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MG TD TF 1500 - MATCHING NUMBERS

Gentlemen,
As I watch the market for TD's I am struck by the phrase "matching numbers". There is a broad claim...."the vehicle has matching mumbers". As I look at my own TD I see that the engine number and the car number can't possibly match since they were manufatcetered seperately. I have all kinds of numbers on my TD: 1952 mg td VIN: TD13583 (title) ; CAR # TD/13583 EXL/NA (large brass plate); VIN: BODY TYPE # 22384(smaller brass plate); BODY # 12 949/82934 (smaller brass plate); ENGINE # XPAG/TD2 LHX 13868 (large brass plate); ENGINE BADGE # 13868 (octagon brass plate); and I'm not sure how important they are.
I guess my basic question is how important are matchiong numbers and which numbers should match.
With warm regards,
Confused In Ohio (Dick Thomas)
Dick Thomas

Dcik,

The numbers that should match are the Large Brass Plate TD/13583 EXL/NA (Export Left Hand Drive/ North America) with the TD13583 on the chassis front left dumb iron. You also look for Large Brass Plate XPAG/TD2/13868 with the Octogon badge on the engine which I think you will find reads TD(2) in the center and 13868 on the badge, with 13868 (it may be faint above the badge.) I have to admit I don't know what the extra LHX is for in your engine number on your large brass plate.

Most of the time your engine number will be about 200 above your car number. They took engines and put them in chassis, noted the engine and dumb iron numbers and made the large brass plate to match, adding the export market info if needed.

The other plate is body style (22384) and ID info which no one to date has been able to trace exactly.

warmly,
dave
Dave Braun

To answer the second part of your question, matching numbers are nice... they indicate that the original engine and chassis are still together. But these were cheap little cars, and people often swapped things about. So, it isn't as important as say an original engine in a Hemi Dodge Charger.

warmly,
dave
Dave Braun

LHX = Left Hand drive, eXport. Cheers - Dave
David DuBois

Re: the body plate number.... All TDs are 22381 body style, not sure why they had a number instead of TD like the TF body plate...TA,B and Cs did the same...
The first number is MG's TD body number and the 2nd is the Body Manufacturer's number (Stamped Steel Co.?)... the first number goes numerically up to 29664 (give or take) and the 2nd goes up to 99.999 and then starts over (this happens about 2/3rds way through TD production in 1953). The 2nd number has been found in 'chalk' on the inside of doors/body panels... this I assume would have been transferred to the body plate along with MG's own number.
Abingdon was assembly only...no manufacturing...like most British Car Makers... so many other Companies were involved.... it was sort of 'Buy these bits and put them on'...parts drawings must have been sent by the thousands to and from various companies all over England!!
(Just read an article stating "Jigs and presses were still kept busy at Abingdon, stamping out MG ZA-Type Magnette sedans......." which just didn't happen)
gblawson(gordon)

I think we should add that all of the various plates can be ordered new with the numbers areas blank, and the numbers letters can be added to make a "Matching Numbers" car!! The only thing that would be difficuklt to do would be to change the diumb iron number,,,,

SPW

Steve Wincze

If all the numbers really did match (all were the same) then you know something was up. I would think they just mean that they are the correct original #s for that specific car, ie the engine # matches what is on the brass plate, etc. with a different car #. George
George Butz

Steve & George bring to light some very important points as far as "numbers matching" cars. Dumb iron & engine "block" numbers would require some work to change.
Anybody with $50.00 can get blank plates and put any numbers they want on them (as Steve pointed out) and yes, people DO THIS!
I know for a fact (unless it has been dissembled in the past few years) that there is at least one "TF1500" out there sporting a Volvo 1800 engine and "matching number plates" that was claimed as an original car some years ago. ~NOT~
Even "the register" has made mistakes in the past. I have two BMHT certificates for my car...one with "correct" engine number and another with "wrong" engine number!
IMHO, Any claims of "original" or "matching" numbers needs to be backed up by some history of the car in question.
Not too long ago a "TF 1500" was sold at auction for a very high dollar. Looking though archives some of the "numbers" on obviously new "plates" (wrong "font" and fastening hardware) came back with a hit showing two basket case 1250's for sale several years before this car was "restored".
Buyer beware!
Cheers,
David 55 TF1500 #7427
David Sheward

PS :
For "correct" on a TF I alway look to Collins car ...in the family sence new!
David
David Sheward

You are right about the register errors- my engine number is listed as 1124. They forgot the 9 on the end! George
George Butz

The depth of knowledge of this group is awsome. It leaves me speechless. Thus I will write rather than speak the following.
It seems the claim "The vehicle has matching numbers" only indicates that the seller hasn't any real knowledge of the TD being offered and, thus, beware of oll other claims. I'm also struck by the comparison of the lazy and "who gives a damn" numbering system during production on the one hand and the wonder of that little car 57 years later on the other.
Dick Thomas
Dick Thomas

I've always taken 'matching numbers' for a T series as the chassis and engine and dumbiron numbers matched what was stamped originally on the 'number plate'....?
gblawson(gordon)

Now owning a car that does not have matching numbers due to a catastrophic engine failure, I wonder about this myself.

No choice for me. It does mean that my car has things that are a little different than when it left the factory, but then, what TD does not? (ok some of you have absolutely original cars)

Matching numbers in American cars is a bit more unique than ours. With MG, you had no option on engine size, and other then buying a MKII, limited options. Just about every part on any specific year TD is interchangable. With American Iron, you could order the car with a variety of engines, transmissions, and differentials.
Bruce-C

IMHO "Matching Numbers" adds absolutely no value to the car. As Dave Sheward has pointed out, both the engine brass octagon number plate, and the standard car plate are available aftermarket. You can put anything on them both, though obviously, one might be a tad suspect if the car plate and the dumb-iron numbers didn't match; and only a trained eye, will be able to detecct a phoney.

I'm quite surprised how many T-Series owner don't know about the dumb-iron number.

The MGA however, has a very well-hidden chassis stamped number.

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.
Gordon A. Clark

Some of the most common errors I have seen on "T" cars number plates have been "wrong font" and incorrect fasteners! I am always suspect of any "T" car that has the plate secured with rivets, (factory used small brass slotted screws w/square nuts on the back!) One would think it would be the other way round. The wrong font is easy to spot as well.
IMHO If the plate looks brand new the car deserves a closer look. Much of it is common sense...if someone is claiming to have a car with very low "original mileage" and it looks as though it was stored with a bowling ball in the drivers seat for 30 years, the carpet is worn out by the accelerator, and the engine has a fresh coat of GM blue or some other ghastly combination of colors then it is RED FLAG tyme! Any claims by someone that hasn't thought out their scam that far should be disregarded.
These cars were marketed as cheap, 2nd, fun cars and as such, swaps and modifications were common. As to if matching "correct" numbers is important to you as an owner is a personal thing. It all comes down to what YOU want. I wanted a matching numbers TF1500 (like my father had)...that doesn't mean there hasn't been days I have wondered if I shouldn't have bought the TF1250 with the Volvo 1800 engine,5 speed, & disc brakes I looked at years ago. At the time I was not ready to pay the price for what I was being told was an "original 1500 car" when I knew better. That car was fun to drive.
I am ammazed in that at least once a year one (or more) of these cars shows up with someone claiming it to have been in storage all these years and "un-touched", but a closer look just does not seem to back up the claims made.
Cheers & Best Regards,
David 55 TF1500 #7427
David Sheward

This thread was discussed between 08/05/2009 and 09/05/2009

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