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MG TD TF 1500 LED Lights and blinkers BBS discussion at MG-Cars.net
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MG TD TF 1500 - LED Lights and blinkers
| Looking for some help, I have fitted LED lights to me Late TD 1953. The TD has had blinkers since rebuilt in 1970 and with incandescent bulbs & no issues. The wiring is STD late TD with the blinkers circuit integral to the loom. The TD is RHD and the location of the flasher unit was on the left hand horn mounting which is grounded. Positive Ground. With the ignition on and Engine OFF - Everything works just fine The side light forward are White with yellow blinkers. Red side light Rear and brighter Red Break lights with integral blinkers. However when I start the Engine the blinkers go all to hell. They flash rapidly just like you had a bulb gone. But both front and back are flashing. The lights work OK. Both side and brake. But that said - with a front Lenz removed and lights off - you can see a little bleed through on the white LED's rapidly flashing - very faintly. With the side light Lenz on it is not noticeable. The thought is it is RF Interference? I have extended the wiring to mount the flasher unit under the firewall near the relay unit and using its ground. The flasher is plastic and I have tried to wrap it in Aluminum foil as a shield but so far I cannot get this to function. Has anyone been through this before and is there a fix. Video is not that good but you get the idea of what is happening. Appreciate any help. Will try the link again this on does not work Rod |
| Rod Jones |
| Try This Link. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs-OSHHdO1I May need to copy and past. Rod |
| Rod Jones |
| Rod Have you changed the flasher unit to one suitable for LEDs? Stuart |
| Stuart Duncan |
| Yes Stuart, I got the complete bundle - two front, two rear LED's , and the new plastic flasher unit. The dash light is still incandescent but it works just fine with engine off. However, I disconnected it at the flasher unit to see if it made a difference. It did not. Connections are Dark green on X terminal(the supply) Brown and green on L and P goes to the dash (Light green) Rod |
| Rod Jones |
| Rod, I had a lot difficulty converting my 1950 TD to LEDs. All sorts of bizarre reactions to occurred. Here are a couple of thoughts. I have also converted my instrument lights to LEDs. I went through several flashers from different manufacturers that were all design for positive ground but none of them worked properly until I found this one from Litezupp; LFM3PG https://estore-sslserver.us/litezupp.com/epages/ac0e8cab-e6c1-4d6b-ab90-9213bdc3f061.sf/en_US/?ObjectID=697956 Make sure all your grounds are clean and solid. Especially the tail from the flasher. Mort |
| M Resnicoff |
| Thanks Mort, It is nice to know I am not the only one. Will go through and check the grounds... Still can't work out why it works perfectly without engine running though? |
| Rod Jones |
| I'm going to make a wild guess.... the ignition is robbing a bit too much power and the LEDs and/or flasher are being under powered to function properly. Especially at idle as shown in the video. Also, the new 8 leg controllers are solid state and may also be getting wonked. Filament bulbs/old blinkers don't care. |
| MAndrus |
| I believe the ignition may be emitting sufficient EMF to cause interference in the LEDs. This is the same thing that happens with trying to use a digital multimeter when the engine is running. To prove this, try using resistive spark plugs or resistive spark plug leads. Hold a transistor radio near the engine with and without the engine running to estimate the effectiveness of the resistance in the ignition circuit. Also, shielding the sidelight wiring may help. I design and manufacture LED inserts for MGs and Classic Minis (www.brittrix.com) and refuse to get into sidelight LEDs for this very reason. The tail lamps are where you need the extra brilliance, not so much at the front. But not all flashers are the same. Some say they are "electronic" but many still use electronic components to trigger a relay. You want a totally electronic flasher. These are usually square, not the round can. I find the EL13 works well, but it may require slightly different wiring, as it requires BOTH a negative and positive voltage supply and provides only one connection for the load (lamps AND warning light). Contact me at lew (at) roundaboutmanor (dot) com if you need additional help. |
| Lew Palmer |
| I have LED indicators installed both front and rear on my TF and have none of the problems you are experiencing. The only issue I have is that I cannot connect the dash indicator light to the blinker can, have not bothered chasing an alternative can. The phenomena that you are seeing is indicative of what occurs when you connect a trailer with LED lights to a vehicle that has incandescent bulbs and a bulb failure warning feature. I am wondering whether the original rear indicator brake light circuitry has not been isolated correctly. I have not confirmed whether the original feed to this circuit is only active when the engine is running, someone will know. Graeme |
