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MG TD TF 1500 - Oil Dipstick

I have searched the site and found Bud Kruger's note in TTalk about the discrepancies between the oil dipstick reading and actual oil in the sump (later finned sump)just as he states, when I put 6.5 qts in I only show up to the "L" in "Half"...if I were to add about another 1/2 qt I'll register full on the dipstick but that would be 7 qts in the sump...my question...what are others using to mark full...is my full at the "L" in "Half" which would be the correct 6.5 qts...or is it OK to use 7 qts so it registers "Full" on the dipstick?
Bob Dougherty

Bob, I believe that it's the 7 that does the trick. Don't forget about the stuff in the filter. Bud
Bud Krueger

My thought exactly Bud!
Bob Dougherty

I barely get 5 qts into my TD after an oil and filter change (engine 19988 with finned sump and new filter). And that leaves my dipstick at the Full mark. Where is all the oil going?

The manual says 9 pints for engines up to 14948 and 10 1/2 pints for the newer ones. I figure the 1/2 pint I am not putting it stays in the system (ie bottom of the sump).

So why do you guys need 1 1/2 quarts more oil? If I did that it would be all over my garage floor and the clutch.
Christopher Couper

I have the same issue as Christopher. Does anybody have a dimension to the top of the dip stick tube?
Peter Dahlquist

Different sumps and different dip sticks.
Gene Gillam

It's a puzzler. As far as I can find out there is only one dipstick. Here's what I found, Engine #28839:

TD Dipstick Oil Level vs. Indication
Note: Dipstick is Part # 24407
Refer to W.M. Fig. P.1 on Page P.1

Quarts Height (in.) Dipstick Indication
1 5/8” None Above sump bottom
2 1.25” None -do-
3 1.75” None -do-
4 2.5” None -do-
5 3.25” Empty mark
6 4” ~2/3 Between H & A
6.5 ~3/4 At ‘L’
7 Full After engine run
7 Full + At U after sitting

Peter's thought is one that I share. Perhaps we can start a thread asking for the height (length?) of the dipstick tube as a function of engine number. Bud
Bud Krueger

OK. So I miss quoted. The 10 1/2 pints is Imperial pints and that translates to 12.6 US pints or 6 1/2 quarts give or take.

The smaller sump is supposed to be 5 1/2 US quarts, which is what mine seems to require. But my engine is newer (19988 than the cutover 14948).Now am really confused.

If there is only one dipstick then the amount of change per level would be different. This does seem to reflect Buds measurements. Because on my car when I am one quart from full I am at the EMPTY line. Add one US quart and I am at FULL line.

So I get a larger bang for my US quart than Bud does :-)
Christopher Couper

Over the years some dipstick tubes were likely removed when blocks machined and perhaps not replaced exactly the same? Is there a ledge/stop in the block to stop the tube, or just a press until fit tight? Just a thought. George
George Butz

George,

There's a stop...and there are two different length dipsticks. One for the small (earlier) sump and one for the later (larger) sump. The earlier block (TC, early TD) didn't have the dipstick tubes (I have one of each). My TC dipstick is put away somewhere and I don't have ready access to it (forgot where it is, in other words).

Gene
Gene Gillam

Gene, the Service Parts List, AKD834, does not show any change in dipstick through the TD line. The only factory part number shown for the dipstick tube is KEM501. Bud
Bud Krueger

Bud,

I may be wrong but this is what I was going by (Neil Cairns book "How to be an Engine Expert on an MG"):

"15) The unribbed 9 pint ( 5 ltr,) aluminium alloy TC sump was recast as a 10 1/2 pint ( 6 ltr,) sump with cooling fins for the new YB due out in 1952, at SC2/17383. It was also fitted to the TD to commonise the engines, at TD2/14948. The oil suction mesh filter pipe was improved, but see SC2/18097, TD2/24489."

The way I read that is that prior to TD engine TD2/14948 the smaller sump was used and therefore the earlier, shorter dipstick had to be used.
Gene Gillam

Given that the dipstick length may or may not change, that the tube may or may not be installed at different heights, that the oil pump & filter may have been updated, that the sump may well have been replaced two or three times over the life of the vehicle & that the block may even have been changed, rebranded & renumbered, can anybody suggest a foolproof & simple method of determining exactly how much oil any particular car requires & exactly how to measure it? Overfilling is almost as bad as underfilling. I've followed this post with interest & am none the wiser! Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Okay...the "other" dipstick you'll find in an XPAG is numbered 24164. This is used on the smaller sump and will give an erroneous reading if used with the deeper sump.
Gene Gillam

Good find, Gene. Can you tell me where you found it and where it was used? Bud
Bud Krueger

Bud,

I actually went out to the garage and looked thru my boxes...don't know why I didn't have it in the engine (it's there now). Here's a photo of the two together.

