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MG TD TF 1500 - It only took four miles...

Today I had the first real drive in "Tommy" my newly minted 1952 MG TD 15470. I say first real one because going up and down the driveway in the dark to see if the clutch is adjusted and the lights work doesn't count.

Oil pressure on start is 70 pounds and it idles at about 60 pounds when warm. The highest speed achieved so far is approximately 50 mph because frankly, I haven't adjusted the door latches yet, and I'm using PVC covered electrical wire between the windscreen stanchion and the exterior door handle as a safety device. I've not installed the interior, so there are a lot of rattles and buzzes that I don't recognize and will have to sort out. Temperature is about 75 F here today, and the car reached a steady 75 C.

Next activity is to take the GPS along (some flight test engineeer I must have been!) as I forgot it this time around and I want to compare the speed in gears with the new rear end (4.3:1).

With respect to "it only took four miles..." I went much further. I bought gas, went to the bank for cash, stopped at the post office and drove over to the hardware store for some grille parts (a barbeque, not the radiator type). The "it only took four miles..." was how many miles I went before someone walked up and asked (drum roll!) "Is that a kit car?"

warmly,
dave
Dave Braun

Dave -- Congrats on that first ride out in the wicked world. It's a wonderful feeling isn't it!!

I owned a TF1500 for over twenty years then in a weak moment sold it. Then went twenty years without a 'T' series. Finally secomed and bought a TD and worked seven years to get it restored. That first ride was a blast, a trip to the past, a nostalgic moment. I'll never forget the feeling. The sensation that you could put the car where you wanted it on the road and that it stuck to the road better than the painted stripes.

Cheers,

Bob
bobj50

Dave,
Congratulations! A little nerve racking I bet. And you had no one following you? Pretty gutsy. I can't wait for my maiden voyage in the TF.
Reminds me of the first time I had my previous TD out for a ride. I had a guy come up to me and say "wow a real one".
Good luck and thanks for all the input you have provided to this site.

Dan H.

Dan Hanson

Congratulations Dave on your madeon Voyage. Well done in every aspect.

LaVerne
LED DOWNEY

CONGRATS DAVE. KEEP 'ER GOING.
Jim Merz

Wish we all could have been there... It only gets better!!!!
gblawson(gordon)

Whenever someone asks me "is that a kit car"?, my response is ... "why didn't you first ask me if that's a real MG"??

And that, is usually the end of the conversation!

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.

Gordon A. Clark

An update... I have now driven the car about 20 miles and have received a second "Is that a kit car?" Could be a new record. A 64 Corvette pulled up next to me at NAPA, we compared notes, being only 12 years apart in manufacture... but those are big years.

The speedometer appears to read high compared to the GPS. I may decide to take it in for a recalibration after the season is over. Also, the tachometer is turning fast too. I'm getting about 16.12 mph per 1000 rpm by GPS instead of the expected 17.16 mph per 1000 rpm in top gear.

Running around was fun. My door striker plates are shipping, and I picked up sound deadener for the tub (I decided against the expensive Dynamat Extreme, and bought something that is a batting between two foil sheets). I also picked up the polyester batting for under the upholstery where appropriate. I don't want it to be too plush, I like a flatter appearence. This batting can even be separated in layers to yeild a thinner bat. It will be under my upholstry chapter.

Here is a Maiden Voyage day picture. Thanks for all the support and well wishes. So many of my questions were answered here, both ones I posed, ones others posed that drew my interest, and ones which caused me to research something and learn more about these important automotive artifacts we love. Thanks. I owe each of you a lot.

warmly,
dave


Dave Braun

Congrats Dave, a beaut! Having only been on the Forum for 2 years, I've waited almost as impatiently as you for this day to come. Can't thank you enough for your tremendous documentation photos, support and info. Enjoy!!!

