love to see the pictures as you mentioned because this is quite a new area for me.
So, do I understand correctly that this device has three lED light sources whereas the one shown in the other thread has a hole array?
Greetings, Huib
Huib Bruijstens

Hi Huib, Yes, this method uses three LEDs mounted on a single die, one of the most powerful LED systems available. These are surface mount high power LEDs generating 105 (or 195 at 700ma!) lumen per die. To compare, a standard single non SMT (Surface Mount Technology) red LED (which are packed into arrays to create lamps) with a 20 degree beam pattern generates 0.9 lumens (this is approximate, and there are LEDs with a wide variety of beam patterns). Therefore, you would need 115 of the regular LEDs to match the light output of just one of these LEDs I am using.

This is why, typically no plug in LED taillamp (which have anywhere from about 12 to over 50 LEDs on them) equal the brightness of your average incandescent, let alone a true high power LED system.

Bottom line, so far the cheaper LED systems available just can't pack enough regular LEDs onto a board to put out as much light as a modern car's taillights.

I have found that the LED unit I use is ideally suited to the size of an MG taillamp. I really don't think you could ever pack enough lower power LEDs into that space to put out the light we all want for safety...

It's all relative. I was looking at a new Lexus and realized that its taillamp areas were probably eight or ten times larger than our old MGs, including the 3rd brake lamp. As the lights are brighter, the lights are colored (the LEDs on modern cars are the correct wavelength to pass optimally through the colored lenses) and the lamp housings are much bigger and more reflective AND more focussed, the result is a modern car is MUCH more visible than one of our old cars in terms of safety lighting. My LED system is an attempt to match a modern cars, but it probably STILL isn't as bright as a new car using well-engineered mirror surfaces, brighter lights and more efficient lighting design!

A word regarding heat. High power surface mount LEDs require heat sinking because on the board itself, the tiny space occupied by the LED gets hot and this must be dissipated to avoid melting the solder joints or damaging the LED. But it is still FAR less heat overall than a standard incandescent puts out, and the entire unit runs much cooler than an incandescent. It is just important to wick heat away from the LED surface which is less than a tenth of an inch square... so a heat sink is required, but the output of heat is less than a standard bulb.



Geoff Baker

Hello Geoff, you really made me interested. Some more questions from a mechanical guy: what is:
- bucktoot
- buckdriver
- jumper
I will look for LED part suppliers in my country.
Greetings, Huib
Huib Bruijstens

"This is why, typically no plug in LED taillamp (which have anywhere from about 12 to over 50 LEDs on them) equal the brightness of your average incandescent, let alone a true high power LED system."

Geoff, then why, when we install an LED replacement system, even as simple as the one that is available from BMC British Automobile with 44 LEDs, do we preceive so much more light than from an 1157 (incandescent) bulb source? The ones I installed are certainly much brighter than incandescent to my eye.

What would be the best way to measure the output in a way that would be an apples to apples comparision?

Thanks,

Dave
Dave Braun

Geoff - Have you seen the 1157 replacement tower bulbs using SMD LEDs here: http://www.superbrightleds.com/cgi-bin/store/commerce.cgi?product=CAR. How would these do in comparison to what you are doing? Cheers - Dave
David DuBois

Huib, a "buckdriver" is an LED driver that offers constant current (rather than constant voltage). These are NOT necessary for lower power LEDs typically, but are essential for all high power applications. "Bucktoot" is the commercial name for the smallest 350ma buckdriver on the market. A jumper is a connector (in this case soldered) that joins two junctions together.