By the way, the dipstick tube for the TD/TF dipstick should be 4-3/8" above the block hole ( about 6" above pan rail ), This was confirmed for me by Bob Grunau several years ago when I was building up a TD engine.

Gene


Gene Gillam

And a close-up:


Gene Gillam

Peter,

There's a picture of the smaller sump that apparently came off a '53 TD at http://www.mg-cars.net/mgtd-mgtf1500-bbs/sumpanyone-20090820173828724.htm

Compare the front of that to the larger sump in the picture below (sorry for the crappy photo...it's getting dark in the garage).

Gene






Gene Gillam

Gene, You are right about the "small and large" TD sumps and the changeover numbers. However, the DEPTH is the same for both TD sumps, and that is all the dipstick cares about. The added volume of oil is at the front (length). 24407 dipstick with tube correct for all TDs when left factory , no tube and the other dipstick for TC's. If I used the "shorter" dipstick, it wouldn't fit into the tube and the oil would be 3" deeper. The flared out flange on the long one seats over the tube, the short one with the "stop" stops at the block. 99.9% sure about this. George
George Butz

Gene if my block has the longer dipstick & a non finned sump what is the correct quantity of oil & what should my dipstick read when she's full? Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

As I've not got a reply they must both be dumb questions. So I guess I should just fill to the full mark, whatever that quantity is & hope for the best ...
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

This exercise has made me more comfortable. In short dropped a thin rod down the tube. The difference between the dip stick depth and rod depth is added to the dimension from full to empty and should be around 3.38 inches (for 5 quarts 4 oz).

I bought 5 gallons of Casterol 20/50 added 4 oz ZDDP and I come exactly to the full mark. No oil filter change.
The delta from full to half full on the stick is about a quart and that's a reasonable safety factor.
Peter Dahlquist

Peter,
If you put 5 gallons of oil in your MG ...uh, I think you forgot to put the drain plug back in first! LOL
Just bustin' yer' chops ...think we all know you meant 5 quarts!
David Sheward 55 TF1500 # 7427

David: But US or Imperial?

Should we start the International System of Units rant again? :-)
Christopher Couper

The XPAG is a derivative of a continental engine surely we should be talking quantities in liters.

Graeme
G Evans

td5801 it should be apprx 5 US qts with your non ribbed pan, long dipstick (#24407) with the tube extension in the block
W. A. Chasser Jr

Thanks Bill. Doesn't answer my first question but does give me something to go on. This much I do know. The actual quantity of oil must depend on the surface area & shape of the sump, which can vary, as sumps are mixed & matched. The perceived quantity depends on the type, length & location of the dipstick, which it seems, can also vary. As it's possible to find 3 different "original" blocks in a TD, the TC/TD, the TF & even the Wolseley 444, with two different dipsticks & at least 3 sumps, leaving aside two types of oil filter canister, I guess there is no answer to my original question "HOW MUCH OIL DOES ANY GIVEN CAR REQUIRE"? What is needed is some kind of chart/graph with quantities in boxes that attempts to answer that question for everybody, but given the variables that's way beyond my level of maths. So it seems it is to remain just one of life's great mysteries. So unless someone has a better idea I'll just convert 5US quarts to litres, pour it in & wait & see what happens. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Peter Maybe I'm not understanding your issue. The TC/early TD pan capacity is 9 pts imp. or 5.1 litres per the WSM The late TD/TF has the larger capacity (ribbed) pan. Sump depth is the same. It is a change in the length at the front of the sump almost to the front face of the block that gives the ribbed pan the extra capacity. The 24407 dipstick must be used with the tube or it will hit the bottom of the pan before it sits on the block. The short stick 24164 doesn't use a tube. I don't necessarily agree with Gene re early vs late dipsticks I think I would go as far to say that either setup is correct...that they may have come from different suppliers or batches or even engine assembly lines and were used as supply on the line dictated. The variable is the pan ribbed or unribbed. Also the WSM is giving the level in the sumps capacity and not the overall system capacity, ie it does not account for the capacity of the filter as in Chris's instance (the extra 1/2qt or 1pt)Which I would imagine to be similar in all three filter versions.