Cheers

Larry
L Karpman

Dave, I think you need some VW hubcaps for that kit car. Or maybe NAPA is running a sale on those cute wires. Sorry, enough ribbing...it looks great, sure is motivating to actually run her, I'll bet!
Tom

I guess you really have to say it is a kit..kinda like that kit you build a schooner in a gallon jug, not the kind where you undo 20 bolts and switch bodies.
Tom

Interesting... i've only had people come over to take a look and say 'Oh my God...its a real one" Must be the British influence up here?
gblawson(gordon)

Dave; Add my congrats to the growing stack. I daresay no TD restoration has ever been as well documented or as helpful to so many as the rebirth of "Tommy".
Does Minnesota sell personalized license? Maybe a tag with NTAKIT or TRUEMG or even REAL1 might help. Or perhaps you are destined to continue educating the masses on the pride of the Octagon? Anyway,we raise a glass to you and yours - Hang in there Dan Craig
D.R. Craig

Many Congratulations! The kit...I mean, TD looks great! Many happy miles to you. And, by the way, you are going to love the 4.3 rear. It the most satisfying change that I could have made on my TD. Although I feel very vulnerable, it is great to easily cruise along with traffic at 60 mph whilst turning a quiet 3500 rpms! Where it really shines is at more moderate speeds. At 45-50 or so it is just loafing along.
Steve Tobias

Hi Dave: Beautiful restoration, congratulations and many sunny days to enjoy.

Best wishes,


Stuart
Stuart J. Ramos

Must be a Minnesota thing. Recently been seeing a TD kit car for sale on my way into work each day.
Some day I'll get to do some partial fixups using your and others tribal knowledge!
Randy
R Biallas

Hi Dave,

Well done on both your TD's detailed,glorious restoration and the most significant assistance you have given to fellow TD/TFers over the years.Congratulations.

You know possibly won't be woken in the middle of the night thinking about the method of 'attack' on this part and that !!

Rob Grantham
TF3719("Aramis"),TF9177("Athos").
Rob Grantham

Make that,"You now possibly....."
Rob Grantham

I have to honestly say that I really don't mind the kit car comments... and I think I know why I'm getting them now instead of 'before'. 'Before' the car was tired, old, worn out, etc. It looked like a sports car from the 50s which was rode hard and put a way wet. 'Now' the car is clean, smooth, bright, almost new looking, and I think it confuses people. It's 'old' but 'new' and therefore must be a kit. I think Tom hit it pretty accurately when he said that "it is a kit..kinda like that kit you build a schooner in a gallon jug, not the kind where you undo 20 bolts and switch bodies."

It is exactly that, a restoration is a series of restorations using existing and procured parts, until the whole is achieved. An alltogether rewarding experience none the less.

I think in the future, I'll take the "Is that a kit?" as a complement.

Gordon, Dan, Steve, Dr. Stuart, Randy, Rob, to each of you whom I've met, or only know 'on-line' your comments and well wishes are appreciated. It is funny how people from far away can seem more like true neighbors than those who are next door...

Tommy and I have some big plans for this week. I'll let you know how we are doing next Tuesday. In the meantime, a friend here in Minnesota needs his instrument panel wiring completed, and I'm helping.

warmly,
dave
Dave Braun

Dave,

My congratulations also. You've offered me some very salient advice on a number of occasions - and not just on T series cars. In Tommy we can see and share in the beautiful result that comes from the application of your own advice!

As for the "kit car" label (or is it "Kit Kar"?), we must remember that the new generation of 21st-century car guys have no idea of what an MG is, they only know of "kit cars" - which are based on some unknown prehistoric relic. They can't ask "Is that a real MG?" because they've never heard of one. How many of us have told others our car is an MG only to have them ask "OK but who makes it? Is it really made by GM?" or "Wow, what times does it turn at the drag strip?".

As stewards we have a lot of educating to do. Interesting, fun-to-drive, period sportscars don't have to be fast to be thrilling. It does help that they FEEL fast! Some of us need to establish an MG driving school for high school kids. If these kids had a chance to throw a TD around on a closed course (under supervision!) after school, I'll bet there would be thousands of these kids googling "MG".

' Wonder how many drug habits would be sniffed out before they got started...

FWIW,
Allen
Allen Bachelder

I think there was a firm in Minnesota called Fiberfab that was making kit car bodies of all sorts, TD included. The Avenger was a Ford GT40 copy, if I remember right.
Tom

http://www.fiberfab.us/history.html

http://www.avenger-valkyrie.org/
gblawson(gordon)

Hello Dave,
Congratulations! You certainly must have enjoyed every single inch of that trip. And I love that piece of electrical wire. Groetjes, Huib
Huib Bruijstens

Gordon,

Heartwarming story there. Sometimes, getting to know a little bit about the people involved can really change one's perception. I'll never look at "Kit cars" quite the same again.