Dave, I've built a variety of LED systems including ones with 73 lower power LEDs on a board. When you have enough of them, you will eventually match an incandescent's light output - if there is enough space! Now I haven't looked at every LED array on the market, so I can only tell you that all the ones I've looked at weren't as bright as the brightest incandescents on the market. The brightest LED arrays may well exceed that of OEM incandescents on a 52 MG, for instance, but probably won't match a new higher output incandescent, even halogen or xenon bulb. My rule of thumb is that nothing you can buy at Pep Boys in the LED rack is worth a darn. I have purchased 1157 bulbs with a variety of built in SMDs and have yet to find one brighter than what I am building. But it will eventually happen, of course; someone will build a plug in 1157 that puts out more! And when they do I'll probably buy a few :)

Regarding your query about "when we install an LED replacement system, even as simple as the one that is available from BMC British Automobile with 44 LEDs, do we preceive so much more light than from an 1157 (incandescent) bulb source?" The answer to that is I haven't personally tested the BMC so I can't comment, but there are so many factors to be balanced. Are you comparing it with an OEM bulb or a new high output modern incandescent? Is it as bright radially, or is most of the light in the center? What about the age of the bulb? A new 1157 incandescent can have a rating as high as 400 lumen yet that could be much lower after a few years ... bulbs speak of a 40% "design rating" which indicates that they expect output to drop to at least 40% of initial output over the life of a bulb! A new LED vs an old incandescent bulb would be a very unbalanced test.... but make the LED look great every time!

When I started doing my LED research two or three years ago, there was nothing I could find on the market that was as bright as incandescents. This may no longer be true. I believe that some of the SMD high power bulbs may now match or exceed an incandescent, as does mine; I was frankly surprised that the Zupp bulb was a mere 40 lumen on the running light circuit. I also know that the only 1157 SMD led bulbs I purchased to test both blew, but that was the fault of my ageing motorcycle lamp housing, not the bulb.

There are so many factors to be considered that this could fill volumes, so I'll end by saying that the 44LED BMC bulb, if it is using higher power LEDs (and there are both high and low power old style LEDs as well as "high power SMDs" and "high power" dies like mine... the term "high power is being WAY overused here) in an array, MAY match or even exceed a standard bulb, especially if it is an OLD bulb.

When you consider that LEDs now range from less than half a lumen to over 1000 lumens... there are a lot of variables to play with...
Geoff Baker


Here is a list of LED related links.

www.ledsupply.com ...LED Supply.com

www.customdynamics.com Lots of LEDs mostly for motorcycle applications

www.bikeled.org DIY LED bike lights

www.instructables.com/id/High_power_LED_bike_head_light_with_integrated_hea High power LED bike head light with integrated heat sink

www.ledengin.com/index.html LedEngin, Inc the bleeding edge of high power LEDs


www.ayup.com.au/specs.php Lights designed for mountain-biking

www.radianheatsinks.com Radian Heat Sinks

www.laminalighting.com/ProductsandSolutions/ProductsandSolutions/TitanSeries/TitanSeriesLEDLightingSystem.aspx Titan Series LED Lighting System


www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=186982 Ultimate LED guide - & buckpucks

www.dealextreme.com A source for LED materials
Geoff Baker

All I can say is WOW. Thanks!
Dave Braun

Dave Dubois, I've looked at www.superbrightleds.com for a long time now (don't know why I didn't put them on my info list :) ). I believe on the page you gave me the very brightest bulb they have in an 1156/1157 housing is the 1157-x3X1W which is 3.9 watt ... (remember, "watts" is a useless, meaningless rating) these are actually built using the same type of surface mount devices I use, probably by the same manufacturer, Luxeon. However, if they are Luxeons, they are the older Luxeon Is, not the Vs I use so they are less powerful. For a brief while, they had a "5 watt" version which I purchased which blew on me. Since then, they have removed the 5 watts from the market - I assume because of poor design or engineering issues.

Nothing else on that page is as bright. And the problem with the bright ones is that they all have restricted beam patterns (90-120 degrees mostly) wheras you definitely want more than that.

I have used a variety of superbrightleds products on my car and motorbike, for dashboard and indicator light LED bulbs.

A british company, http://www.ultraleds.co.uk/ has even more powerful 1157 LEDs (4 "watt") but again they look like they must suffer from a poor beam pattern (120 degrees).

