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MG TD TF 1500 - Putting the cat amongst the pigeons

Useless sporting automotive and other terms

If we are to accurately reflect the British heritage of our sporting vehicles, we must first learn to use good English and the correct English terms.

Only recently, was I reminded of the grand daddy of all faux pas - “Frame-Off?? As I indicated in an earlier thread, how can one restore a car by taking the frame off. I can understand removing the body (tub, in our case) and doing a frame-up restoration, but you’ll have to admit that it would indeed be quite a feat, to restore a car by first “taking off the frame”.

Another candidate for a poorly used term - Rallye. Look it up in any English dictionary - there is no such word.

The use of the word ‘check’ for legal tender. How did this ever come about?. We all know the correct spelling!

Then there’s the word “Billion”. Everywhere in the world, a ‘billion’ is a million million, and NOT a thousand million (or 12 zeros versus 9 zeros). There’s only one place where 9 zeros for the word ‘billion’ is legal. 4,912,715,904 = four thousand, nine hundred and twelve million, seven hundred fifteen thousand, nine hundred and four; NOT 4 billion ... etc.

Now, how does one pronounce the last letter in the alphabet? There are not two “C’s” in the English alphabet.

I never did figure out how someone can get beet! ... and then there’s always “irregardless”

Yeah, I know .. I’m living in a dream world.

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.
Gordon A. Clark

Gord - I suspect you're trying to stir up a storm, but - as I'm sure you already know - this is the wrong forum for it. The TD-TF folk are so laced-up and buttoned-down that you'll probably not even get a "harrumph" in reply.

However it will be interesting to see where this goes. That rant about "billion" just goes to show that all you crazy Canadians are barely past the point of counting, "One, two, three, many."

In the best humour (got THAT one right <grin>) - - Alec
Alec Darnall

Gord.... first of all, didn't you know that a 'Frame Off' is when you go to Bob Grunau and buy one of his frames... He then takes the Frame off the wall of his garage where he has several hanging....

Alec...was going to let that 'counting' comment pass, however, as a descendant of a 'UEL' (United Empire Loyalist - we left the US after the Revolution so as to remain British), I just coudn't...

After having their 11th child, an Arkansas couple decided that that was enough (they could not afford a larger double wide.) So, the husband went to his doctor and told him that he and his wife didn't want to have any more children.
The doctor told him that there was a procedure called a vasectomy that could fix the problem. The doctor instructed him to go home, get a cherry bomb (fireworks are legal in Arkansas), light it, put it in a beer can, then hold the can up to his ear and count to 10.
The man said to the doctor, "I may not be the smartest man, but don't see how putting a cherry bomb in a beer can next to my ear is going to help me." So the couple drove to Georgia to get a second opinion.
The Georgia physician was just about to tell them about the procedure for a vasectomy when he noticed that they were from Arkansas. This doctor instead told the man to go home and get a cherry bomb, light it, place it in a beer can, hold it to his ear and count to 10.
Figuring that both learned physicians couldn't be wrong, the man went home, lit a cherry bomb and put it in a beer can. He held the can up to his ear and began to count. "1,2, 3, 4, 5 . . ." at which point he paused, placed the beer can between his legs and resumed counting on his other hand.

gblawson - TD#27667

Isn't 'Independence Day' in the States on the same day as 'Thanksgiving' in England?
Steve Gee

Hey Alex - you're close to right. Here in Québec, its spelt 'Canadiens', and from October to May, all another forms of sport are banned from the telly except motorsport of course, where F1 rules no NOSCAR here (thank God)!

As for counting, again, you're close to right ... 'one, two, three, and another, and another ..."


Gordon A. Clark

>Isn't 'Independence Day' in the States on the same day as 'Thanksgiving' in England?
'Thanksgiving' in England is what you do when someone makes you a nice cup of tea :)

---------------------------------------------------- <- my next MG web project! :)
S James


Being born and half-raised on the border of Tenn. and VA and sense you were in Gatlinburg, you know we have a language all our own . My wife, from NJ says that she dont know if I am speaking english at all.
I guess we all have some imperfections especially our love of our LBCs
John Shoemaker

My head hurts....LOL!
dave lackey

I'm glad you have more sports to choose from now GAC- when I was up there curling was on 16 hours a day, and that was it. I don't know which is more boring- curling or F1. Watching a race where the car shifts itself, and has traction control, and where the pole car leads the entire race, seems to me to be a little less sport than "NOSCAR" . ;>)

Dallas Congleton


Yup I was in Gatlinburg and I must admit I did have trouble with a few folk. But a dialect never follows the rules.

Reminds me of the time once in London of a old black American tourist from somewhere in the deep south, asking people on the street to help him translate the local Cockney English.

Sorry I beat up on our cherished BB, but I had a little time before going to bed and thought I'd raise a little hell!

Thanks for the fun.

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.