| G Evans |
| Thanks Lew Your Email address above came back undeliverable? Quote: - Remote Server returned '533 5.4.0 Your message seems to have triggered our junk email filters. Could you edit your message and try again?' |
| Rod Jones |
| Rod, that is the correct email. You might also try sales (at) brittrix (dot) com substituting the @ for (at) and . for (dot) |
| Lew Palmer |
| I currently have a working circuit with Incandescent white bulbs in the front and LED's in the rear. I had to refit my original Lucas Flasher unit and SO far everything works. Only change is the duration of the flash is a tad shorter. At least the rear lights are brighter and I guess having driven with white front flashers for 45 years It is no big deal to continue. I just cannot believe there is no a way to shunt any RF interference to ground. There should be a way. Rod. Lew, I will try the other address. Your spam filter is blocking me on the first one. |
| Rod Jones |
| If you are convinced RF is your problem why not apply the principles used to solve this when installing a radio. Suppression capacitors and leads are available in the market place. Personally for the minimum cost involved I would be swapping the front indicator/side light LEDS for their equivalents from Classic Car LEDS, I know they function without fault and I believe they have developed shorter length units that do not require the bulb holders to be modified. Check my previous post on this subject as the issue could still be that you have not installed separate amber LED rear indicators as per my images. Graeme |
| G Evans |
| EMF or ignition robbing? Get a grip fella's. It's one or two or all the LED's you got in there are no good, simple as that. For instance, running light circuit and turn blinker and brake light circuit all are entirely different circuits in the car. UNLESS the chinese cheap junk LED's are bleeding current, and then whatever the two circuits are not seperate circuits any more. Easy to check each bulb (removed) for bleed. ground and apply current to one of the two base contacts and check for current bleed (any current at all) to the other base contact. There should be no connection at all from one to the other base contacts. Just like old fashioned filament bulbs with two base contacts, each is entirely seperate. That or you got a punk ground in there. |
| b fisk |
| I adapted LEDs, as well as turn signals & emergency flashers to our '50 TD over the years. It was trial and error finding an electronic flasher that would really work right. Lew probably knows more than anybody on this subject. His comment on tail/brake lights reminds me that I had to search through quite a few to find ones that you could see a real difference between the tail light and brake light. Our MG taillights are so small, I plan to tuck away another set of tail/brake LEDs around the spare tire. I wasn't very happy with odd appearance of the front LED parking lights, so I went back to filament bulbs up front. They fill the lens with a soft white glow and the extra draw may help stabilize the blinking. MY wife was always driving with the blinkers on, so I added a pair of red LEDs hidden in between the wood dash and cowling, as well as a loud beeper that's really annoying. If you're changing to LEDs to conserve current, the largest saving came when I swapped to very bright HID bulbs. In fact, they really helped when a deer ran out in front of us tonight- we spot animal eyes glowing bright yellow way before their body appears. I'm also very happy with LED headlights that have come out. |
| JIM N |
| Jim, Instead of using an annoying loud beeper, just connect a cheap automotive relay between the P terminal on the flasher can and earth. Hide the relay under the dash. This gives an audible clicking sound similar to a modern day car and is not annoying-quite the opposite! Regards Declan |
| D Burns |
| "I have LED indicators installed both front and rear on my TF and have none of the problems you are experiencing. The only issue I have is that I cannot connect the dash indicator light to the blinker can, have not bothered chasing an alternative can. " I'm have the exact problem Graeme is. I cannot fit the dash light into the circuit without causing something else to misbehave. I re-installed the old bulbs for now... fight another day. |
| MAndrus |
| b fisk, your "Get a grip fella's" comment is offensive. |
| MAndrus |
| Gr |
| Rod Jones |
| Graeme, I did remove the connection form P to the dash to see if that helped - It did not. I am looking to try another flasher unit and also get hold of some suppression kit to help with the EM interference. The system now works - "kinda" - Flashes a tad fast and the dash light blinks only once. This is with normal bulbs up front and LED to the rear Where it is possibly better to have brighter lights. Running on the original Lucas flasher. At least I can drive it. :) |
| Rod Jones |
