MG-Cars.net

Welcome to our resource for MG Car Information.

Recommendations

Parts

MG parts spares and accessories are available for MG T Series (TA, MG TB, MG TC, MG TD, MG TF), Magnette, MGA, Twin cam, MGB, MGBGT, MGC, MGC GT, MG Midget, Sprite and other MG models from British car spares company LBCarCo.

MG TD TF 1500 - negative review of Peter Edney engine building

I would like to inform fellow site members of the terrible treatment I received from Peter Edney. I ordered a 120 h.p. custom xpag engine that had among many other upgrades a extractor manifold. It was already attached to the engine and it had a flange in the front and back.THESE flanges were not drilled out and he supplied no instructions to use end clamps.After about 170 miles into the break in period the manifold warped badly and the engine ran very poorly. When I told him of the problem he simply stated that my very prof.mg garage had no idea idea what they were doing and he bore no responsibility. The problem cost me over $3500 to remedy and he in essence said it was not his problem if you go to his he states that he has no warranty only his fine reputation. Any fellow member thinking of using his engine rebuilding services I would advise to think long and hard before I would do business with him. THANKS MICHAEL OHALLORANIN THE USA.
Michael O'Halloran

Pictures would help...which flanges were not drilled out and how would their not being drilled out make the manifold warp since you stated the manifold was attached to the engine when you got it.
Gene Gillam

If you go to video/Peter Edney the 3rd posted video on his site is the exact engine that I am talking about.Notice how the flanges are not drilled out so without him telling us we needed end clamps how were we to know. MICHAEL.
Michael O'Halloran

Post a link...the only video I see is a supercharged XPA(or E)G with an extractor manifold with the front end flange drilled and attached to the water pump.
Gene Gillam

Without being told, I am not sure I would have noticed or realized that the extractor flange needed further drilling at the front and rear for greater support, or that any additional fabrication would be required. Edney's general video notes, "all engines bench-tested before delivery," so I think I might have taken that statement at face value and just bolted it in.

One Edney video shows Michael's actual engine, with un-drilled tabs fore and aft, sitting on a work table. The other video shows a different supecharged engine for a TC being displayed on the bench (not test-run) where you can clearly see the front of the manifold flange has been drilled and some sort of support stud has been attached to the thermostat elbow (I can't see at the rear). I certainly would have expected that work and necessary TF parts be included with Michael's engine, or some comment be made, since Edney knew it was going into a TF car. (The engine shown actually running on the test bed with a single SU (Y-type?) iron manifold, has and needs no extra supports.) How can Michael's engine be said to have been "bench-tested" with the manifold tabs un-drilled?

I have the remains of a home-made 50's extractor on my Wall o' Speed that has been drilled front and rear, which would be my only reason for being sure that extra support was needed. The factory's thin stamped steel water-passage plate at the rear of the head was replaced with a thick steel plate, with a welded stud that supported and clamped the rear of the manifold. I do not know what they used at the front but the plate has been drilled, so surely something was installed there also,to prevent warpage on that long, otherwise-unsupported flange.

"What we've got here [seems to be a] failure to communicate," as the Captain says to Cool Hand Luke, and this disagreement highlights the need for effective customer service, and communication. I supply comprehensive, detailed written instructions with most of the new parts I sell (the others are obvious), and I encourage customers to call if they have any questions or problems. I supply an installation sheet with every Roadster Gasket I sell, filling both sides of a single-spaced sheet, to outline what I believe MUST be done to guarantee a leak-free installation. If any additional work is necessary with any MG part I buy, I would expect to be told what it was - Moss installation and information sheets are very helpful in this regard, for instance.

There are at LEAST two sides to every story, and we don't know but one here. I have no skin in this game, and have resisted being drawn into it. I hope the disagreement can be worked out.

Tom Lange
MGT Repair

t lange

3 rd, video on video/Peter Edney clearly shows my engine sitting on a work table with the end flanges not drilled out. Go back and look again.The other thing that I failed to mention is that the head is a Alum. Laystal.Since you don't want to weld a bolt to except a end clamp I think this is another reason Peter didn't want to deal with it. MICHAEL.
Michael O'Halloran

Please make clear whose comment above are you addressing, Michael. I think I say just what you say - that your engine is shown on the work table, with un-drilled tabs front and rear.

Tom Lange
MGT Repair
t lange

Tom my comment is directed to Gene Gillam not you MICHAEL.
Michael O'Halloran

Thanks for clarifying.