Here's another one I like. Look what the rebodying does for the MGB! http://www.calace.com/

Allen
Allen Bachelder

Dave- congtatulations! Looks great- can't wait to see photos of it totally finished. Been there with the kit car comments, just have to smile and say no, it's real and move on. George
George Butz

Congratulations, Dave - Tommy looks great!

Cliff
C A Schnell

dave, congratulations and thanks for all you have done for the people on the forum. regards, tom
tom peterson

I get it all the time in the '49 TC because of all those horrible MiGi kits. Heck, someone even asked the kit car question just last week when I was driving the Model T truck! That one was completely unexpected.
Steve Simmons

Dave,

Great job on Tommy! Glad to see him running.

I get the kit comments about twice each year. I usually get about 5-6 people who know what the car really is to each kit comment.

To make matters worse, I know a guy with a kit and he tells people it is a MG!

Cheers,
Evan
Evan Ford

Dave:

Congratulations on getting "Tommy" to the point whjere he motor-vates again! Having done one, and getting close on second one "Winston" to the point of a rolling chassis, I hope you are savoring the superb results of your efforts.

We ALL owe you a large debt of gratitude for your great Web site, which documents your painstaking work along the way!

ENJOY!

Jeff
Jeff Brown

"I know a guy with a kit and he tells people it is a MG!"

Guys like that are the reason so many of us hate kit cars. When you represent a VW with a fiberglass body and plywood dash as a vintage T-Series M.G., it cheapens the real ones tremendously.
Steve Simmons

Thank you. I took Tommy on an extended drive today and tried out higher speeds. I did set up the door latches and the silent block catches first. I needed quite a few washers to move the latch to the front door post where the catch is. The door panel will take care of some of those shims.

The speedometer is most accurate at 30 and 60 mph according to the GPS. I thought it was jumpy so I applied powdered graphite to the cable, the jumps are still there. The piezo buzzer I'm using in lieu of a turn signal panel light is almost annoying. Think of a garbage truck backing up, and you have the right idea. I stuck a piece of masking tape over the pressure hole which made it too quiet. Finally I moved the buzzer higher under the dash, which helps. Interestingly, I can see the red dots flash even in bright daylight. And with the pneumatic TS switch, it can't stay flashing, so maybe I'll add a cut out switch to the buzzer, or remove it from the circuit all together.

I did a sustained run on the Freeway in heavy traffic, and kept the speed at 62 MPH, and had bursts to 65 (GPS) the car ran at 83 C and the oil pressure dropped to about 55 psi while running hard. When I let off the throttle the oil pressure 'buzzed' blurring the needle. I've never seen that before. I am getting a bit of vapor lock on hot start up, but choke clears it in less than half a minute. I think the fuels are just not as good as when first started driving this car.

The head lamps are aimed by placing tape on the wall well in front of the car, at the height and spread of the headlamps. First I found the centerline of the car and transfered that to the wall. My lights are 32 inches off the floor and 14 inches off the centerline. I put the center of the main beams on the tape. The dipped beams go down and to the right (curb here in the colonies).

I drove about 60 miles today. The gearbox is still a bit buzzy and the anti rattle equipment on the remote control doesn't anti any rattles. I didn't think I needed to rebush the control, perhaps I need to rethink that. I think Tommy is running a tad rich, so tomorrow I may go up one flat on each carb jet. No one asked if he was a kit car today but I got a lot of thumbs up and excited waves from the urban kids in the city.

Tomorrow is paint touch up day, and then the interior goes in. Hurray!

warmly,
dave
Dave Braun

Hi Dave , I can just imagine how you must feel after such a long time away from the wheel. I also offer my congradulations on a great looking MG. I showed my wife the picture of your car and she gave a bit of a gasp. She had one exactly like it, in the early 50's. I have a few questions for you. What needles do you have in the carbs, and when you say you are going to go "up one flat," how many flats are you down from the top? Do you recall what RPM you were turning at 62 mph? I recall your thread concerning tires and I believe you ended up getting Michelins. What size did you end up with and did you have any issues with them on your run at 62mph. From here on you are going to be busy, fine tuning the car to the level you will want. I'm sure you are going to have a lot of fun this fall.
George Raham
TD 4224
G. L. Raham

Hello George,

I'm glad the paint and interior scheme gave your wife some pleasant memories. Say hi to her for me! Evan Ford on the BBS has done one just like it, and there is another car locally here that used the same scheme.