| MAndrus, All you need to do to restore the function of the dash indicator light is to move its connection to the "L" post on the flasher instead of the "P" post. You likely have a electronic flasher with the "+", "-", and "L" terminals and not the older "P" post. so just move the wire from the dash light to the "L" post instead. |
| Lew Palmer |
| I got the LED lights and the flasher from AS, SKU#65-030B. It's marked "X, P, L". I tried each connection. IIRC, the dash light stayed lit on "P". The rest of the system worked just FINE WITHOUT the dash indicator wired in. I followed the instructions on the box below: Not insurmountable, just have to take a crack at it when I can revive my inner electrical engineer. BTW, it might not be a bad tile to put two LEDs on the dash between the speedo and tach and wire them to the front bulb leads coming from the 8 leg. True L/R directionals. I used two 1/8" LEDs on the dash of my '34 and they were quite effective, and nearly invisible.  |
| MAndrus |
| For anyone interested, I now manufacture the inserts for the Lucas L471 (square lens) early TD tail lamps ($79 per pair). I don't do the later TD lamps since there simply enough real estate in the round lights to cram enough LEDs to make a difference in brilliance over an incandescent bulb. www.brittrix.com |
| Lew Palmer |
| For anyone interested, I now manufacture the inserts for the Lucas L471 (square lens) early TD tail lamps ($79 per pair). I don't do the later TD lamps since there simply enough real estate in the round lights to cram enough LEDs to make a difference in brilliance over an incandescent bulb. |
| Lew Palmer |
| I have the round lights and have fitted twin function red led bulbs that operate as rear lights and brighter brake lights. In both modes they are much brighter than the original tungsten bulbs. I got the bulbs from ebay at the third attempt - the first two pairs I tried were too long to fit under the beehive lenses. If anyone is interested I'll post an image of the bulbs when back in England (currently in France). Dave H |
| es1 |
| I installed Halogen tail lamp bulbs some years ago (square early TD lamps). They are vastly brighter. I'm sure Lew's LEDs are brighter yet due to the large surface area. IMHO, for the other bulbs it is pointless to change them. George |
| George Butz |
| I just went through the exercise of converting to LEDs for side/turn and tail/brake/turn on my TF. At the same time I did the conversion to -VE grounds. The LEDs were obtained from a reputable source in the UK, Classic Car LEDs. With the pound being in the pond they were very reasonably priced, all delivered for less than $50 for the 4 LEDs. They all worked immediately, of course the flasher function did not, but my research led me to an article that advised that the EF33RL from CEC industries would work without load resistors, BUT that the flying lead needed to be attached to ground. I ordered one through Amazon, Memotronics shipped it, was here in 3 days, fitted it this morning, and it works. The end result is significantly brighter turn signals and brake lights along with much brighter side and tail lights. Total cost of the exercise $60, well worth it. Peter |
| P G Gilvarry |
| Well - So far I have ordered a suppressor for the HT lead and another for the Generator. Hopefully that and a couple of other flashers units - I will find one that works. The fact that the system works just fine with the engine not running. Leads me to believe it is induced electric current/voltage causing the issue. Suppression should help but never count your eggs till their laid. If I do get it resolved - I will post what the answer was. Rod |
| Rod Jones |
| Is there a significant voltage difference when you are running the engine, with ignition on but no output from generator voltage would be lower. Of course at idle generator is doing nothing anyway. Just a thought. |
| P G Gilvarry |
| I use some brighter LED bulbs at the back of the car only, and have not altered anything else. Same blinker can used for tungsten bulbs works just fine as long as there is still enough current draw. Nearly identical blink rate. Tungsten running and turn signal bulb up front. I did have some double contact LED bulbs I tried in the rear that failed to work correctly, due to the reason B Fisk stated. It looks like even some of the higher priced bulbs have the bleed problem. I ended up going to Walmart and found the LED bulbs they sell do not have the bleed problem in the double contact base bulbs. |
| D mckellar |
| Well I now have the other flasher units and a Cap for the Genny Just waiting for the inline suppressor for the coil. I have already tried the flasher form Abingdon Spares for positive earth LED's and will give these other two a try. Figured removing any RF might help so ordered the cap for the generator. Is it the F or the D terminal I put this Cap on? Or does it matter? Rod  |
| Rod Jones |