Tom Lange
MGT Repair
t lange

The attached shows a similar extractor with original intake manifold, no tabs included. The attachment definitely relies on the rigidity of the plate for sealing. I put half-round spacers under the washers. So far it has not warped that I can tell. Curious to see if the tabs and additional clamping are necessary.

Jim


J Barry

I donít know who Peter gets his extractors from. Iím sure he doesnít manufacture them or else everyone makes the same identical extractor. Steve Baker claimed that his son builds his. I responded on the other forum and would include it here but the internet is not being cooperative at the moment but my comment can be viewed there

Tom, I donít know what extractor you have in the wall but assuming it is a Dorrington. The early extractors usually had a 1/4Ē flange which did necessitate the use of provisions outboard of the #s 1 and 4 exhaust ports to prevent them from bending. The modern stainless flanges are 3/8Ē and a less malleable(?) material. I have the Baker extractor on TD-4834 and the outboard flanges are not drilled. I have had the crappy exhaust gaskets blow out at the 2-3 exhaust port at times. The cause was two fold. First, I was not rechecking the manifolds mounting bolts torque periodically. Second, I ran the gasket dry. After several failed gaskets I now use Hi-Temp RTV around all ports on both sides of the gasket. I allow the RTV to set a bit before drawing the manifold snug. After several heat cycles I will retorque the manifold bolts and again periodically when inspecting the engine compartment. Since doing this method I have had no incidences of gasket failure for the last several thousand miles of hard spirited driving at rpms ranging from 4000-6500rpm.

To add here the H.P. output of the engine has nothing to do with the header warpage. But that is only my opinion. It may be possible the extractorís flange was warped during manufacture. Again, itís only a supposition on my
part. No matter the cause itís occurrence was unfortunate. As with any speed part or modified engine the vendor has no control over its eventual use or suitability. Ergo no warranties express or implied. Not an uncommon disclaimer with highly modified engines or speed parts in general. To fault Peter Edney for the failure of an engine build is not a fair statement by the OP. The engine didnít fail. Only an ancillary speed part. I understand his displeasure but he didnít have an engine failure and I wouldnít necessarily expect one with the high quality internals that were installed. But then... it is only my opinion. I donít know what if any subsequent follow through maintenance was in play between start up and extractor failure. Maybe none and maybe there was due diligence in keeping things at their proper torque values. It may be that substandard hardware may have been used which stretched from over torquing and heat cycle which may have lead to the warpage. IDK But, as you intimated we have only one side of the story here and a incomplete history of events.

W A Chasser

Michael,

Hereís photos of the way my extractor manifold is attached to the head. The water cover at the back of the head is a block of aluminum with a bolt from it to the flange...the front is a block of aluminum attached to the outside of the water pump.

I donít understand how a warped manifold could cause $3500 worth of damage to your engine. What happened?

Gene





Gene Gillam

A couple more photos...

And I agree with Bill...there has to be more to the story.





Gene Gillam

The idea that intake and exhaust manifolds bolted to the head VIA THE FLANGE PLATE in 4 places is a big departure to the original studs & clamps ON THE ACTUAL MANIFOLDS AND HEADER. In an instant, those extended exhaust flanges caught my attention and my gray matter began to wonder what they had to be attached to.

If Peter shipped the engine with thermostat elbow and rear blanking plate installed, then shame on him (they were not in the pictures). If they were attached but the installers without thinking, then shame on them.

Anyway, a touch of blowby out of the header flange is not going to permanently damage an engine. The intake manifolds were afixed by the four studs as well as can be expected, so any excuse that a lean running created by exhaust headers (is that the claim?) is a lame excuse.

It is not important, but I'd like to know what the thickness of the suspect exhaust flanges are. Are they carbon steel, ferritic (magnetic) stainless steel or austenitic (nonmagnetic) stainless? Did anyone check flatness with feeler strips? Welding tubing onto one side of the flange plate will pull it. It can easily be corrected. But guess what? If there were two bolts on each side of the exhaust flanges, there'd be no leak.

What disappointed me is the fact that the intake shares the same flange as the exhaust, but that is practical. But hey, superchargers are installed a fraction of an inch above the ehaust on the stock head.

Peter cannot be expected to know what water outlet in front or blanking plate in back will be picked out of a pile or fabricated. I don't like the stock manifold dogs on short studs so I made my own.

After seeing what they charge for 1350cc XPAGs made me feel even better about my last creation... 1466 XPAG with S.Co.T blower. I think I'll refer to it as King Kong from now on.






