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MG TD TF 1500 - Oil pipe leaks!
Anybody have a guess why oil is pouring out in attached picture from my '50 TD. The blue thing is brand new Moss filter assembly. Oil is actually coming from side banjo bolt (not from patched oil pipe).
|Ed, looks like a burst in the pipe and that seems to happen regularly. That's why I posted a question about flexible pipes between pump, filter and body, just two days ago. If it is not the pipe or just where the pipe enters the banjo, maybe it comes from the copper rings. Did you renew them? The banjo must lay completely flat on its mating surface of the filter (and the other connecting surfaces). Because of the metal pipes, it is not possible to correct any "not-mating-surfaces" with the banjobolt. Greetings, Huib|
|Could it be that the copper ring closest to "the blue thing" is too thin? The outer ring looks much thicker.|
|Willem van der Veer|
The photo appears to indicate that the pipe itself is crooked. Looking at the banjo where it meets the filter the ring is compressed more at the top. I would suggest annealing the total copper line and bend it to fit prior to tightening up the bolts.
Check the above. If the pipe is intact, it may just be that the copper gasket is not sealing. Make sure the face of the banjo is perfectly smooth. I sand them on a machinists block.
Also make sure the brass washer on the bolt is correctly seated over the lip. There are two sizes of the brass washer and I have seen these put on wrong.
I probably have one of these if you find your's is damaged. You can make flexible ones, but they should not really be needed. If you need one, e-mail me at Bruce dot Cunha at charter dot net
|Ed - Looking at the photo you supplied, I see two thing that I would consider suspect. First, ti doesn't look like the banjo fitting is square against the port of the filter. Second, I see the (fiber?) washer protruding from around the banjo bolt. the banjo fitting is recessed on that side and the bolt has a boss below the head - the washer used in that position has to fit down into the recess of the fitting so that the boss on the bolt will fit flush on the washer. If the washer is too large to fit into the recess (as it appears to be in the photo), it will deform down into the recess and not provide a flat surface for the bolt to seat against. Cheers - Dave|
I installed one of these Moss units on my car, but removed it after a year of chasing leaks as you have described (mine also leaked out the bottom, even with a brand new o-ring). Make sure that the copper washers are all in pristine (if not actually new) condition. As Bruce mentioned above, it can be tricky to get the lower banjo fitting absolutely square with the filter assembly. My solution was to return to the original filter canister; the element is trickier to change, but no leaks.
|I though David was right about the lip/recess in the brass end of the pipe, but the two new ones (spares) I have are flush on both sides of the fitting. Since my car is not here, I can't check. One side may possibly be recessed on an original pipe, maybe someone has one off and could check. The outer washer looks totally hacked up (been there myself)- they need to be perfect. Make sure the banjo bolt is not bottoming in the threads too. Attatched is a picture of my spin-on adaptor, and you can still see the outer copper washer clearly. It is the bigger ID of the two, and has to fit over the lip of the bolt. The inner looks a tick angled on mine, but that is just the angle of the photo. When I ran it briefly it did not leak at all. George|
|try again w/photo
|PS, can't tell from the picture, but what is the grayish stuff slathered on the pipe- JB Weld? That would do it too! George|
|Thank you one and all!|
For the record, the washers you see were all brand new from Moss and ordered specifically for this use. In addition I tried a myriad of other such washers with mixed results - all bad! I just ordered a new pipe (to replace the one with that 'grayish stuff' slathered on it from prior owner-I know not what it is!).