I have ES needles in my car, our altitude here is about 900 feet. Right now I should be four flats down, if memory serves. I can report more on that later. I know my float level in the float bowls and thus in the bridge are right.

At 62 mph I was turning 3800 rpm, I believe my tachometer is turning about 5% fast, which I may rectify with the vendor. With the 4.3:1 CWP I should be about 17.16 mph for each 1000 rpm, but I'm showing more like 16.3. The speed is on my GPS, and so the Tach is the only real variable save for tire diameter, which is close to stock.

I did not go with the Michelins, I can't even spell Michelin. I bought a tire called "Ultra Metric" it is a Goodyear house brand I believe, and they are sized for VW beetles and the like. 165R15, no aspect ratio provided, but they measure out to be 78%. They are quite popular with the people here in our club who want an inexpensive, good performing tire. Everyone runs them without tubes. The ride was rock steady, even though I think I need some fork oil in my shocks. Amazingly, the car tracks perfectly straight, the little rubber nibs from the injection process are wearing evenly, and the steering wheel rests straight ahead. I was careful about the alignment, but I expected to have to tweak something! I learned a lot about my alignment just pushing the car around the shop and noting the dust pattern on the tread. It pays not to have that white epoxy floor I've been dreaming about! One of the things I had to do was add shims under one shock in the front. It's all on the website under 'suspension system'.

I plan on having a lot of fun this fall! Thanks for the encouragement.

warm regards,
dave
Dave Braun

Small update. I drove in some hot weather, high speeed (between 65 and 71 mph, gps) and saw 90 C on the temp gauge. Idle oil pressure was 30 psi, and running was about 55 psi in the heat.

I installed most of the interior, including the thermal sound mat (not dynamat, but I considered it) and I'm amazed at how much quieter my car is. I used the padding with foil on both sides EVERYWHERE I could think of, including over the wheel arches. Suprise, when I went to install the side curtain door, it was 1/2 too wide. The sound deadening material doesn't give like foam or batting, so the extra material on the wheel wells was the problem. I just opened one side of the completed panel, cut off a half inch, and reclosed it making even nicer material joins.

I also dropped some screws for the gear box tunnel down into the brake box. I tried a magnet, but only succeded in pulling out the speed clip for the clutch pedal. That made necessary a trip under the car to repair the damage and fetch the missing screws. I remembered why we all hate the brake box so much... until I installed the top of the side curtain box BEFORE I installed the funny angled door stops for the box. Holy cow, a new horrible job on the TD. The nut plates for the door stops drop down, and you have to be able to vertically raise the side stops to install the screws through the fenders. Having 1/4 inch more on the wheel arches from the new sound deadner didn't help.

But all is well. Tommy seems very happy with all the attention I've lavished upon him.

warmly,
dave
Dave Braun

My TF has done 39 000km and today (first drive in 10 days) overheated- spluttering noise from engine with gusts of steam). I refilled the water reservoir after starting the engine, and the water bubbled excessively. A interested (mechanic) spectator said that this was an indicator of a failed head gasket. (Temp gauge also up in the red). I drove 1 mile home- now two questions arise:
1. How will I know if it's safe to drive to a repairer?
2. What are the main indicator(s) of head gasket failure?
3. If it is head gasket failure, I read somewhere that a Land Rover Freelander (not sure which model) is the best replacement.

Can anybody help?
Robin
RW Palmer

If you filled the engine with water right after it overheated, the water would be hitting the hot block and bubbling (boiling).
That is a bit risky to do as damage to the block could happen.

After it is cold, fill it up, check the water level and the dipstick and the exhaust (for white smoke)...

Could the coolant have been really low before it overheated?
gblawson(gordon)

Robin,
White smoke from the exhaust, bubbles in the coolant and sputtering or missfiring are a sure sign of a "toasted" head gasket,,,,, Before any one can tell you if it is safe to drive to a repairer, we must first know how far you have to drive to the repairer and how bad the gasket failure is!! A few careful miles might be OK, say mabey 8 to 10, but if it starts to get real hot, stop and let it cool down before you warp the head..