The ones using a LOT of LEDs have radial problems too; the ones that are tall and have a lot of SMDs on the long side will be quite bright when viewed from the side, but they have only a few SMDs pointing back, so they will be dimmest when seen directly from the rear - which you don't want.

I chose to use Luxeon Endor stars for many reasons. They are true high power LEDs; they have a 170 degree beam pattern; and they allow two circuits to be run off a single die. I still recommend these as my #1 choice for any DIY people with a good soldering iron and a steady hand!

But I'm really waiting for LedEngins latest LED products, the LZC and LZP series. These are not yet available in red or amber but run (in white) from 1500 to an amazing 5400 lumen. Red/Amber versions tend to only produce about half (or less) the lumen of white, so expect the red/amber versions to be 400 lumen and up.

5400 lumen, by the way, is about 3-4 brighter than your average auto headlamp, and considerably brighter than the brightest xenon high intensity discharge (HID) headlamps you can buy!



Geoff Baker

Geoff,
Inspite of a lot of googling around to find dutch or at least european suppliers for these Luxeon 3-up Endor Star, it is hard to find them.
I know that ledsupply.com has them on the list as you mentioned. However, on the Philips Lumiled sites (they own the brand Luxeon) I cannot find this product 3-up endor star.
On a German site (www.led.de) is mentioned that the Luxeon product range has been stronly reduced. And in their list of power LEDS brand Luxeon, there is no 3-up in red.
The reason for looking for a european vendor is that buying in USA fromn here involves an expensive delivery and customs who all take their share too generously.
greetings, huib
Huib Bruijstens

I was doing just fine, 'till I realized that to achieve brightness greater than a standard 1157 on a TF, means multiple-arrays of LEDs.

You guys with early TDs have more surface area and have the "Real Estate" for a virtual field of LEDs. Also you need some side-brightness. I think I counted 66 LEDs on Tom Maine's pic on the earlier thread for the square, TD1 rear lamp.

The TF on the other hand, being round, has some optical focusing in the (glass) lens so I can't see that beam angle is critical as any focused light will be diffused optically.

This would suggest that the design for the TD could be significantly different to the design for the TF .

Am I right?

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.
Gordon A Clark

Gordon, the round taillamps on the TF are definitely smaller than the TD meaning less area for LED arrays.
I've built high power LED units for these round taillamps, space is not a problem with high power LEDs. My design is identical except the bracket is different.

Huib, sorry but I have no information on LEDs in Europe. I've bought a few LEDs from england (either Maplin or ultraled.uk) but I cannot see any 3-up LEDs available in any search. Wish I could help you more!

Geoff Baker

Geoff, thanks for searching. I will keep doing this.
For me, there are two reasons to proceed: one is safety ( recently drove behind a TD and realized once again how poor the visibility of the taillights is at daytime ) and secondly, the curiosity about this for me complete new field of LED lighting. I am pretty familiar with incadecent and tube lighting and know how to install such devices in all their parts. But LED still is a black box. This tread is a wonderful opportunity to dig into and get some understanding.

Who else on this BBS wants to further explore and built an own set of LED's asdirected by Geoff??
Huib Bruijstens

Huib, if you find any red or amber high power LEDs commercially available in your market, feel free to contact me via email; I might be able to help you build a taillight using some other LED than the one that I use and install. There are alternatives, K2s and lumileds and ledengin designs, but some of these take up too much space and others are not yet available to the public.
Geoff Baker

Geoff,
I am still chasing those LEDs overhere and will continue doing so.
On april 25 you mentioned in the Tom Maines LED thread: "If you search on LED you will find threads where I discuss building high output LED units for the tail lamps".
I could not find other info from you on this BBS other than in Tom Maines thread and this one. Did you give more info on other threads and if so, where can i find them?

Question to all BBS mates: Who else on this BBS wants to further explore and built an own set of LED's as directed by Geoff??
Greetings, Huib
Huib Bruijstens

Hi Geoff,

Any chance you could provide a circuit diagram using the Endor Star 3 Die LED.