JIM N

Here are my ideas for heavy duty steel clamps on long studs to double nut and extra support at the coolant return passage.

There's no limit to imagination.





JIM N

Jim - I'm going to need to construct the front support for my ScoT blower, as shown in your last image. Do you have any drawing of how you made yours? Is it a plate that fits under the water outlet elbow?

It seems to me that Edney knew the engine would go into a TF (his video says so), and he sold it ready to go: as his website says: "The engine and gearbox assembly is supplied fully assembled and ready to fit. Just put it in and turn the key."

I, too, am surprised that it cost $3,500 to remove the manifold, drill and re-surface it, make up fore and aft brackets, and re-install. Admittedly it's a TF, but those would be pretty high hourly rates. Unless there is more to the story, I see that as a $1,500 job.

Tom Lange
MGT Repair
t lange

Jim, what kind of carburetor are you using with that SCOT?

Gene
Gene Gillam

This is a known issue with some Derrington style headers. I had an original here that was pretty bad. The problem is the base plate not being thick enough to handle the heating and cooling cycles while clamped only from the center. Clamping by the ends from the head end plates solves the issue, assuming the thing is flat to begin with. There are some out there with a more substantial base plate that completely solves the problem as well, reportedly no end clamps necessary. Manley's headers use 3/8" stainless as I recall, and do not warp.

I would use a press to straighten it as best as possible, then lightly skim on a mill (absolutely as little as possible) and reinstall using end clamps. A bit of high temp sealer will help cure any imperfect areas.
Steve Simmons

Tom,
I'll email you so we don't hijack this thread.

Gene,
It is a Solex. I cleaned it up and installed it on my wife's TD. Performed fine. It has no choke but does have an interesting enrichener that I did not test.
JIM N

To whom it may concern I will not go into pricing about my repair costs out of respect TO my mg garage.I will say that I had over $500 in shipping costs to have the repair work done after it was determined that driving the car to ascertain the damage and then to have the repairs done could further damage my $18000 engine. These shops are not located around the corner from my home. MICHAEL.






























Michael O'Halloran

Michael - we are not trying to pry into your financial affairs, or bad-mouth anyone. But many of us have a fair sense of how long things take to fix, and when someone mentions a repair that seems out of proportion, we want to understand it.

And in this case, $3,000 in repairs divided by $75 per hour suggests 40 hours of work, which seems like a lot to remove the manifold, have it re-surfaced, new gasket, make up new clamps and supports, and re-install. It feels within the realm of possibility, but seems higher than I would have thought.

That's all.

Tom Lange
MGT Repair
t lange

Mike,

So you are saying the "expert mechanics" that put it together share no responsibility working on hardware so obvious?

We feel your pain!

Who installed the coolant elbow and blanking plate adjacent to the manifold flange??? Did Peter send it out complete or was it a custom build by "amateurs?"
JIM N

Jim so what is your point that my mg garage should have know exactly what Peter had intended to have done? MICHAEL. or am I misreading what you are saying?
Michael O'Halloran

We're still sitting on pins and needles to find out what they charged $3500 for. Due to an exhaust header? Pull the engine, modify the header and reinstall? We still don't know what the problem was.

Did Pete send it out with the plate in back? Did he supply it with the coolant return elbow? I'll bet not.

I'd have been curious as to why the exhaust header flange stuck out so far. Might've asked questions.

For example- I torqued a new Modex billet crank in with new King bearings and it was locked up tight. Nothing wrong with either. I chamfered the bearing inserts before buttoning up a frozen motor.

Same applied to the rod bearings, locked up tight. Interference fit doesn't get it. Threw away the new King rod bearing inserts and found some NOS inserts.

A mans gotta do what a man's gotta do.

I'm sorry you had problems, but I do my own wrenching so there's no one else to blame but me.
JIM N

What is an ďmg garageĒ?
P G Gilvarry

Michael,

If you can afford to pay $18,000 for an engine worth, at the most, half that and an additional $3500 to have it repaired Iíd love to be your mechanic.

Did you ever talk to anyone locally about building you an engine?