SPW
Steve Wincze

The comment about "red line" on the temp gauge leads me to believe that this person has a late model TF and should be on the other BBS.
Cheers,

Bob
bobj50

Oh... in that case it is the head gasket!!!!
gblawson(gordon)

Bob,
I believe you are correct,,,, Why would a Freelander head gasket even be close to one of our TF's...

SPW
Steve Wincze

A compression check will help to pinpoint a head gasket failure. Steve, your analysis sounds right on, and Bob... it has to be a modern TF. We actually have a couple of MGFs in Minnesota, I am friends with the owners. Pretty cool cars, and fun to drive.

Gordon, I'm always impressed with your common sense. I really need to get up to NOTL and visit.

Good call, guys.

dave
Dave Braun

Dave... with the distances involved, I think we would have to meet in Detroit/Windsor!!!!
gblawson(gordon)

Are you kidding? Gordon, I've been to Detroit, and NOTL, and I would much rather visit NOTL again! With the way 'Tommy' glides over the road, I'm thinking a 1900 mile trip would be nothing! LOL One of my goals is to take it to the east and wast coasts someday.

I'll stop by and pick up Bruce C on my way, and we can visit Greg Cenzer and grab Allen Bacholder at the home for wayward MGs, (or whatever he calls it)! I bet Steve Tobias would drive down to join us. In fact, why isn't there an International Meet planned for NOTL in the future?

warmly,
dave
Dave Braun

Anytime... I can organize anything (well, within reason) you want... The Shaw show next August would be a great time (you wouldn't have to attend the show if you didn't want to)... I have opened it up to any and all BC and it is usually good weather! We have tons of B and B's around, although they are usually booked solid in late July/August... however, booking in the fall/winter should provide lots of space. Niagara Falls (17 minutes away) always has various discount Motels out on the 'strip' that usually have vacancies all summer...and lots of specials!
Remember... next June (unless things change) you will need a passport to get back 'in' to your country after exiting to Canada! (I see our population increasing by gazillions)
Anyway... would be really great to see and meet all you guys....
gblawson(gordon)

OK, I'm ready! But I have a stupid confession: I don't know what NOTL is. Gotta be Northern Ontario... something. I know - as soon as somebody tells me, I will realize I already knew it, but I'm drawing a blank right now. Somebody, help me out please.

Thanks!
Allen
Allen Bachelder

Allen,
NOTL: Niagara-on-the-Lake
Not too bad for a dutchman right?
Groetjes, Huib
Huib Bruijstens

Dave,

I'm installing my first interior (Moss) on my '50 TD as we speak! Where did you get your "thermal sound mat" material, Moss? I'm right in the middle of making a decision on that topic so your input would be very timely. Any pictures of the interior (or did I miss them above)?

Ed H. in Colorado
efh Ed

Opps... sorry... yes, well done... Niagara on the Lake... 20 minutes from Niagara Falls.... Original Capital of Upper Canada (moved cause it was too close to the American border)... The town that time forgot (too poor in the '50's to add all that Angel Brick most main streets did) so it is pretty well as it was in the 1800's... anyway... is a great area to have a 'meet' in!!! (and of course there are about 20 Tcars in the area!)

The town's website sucks, but here are some photos from their gallery:

http://www.niagaraonthelake.com/gallery/index.php?cat=6
gblawson(gordon)

Ed, I got the sound deadner at NAPA. It's on my website uner "Interior & Upholstery » Carpet". I took some pictures of the interior process, but I found the whole thing frustrating, and took fewer than I intended!

Last night I put the hood on.

warmly,
dave


Dave Braun

Looks great! I hope I have such good results!
Ed
efh Ed

Dave. If that buzzer is too noisy just let in hang on the wires. If still too noisy wrap a bit of foam rubber around it. I did that to mine.
Sandy
conrad sanders

Good idea, Sandy.

Tommy debuts today at 'Wheels and Wings' in Osceola, WI. I'm looking forward to the reaction of people who've never seen him.

warmly,
dave
Dave Braun

This thread was discussed between 25/08/2008 and 06/09/2008

MG TD TF 1500 index

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