Thanks again everyone and I'll keep at it and make sure everything is lined up square. If that doesn't work I'm thinking of returning everyting back to Moss and ordering a nice looking 3rd party product with screw on filter and flexible lines I just discovered on the web from a John Seim in California. Has anyone seen or used this unit? Maybe it would work for Huib (above) as well in the Netherlands? I've attached a picture to this posting. I guess it's not "classic" but it sure looks like it should work!
|ED you won't go wrong with John Seims stuf|
|I have the system from John Siems and it is great. I just carry the old stuff now as spares.|
|Ed, the info I sent you a few days ago showed John's hoses and Phil's spin-on adapter. The image George attached above shows Bob Grunau's spin on adapter (again with John's hoses) which is the one I was trying to describe, but didn't have a photo for. Notice the hex fittings instead of round, as on Phil Marino's in your last image.|
Phil's look more original, Bob's give you a place for a backup wrench. Both are great.
|Ed, on the image about the flexible lines you posted on 14th, it looks like the banjo's also have been replaced by new ones. Who is this "John Seims" and what's the website site you mentioned? Is he an Mg parts provider? Greetings, Huib|
Here is John's email:
He sells these on eBay!
|See eBay item number 280161379724. They are worth every penny.|
Yesterday I installed 2 brand new oil pipes from Moss and new washers. It leaks worse than ever, now in 3 places!! One "new" pipe has it's own built in leak and now the blue canister seems to have developed leaks of it's own around the seam! I have given up on Moss! This stuff was made in India. Maybe their other products are better? (Also have tried twice to get the Moss CD with all manuals on it. Twice the CD does not run on two(2) stock computers here! Guy in Europe who does these tells me (via email) that their "copy protection scheme obvsiously is at fault"! Great! I got a printed copy of manual and will return CD's!
Based on feedback above I have ordered a complete spin on oil adapter assembly with flex pipes, etc. from John Seim and they are on the way! When installed I will attempt to return everything I bought from Moss. Wish me luck!
I have a replacement early XPAG engine with external filter in my 53 TD that is leak free (in the filter area - rear seal, a different story). I did have to have the ASL supplied casting repaired, however, to eliminate a potentially catastrophic leak that occured on my initial run. The engine uses flexible wire mesh hoses (push on style, with tiny hose clamps (belt and suspenders), and a spin on filter. My setup is similar to John Seim's (but his is nicer!).
As I posted some time earlier, a fractured pipe at speed is never pretty!
I hope you will be very pleased with his stuff (no financial interest).
|C A Schnell|
|I sell complete (hoses + banjo bolts + washers) Oil Filter Hose Kits for the TB-TC, and for the early TD. I also sell a spin on oil filter adapter for the TB-TC- early TD, as well as two versions of a spin on adapter for the late TD - TF. Please contact me for more inforation. Cheers, John.|
|my experience with john's products mirrors what the folks here are saying..very quick service and aquality product (billet turned spin on filter adapter) highly recommended. regards, tom|
|one comment i didn't see in this thread..i might have missed it, but torque the canister to filter pipe first, the canister to pump pipe second(not over tighten, but correctly torque) and finally tighten the clamp on the filter canister LAST. regards, tom|
|Tom, I guess I never mentioned it, but I did follow the torquing order you mentioned above as best I could. I even installed the Moss pipes to the Moss canister OFF the car on the workbench first (because the top banjo is nearly impossible to reach under the drive shaft). Then I installed the pipes to pump and block incrementally a few turns at a time to attempt to keep good alignment, then the clamp last. The problem is the new Moss pipes are NOT a perfect allignment to either the pump nor the block! They are nearly 1/4" off, therefore some stress must obviously be applied to get them on. Perhaps this is the cause of all my problems. Who knows - who cares? I'm switching to flexible lines!! I wonder if Moss tests these parts on a real car???|
|Ed, contact Kelvin Dodd about this. He will make things right.|
mossmotors dot com
|The pipes have to be totally passive. I had to bend mine a bit to get them to fit passively. |
To follow up on this, I received my spin on adadpter with flexible oil lines yesterday from John Seim. One hour later it's installed and running with NO LEAKS!!! Oil pressure came right up and I can finally move on to tuning my carbs for high altitude. This has to be the longest oil change in TD history - nearly 3 weeks in the making! Welecome to the learning curve I guess.
Now to get Moss to give me credit for all the other stuff that failed.
This thread was discussed between 14/10/2007 and 20/10/2007
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