Gene
Gene Gillam

This question is to Gene Gilliam you are saying that this 120 h.p. engine with a $3535 Layatal head and a $2160 billet crankshaft this engine tops should cost $9000? And of course this is not taking into consideration all the other custom upgraded parts that are discussed in Peter Edneys 4 min. video? Just curious how you arrived at that figure? MICHAEL.
Michael O'Halloran

Leaky header flanges have been around since headers were invented. Having only one side of a port clamped isn't going to work, unless you have a super rigid cast piece like the original manifold. Always easy to Monday morning quarterback- it looks obvious now that it was going to leak, and already had the long ears to bolt it down. You couldn't have pre-drilled holes in the ears without having the mounting apparatus and bolts in place. It is like they built the engine and just bolted the header on without finishing that part of the job. If there had been directions stating the outer mounting flange needed additional engineering and fabrication that would have avoided the problem- bad on Edney's part. There is always some onus on the owner/mechanic whenever you are modifying/hot rodding/racing anything that is not stock. A sharp mechanic/racer would have noticed the long ears and realized they were there for a reason, researched and likely found more parts were needed- they didn't do that. Unfortunate deal, as most everyone in the MG community is so forthright, honest and helpful. Meanwhile, my office has been closed due to the virus for 3 weeks, I'm' paying my staff with zero revenue, and don't feel sorry for anyone griping about an expense playtoy race motor. There are real problems in the world now. Just sayin'. George
George Butz III

Edney's general video notes, "all engines bench-tested before delivery," so I think it's reasonable to take that statement at face value.

Tom Lange
MGT Repair
t lange

That manifold looks like stainless (which is overkill, IMHO - but that's an issue for another day) and stainless manifolds tend to be noticeably heaver than a mild steel one. The stainless manifold plate is also heavy, so the whole assembly must me strongly fitted.

Manley Ford supplies a similar manifold, and it too is heavy. The one Manley Ford engine I have seen has replaced the standard studs with noticeably larger cap screws to hold the much heavier manifold in place, and that was on a standard, iron head

Because Michael has an alloy head, obviously some alternate means should be in place to accommodate the increased weight, stresses and vibration of a heavier unit, and Peter Edney shouldn't have left it to the customer to solve the problem. More importantly, he should have consulted with Michael ... just normal, good business. Nobody likes surprises!

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Quť.
Gord Clark

I feel a bit guilty involving myself in this issue, but I have always been a fair person, and I smell a bit of unfairness here.

Attached is a composite picture of Derrington mild steel and Manley Ford stainless manifolds, and one can clearly see the difference in construction.

I'm not dissing Manley Ford - he does lovely work, but I prefer the much lighter Derrington manifold.

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Quť.


Gord Clark

OT :

Gord. Iím curious to know what carburetors the four bolt flanges on your Derrington extractor were designed to fit?

Bill Chasser
TD-4834
W A Chasser

1-3/4" SU's. HS6.

Tom Lange
MGT Repair
t lange

Thanks Tom. Wow thatís a lot of CFM for an XPAG isnít?
W A Chasser

Agreed! I have a single H6 carb on an Ital supercharger manifold, but suspect that even that is pretty big!

Tom Lange
MGT Repair
t lange

Its too bad Peter Edney himself, hasn't weighed in on this. I for one, would like to know why, if he bench-tests each engine, and the manifold forms part of that entity; why he didn't mount it for the test?

Peter Edney is a worthy supplier of T-Series stuff. When I was at Stoneleigh a few years ago, he had some really neat gear and it was well made. I just wish he would clear the air on this one.

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Quť.
Gord Clark

Gord Peter Edney probably hasn't responded because he doesn't know about this post. Why don't you send him a e-mail at. mgparts@hotmail.co.uk This e-mail he responds 2.Also check out the responses of this posting on the mg experience t-forum & prewar forum. MICHAEL.
Michael O'Halloran

I also would like to say that when I asked my mg garage to install mr. Edneys engine they said that for liability concerns that they were going to follow his directions to the letter. They were given spec. instructions for the oil and filter changes for the 800 mi. break-in period and not to exceed certain rpm's. High zinc is not to be used until the final oil change.We received a engine spec. sheet that's not fully accurate [ it stated the c/r is 9.6:1 but if you watch the video Peter says it is 10.5:1] Other info like timing etc. was missing.Some on this site have stated that my garage should a could a would a use a crystal ball etc. to determine that end clamps were needed. Sure would have been a whole lot better if Peter Edney had just told us. THANKS. MICHAEL.
Michael O'Halloran

Email received today:

If possible I would like to remove the neg. review I posted on Peter Edney mg engine building.

I have been in contact with Mr,Edney and the problem has been resolved.

He responded in a very positive way.

THANKS MICHAEL OHALLORAN MICHAELO
Mike Plumstead

This thread was discussed between 15/04/2020 and 06/05/2020

MG TD TF 1500 index

This thread is from the archive. The Live MG TD TF 1500 BBS is active now.