| OK, The thing that resolved my issue with LED lights and the blinkers was the flasher unit from LiteZupp LFM 3PG. In the dark and without the lens on you can still JUST see a little bleed through from induced voltage on the white forward side lights. Much less then with the other flasher unit. I did try the Tridont flasher Unit as well EL 13A1 but that did not work at all? There were no flashers with engine off or on. So I have the Abingdon Spares LED lights all round White/Amber forward - Red to the rear but could only get them to function (as far as the flashers goes)by fitting the LiteZupp flasher Unit LFM 3PG If anything the only comment I would make is the flasher works a tad slower and the flash to non flash is about equal. I have yet to fit any of the suppression stuff I also obtained. |
| Rod Jones |
| Sounds like you want making good progress Rod. As I said in my reply on April 2, the LFM3PG was the only one that work for me and I tried about a half a dozen. Mort |
| M Resnicoff |
| Mort, Just out of Curiosity. When you have the lights off and the lens off your front side light. Can you see a faint tremor on the white LED's when the engine is running?? It is really small bleed through but would like to know if it is just my TD. I'm pretty sure it is just RF interference. Nothing you can measure on a meter. Also Flasher is just a tad slower then a normal Blinker unit.? Rod |
| Rod Jones |
| Rod, the RF you think is causing the problem would be caused by the generator output, and not the input, wouldn't you think? Try suppressing the output, or D terminal. Why not remove the double contact LED bulbs and check for current bleed between the tow separate contacts? I am not talking about "bleed" as other's are speculating concerning RF interference. I am talking about cheap LED's that "bleed" by creating a direct short between the two separate circuits; and this would include the majority of LED (double contact) bulbs being sold today! So very simple to check for. |
| D mckellar |
| Not too sure how I can check for current bleed between the two sides of the LED Bulb? These came for Abingdon Spares and look the part. Well made and they do function as advertised. With the right Flasher Unit. Is there a particular Ohm reading I should look for between the two contacts? Rod |
| Rod Jones |
| If there is a bleed from one of the (twin contact bulbs) contacts to the other, the Ohm meter will not show it. You need a volt meter. It happens when power (13V) is applied to one contact, and usually about 5 or 6 volts can be detected bleeding out the other contact. It is very common in twin contact LED's. |
| D mckellar |
| Rod, if you do a Google search for "LED lights stay on after being shut off" you will find a huge amount of information on the subject. This You Tube video discusses how to stop the after glow. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbP-pt4aczs Tim TD12524 |
| TW Burchfield |
| Yep, I did that and the flickering I see is only when the engine is running. Very faint too, and in tune with the rippems. I have a large capacitor I can fit to the D terminal of the Jenny - worth a try. Also one of those inline caps for the coil lead. So far I have put the suppressed plug caps back on - for no change. |
| Rod Jones |
| OK,
I thought I had better update this thread as the issue was solved by Mike Sabelhaus of Litezupp when he kindly looked through some of his positive ground stock of flasher units and found a couple that did exactly what mine did. He adjusted the software that controls the microprocessor in the unit and also adjusted the flash rate to a more normal rate. Then made a new batch and sent me one free of charge. It has been in the car now since Aug 2018 and has not given any trouble. I can't say enough good about the customer service from Mike and Litezupp. Very gratifying to find a Co that will stand by their product and fix things if they are wrong. On a separate issue just found this week. One of the bicolor LEDs I got form Abingdon Spares failed. The Left white sidelight LED is very dim It still lights but it is very noticeable at night the lamp is not working correctly. I did all the usual checks Winker system works fine - grounds are good. Dash light still functions correctly for the flasher. Swapped the two front LED bulbs and the issue goes with the bulb. Ed of Abingdon Spares is sending me a replacement today at no charge. Which is heartening to see folks treating us right in this day and age and business climate. I also cannot say enough good things about Abingdon Spares for their excellent support. Kudos to you guys. Rod |
| Rod Jones |
| I manufacture the LED conversion boards for Abingdon Spares (not the bulbs) and rarely have a problem, EXCEPT for the flasher. There are numerous variations of the "electronic" flashers meant for LEDs. I have recently come across the FL3 from SuperBrightLEDs.com and find that on my own TD, it was the first one I tried that worked perfectly on the first try, although I believe it is negative ground only. I would be curious to know what model number Litezup flasher has fixed your problem, Rod. As I will buy in several to help cure the more difficult cases.