short dipstick #24164 TC/early TD smooth pan
9pts Imp /5.1 Litres

X

Long dipstick #24407 Late TD/TF ribbed pan
with tube


Capacity of the various filters approximately the same
W. A. Chasser Jr

"The variable is the pan ribbed or unribbed". I totally disagree. The variable is tube or no tube. Fairly certain the depth of ribbed and unribbed is the same. Will have to find a reference, but I'm fairly certain that all TD's originally had the long dipstick with tube, while TC's had short and no tube. Just won't work the other way around. Yes, things could have been switched around over the years. I have never measured exact quantity of oil, and just fill to the middle of the half mark. George
George Butz

Hmmm...
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

According to my TF/TF1500 Operation Manual - "When the sump has been drained completely, approximately 10 and a half pints (Imp) or 6 litres are required to fill it". This does not include a filter change.

I have never had to refill my engine/s (1250 & 1500)- both in bits, so cannot comment on accuracy.

Ian
TF4056
Ian Fry

The oil level in my TD (25009/XPAG/TD2/25404 with ribbed sump) seems to want to hold constant at half way up "HALF". If I add more it just throws it out but it rarely drops below that half of "HALF." Just FYI. Jud
J K Chapin

The oil level in my TD (25009/XPAG/TD2/25404 with ribbed sump and Telcamet {sp?} filter) seems to want to hold constant at half way up "HALF". If I add more it just throws it out but it rarely drops below that half of "HALF." Just FYI. Jud
J K Chapin

Sorry to be so long in getting back to this. Was a bit difficult to get a dimension figure. The tube is inserted at an angle through a small horizontal flat on the side of the block. Measuring along the side of the tube (3 o'clock )I came up with just about 4.75". Bud
Bud Krueger

I was not going to buy into this discussion however "curiosity killed the cat".

From page37 of "Operation Manual The MG midget Series TF"
it states "When the sump has been drained completely approximately 10 and a half pints(6 litres) are required to fill it".

The correct dip stick for this model MG is P/No 24407.

On an engine with a correctly installed dip stick tube:

My question to be answered is, if you fill the sump with this volume of oil, run the engine to circulate the oil and turn off,remove the dipstick and wipe it clean,fully reinsert the dip stick and remove, what will the dip stick read??????

On page6 there is the following statement "The engine must not be run for long periods when the oil level has dropped below the "HALF" mark".

The only smoke and mirrors debate that exists is the use of the word "approximately" which is open to interpretation.

Graeme


G Evans

Graeme, I think it's one these things that can be non-stop. For instance - what if the engine has a spin-on filter adapter into which has been installed a modern filter with an anti-drainback valve? I think I'll do this routine again the next time I change the oil and filter (NAPA 1515).

BTW, Paul Hinchcliffe took a closer look at his early TD and now says that the height of the dipstick tube is a bit over 11 cm. Bud
Bud Krueger

Graeme,

It depends on how soon after you remove, clean and replace the dipstick after running the engine. The oil will continue to drain back into the sump from the valve cover and tappet cover areas for several seconds (at least). What you see on the dipstick immediately after shutting down the engine and trying it will differ from what you see 60 seconds later.

Gene
Gene Gillam

My TD4224 with engine #4331 built Nov 7 1950, came with the smaller oil pan and dip stick #24407. The WSM specs indicates this small pan holds 5.1 Litres [10.8 US pints}. I later acquired a complete TD2 engine #17052 that had the larger finned oil pan which the WSM says holds 5.96 Litres [12.6 US pints]. The dip stick which came with this engine was #24407. In switching the oil pans, I never had a problem with the oil level as I simply put an extra quart in the pan and got the oil level very close to "full", once the filter had it's fill. As George Butz mentions above "both pans are the same depth" so there should not be any difference in the dip sticks. My experience with the two pans and dip sticks proves this out. I hope this helps to resolve the controversy.

George
George Raham [TD4224]

Wouldn't that be great, George. Let's hope so. Bud
Bud Krueger

This thread was discussed between 25/08/2014 and 02/09/2014

MG TD TF 1500 index

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