I have been doing some searches here in the UK for component parts but their websites do not recognise some of the terminology ie 'bucktooth' and 'buckdriver'

Thanks,

David.
David Tinker

David

The term "buck driver" (which is not commonly used over here) refers to a switching DC to DC converter or voltage regulator. Switching regulators are more efficient and so dissipate less power than linear types. Try searching RS Components (http://uk.rs-online.com) for those terms. The MC34063A is one example.

It would be good to see some circuits.

Dave
Dave Williams (TD10254)

Here is a simple diagram for the circuits.


Geoff Baker

Hi Geoff,

Thanks for posting the wiring diagram. It makes things much easier for us lesser electronic guys to complete a project.

All we have to do now is to source the parts,

Cheers,

David
David Tinker

Hi Geoff,

Many thanks for the wiring diagram.

I am still having difficulty in sourcing the components which you describe in you article.

Is it possible to produce a more comprenhensive specification on the parts used so that they could be sourced in the UK.

Thanks,

David
David Tinker

Huib,

I am interested in building up high power led rear lights for my 51 TD. I am currently searching through the online catalogue of RS Components and using 'Luxeon Endor 3 die LED' in the search box it does bring up similar components but not what I am looking for.

I will try searching other stockists here in the UK and will report back on any success.


Cheers, David
David Tinker

Dave, to my understanding the names used are somewhat complicated.
Endor Star is a productname for the device we are searching for.
It is assembled by a company called LEDdynamics and they use a kind of familyname for these products: LUXdrive.
The product has a lightsource and that is brought into a starshaped basis.
The lightsource is a Luxeon Rebel Emitter whereas Luxeon is a productname from a company called Lumileds.
And this company is owned by (dutch) Philips Electronics.
The Endor Star is at least offerd by the company Geoff has listed: Ledsupply.com
Also I keep searching for a dutch or european based supplier for such starshaped high power LEDS.
Greetings, Huib
Huib Bruijstens

There was a chap at MG 2011 in Reno, displaying in the Vendor's Room, a series of LED lighting for all British cars.

The attached picture will give you an idea. The (late) TD and TF are 2nd from the left.

I could not help but be impressed. They are extremely bright.

This is Stevee Kolseth, who, if I'm not mistaken, has been on our BB before. A set for the (late) TD/TF is $172. For more info, go to www.classicautoleds.com.

His motto ... "Better Seen than Sorry". I'm definitely putting a pair of these in my budget.

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.


Gordon A Clark

Gordon, the website you gave has no lumen information. but I suspect my LED design is probably as bright or brighter. And at $172 for the classicautoleds, my design is cheaper. (About $110 in parts if you do it yourself, or $150 plus shipping if I do it. All the info you need to do it yourself is on this thread).

Using my current 350ma system, I think my LEDs are probably brighter (105 lumen). But for only a few bucks more, you can move up to 190 lumen using 700ma drivers - but I think, frankly, that is TOO bright. (The 700 drivers are slightly bigger, but that's not a problem).

His design, like mine, requires removal of the bulb assembly and using screw junctions to attach to the existing wiring.

Finally - I prefer a single star high power design over a circuit board holding lots of small lower power LEDs. I think its cleaner and ultimately more durable.

Just my 2cents - I'm really not trying to sell a product here, I'm too busy to make this a business!

I agree with his motto: Better Seen than Sorry!
Geoff Baker

I had looked at doing my own lights(I've been building my own LED headlamps for cave exploration for >12 years) but I didn't want something that required I modify things. I wanted plug & play, but it appeared that wouldn't be straightforward to do without making my own PC board or doing a lot more work than I was really interested in doing.

After seeing the Litezupp reference in an earlier thread I ordered two of those and they work great even with my turn signals (I don't have a dash light) and they directly replace the 1157 bulb. And, it's < $60 for the pair including shipping.

They get two thumbs up from me!

Scott
Scott Linn

This thread was discussed between 25/04/2011 and 03/07/2011

MG TD TF 1500 index

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