I am now producing inserts for the 1130 front side marker lights in either white or amber. They are polarity neutral so will work as is with either positive or negative ground cars. That is to say nothing of the other 17 different LED inserts which cover all pre-1962 MGs and over 300 different British vehicles. www.brittrix.com Cheers, Lew |
| Lew Palmer |
| Lew This is the electronic flasher I purchased form Lightzupp LFM3PG Flasher Electronic 3 Prong 12 Volt Positive Ground. Shown in the picture above Rod |
| Rod Jones |
| I installed high powered LEDs in my rear lamps which are much brighter than the original... if you dig through the threads you should find the original posts. I still suspect they are brighter than anything else around because the only ones brighter would need electrical cooling systems...
As far as the flashers, I never had a problem, but like others, I never changed the front lamps to LEDs because after trying a couple of setups I didn't like any of them; the flash/running light circuit posed issues I didn't really bother to spend time on solving. So my standard flasher works fine for the same reason as other posters have said... the load from the front incandescents keeps the circuit operating. |
| Geoffrey M Baker |
| With at least two incandescent bulbs in the car, the normal thermal flashers usually work fine. If you go all LED, front and rear, the LEDs usually don't draw enough current to trip the old style flashers.
I have found not all of the flashers that claim LED compatibility are in fact compatible. Some don't flash at all, some give intermittent results. However, I have found a flasher that does work well with no argument. I have a small stock of these for negative ground cars. $15 each. And contrary to my earlier post above, I now do front and rear turn signals LED lights for every TD, TF, and over 300 different British vehicles. This includes the L1130 side fender lights, as well as all of the lights for every MG from 1931 up to 1962. They are all available through the web site www.brittrix.com Pardon the commercial. Cheers, Lew |
| Lew Palmer |
| Nice to see you around again Geoffrey Baker. Several years ago now I followed your guidelines and installed such high power LED's. Every ride I get positive comments from oldtimer friends: sooo bright, sooo safe. Always when I touch brakes, I look in my mirror to see if the (especially the normal ones) car behind respons. And everytime I observe immediat respons. Thanks again for your great advice. |
| Huib Bruijstens |
| Lew Palmer, how do we get in touch with you? I would be interested in a LED compatible flasher if I can find some LEDs that work well with the front lamps. You can reach me at geoffreymbaker@gmail.com … thanks! |
| Geoffrey M Baker |
| Try sales@brittrix.com Bud |
| Bud Krueger |
| Or, lpalmer@roundaboutmanor.com Bud |
| Bud Krueger |
| Bud has is right. sales(at) brittrix (dot)com is the Brittrix website. My personal email is NOT LPALMER (at) roundaboutmanor (dot) com but rather LEW (at) roundaboutmanor (dot) com. The flashers I have are not yet on the web site, but carried with me to shows and swap meets. |
| Lew Palmer |
This thread was discussed between 01/04/2017 and 30/01/2019
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