PS " ...she doesn't know'
Gordon A. Clark

"Isn't 'Independence Day' in the States on the same day as 'Thanksgiving' in England?" I have always heard that Independence Day was the day the Brits celebrated a precocious teenager leaving home. Cheers - Dave
David DuBois

F1 "little less sport than "NOSCAR".....
David Sheward

F1 "little less sport than "NOSCAR".....?????
I have worked on TV crew for both...we call one "auto racing" know, left turn, right turn, straight away...ect, others we refer to as "BB's in a toilet"!
Drag racing ...what can I say...."anybody can fire a bullet, few can steer one"! Done "Rallies" also...hmmm man and machine against the road / clock!?
To each his own "cup of tea" (or "can of bud" if you will).....still any of them beat watching grown men "scratch & spit" at the speed of sand through an hourglass! (IMHO!)ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
David 55 TF1500 #7427
David Sheward

Sorry some of youse guys are to proud to watch NASCAR. You may be missing something that at times can be exciting, once you have become familiar with a different format and group of drivers, etc.

I realize that are probably kidding some, but this sounds like a touch of snobbery and arrogance, sorta like the ole SCCA guys, rather than an objective evaluation of current motor sports. You are using stereotypes which didn't even apply in the day. You need to overlook differences as Southerners do of people from Canada and Ohio ;>)

NASCAR now has about four times as many TV crews present as Indy Car does so they must be there to cover something David. Most of the races are not even in the south anymore, and the drivers and pit crews are from all over the country.

Nascar does a couple of road races as well, and draws bigger crowds at them at the same venues "where they have to turn both ways" than Indy cars, Champ Cars, and certainly F1. The recent race at Infineon Raceway had way better racing through the esses than open wheel cars which immediately go off course and cause another yellow, if "rubbed".

The Busch series, which is the junior league of NASCAR filled the F1 facility at Mexico City, and plans are being mad for them to go to Canada- must be some fans out there somewhere.

NASCAR is making more money overall in the US than FI, Indy Car, Champ Car (or whatever it is called this year) combined. Many of the current drivers were originally in the program for open wheel, before it self destructed from within, and then from lack of fans.

Nascar speeds approach two hundred miles per hour, which "ain't" bad for 3400 lb. cars, as opposed to 1400 lbs for open wheel.

The races have more than one or two cars that are competitive on the track.

I wonder though - if Nascar is so easy and just for the good ole boys, why No F1 or previous Indy type car driver has ever done really well. Will be interesting to see how Juan Pablo Montoya does next year.

You ought to really watch a couple races when no one is looking - you might like it. ;>)

"a former Indy Car fanatic who is still waiting for something more exciting than Danika, and watches wherever the action is- NASCAR, Indy Car, or Champ car, but has given up on F1"
Dallas Congleton


I attended a NASCOR race at Homestead a few years ago and found it dreadfully boring - turn left, step on the gas, yellow flag, green flag, turn left, step on the gas, turn left, yellow flag, etc. The guys behind me were stripped to the waist and had several cases of beer, and were smoking enormous cigars. I have no idea why they came in the first place. They were loud and obnoxious. I left before it was over. I found no entertainment value in it as it was not the type of motorsport that I enjoy.

Real racers, race in the rain.

Sorry, I realise its big in the US and I'm sure you won't see my point of view and I realise I'm very much in the minority. But in open wheel racing there's lot of full-range revving, gearboxes that are worked to the limit, left and right hand turns and extreme braking. Plus, I enjoy a day in the green of the hills of most circuits where I can take a picnic lunch to enjoy with my grandchildren, between races. Also, strategy plays a big part, unlike the excessive use of the yellow flag every time a car goes off course. As I said - boring.

I'm not condeming NASCOR, its just that I don't understand it.

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.
Gordon A. Clark

NASCAR? No thanks.

I attended almost every race at Atlanta International Raceway in the 60's. Lived within walking distance to the track!!! Great fun! Even more fun going to school the next day in your own Ford or Chevy that was very similar to the one that won on Sunday!!!

Now? Those cars are NOT like what you can buy. Not even a single piece!!! So, where is the brand identification??? Simply not the same anymore. Nowadays it's the drivers vs drivers....zzzzzzzzzzzz.

Boring.....and absolutely ridiculous when you think about it. It is really no different than sitting on I-285 around Atlanta (did that with my broken down MGB once).

At least Formula 1 is blindingly fast.

Sure miss the good old days of NASCAR. I don't even watch or listen anymore.

Now, back to MG's...does anyone know where one can buy some old footage of MG's racing at Monza, Lemans, etc???? Now, THAT would be interesting!
dave lackey

Just an aside regarding F1...which I watch every race... Michael Shumacher announced his retirement this morning (thank God) and perhaps we will have a bit more excitement next year.
Loved Champ car racing until the IRL screwed it all up... will watch Nascar but only for the pile the Petit LeMans and LeMans and sports car series...and love vintage racing ...! Lets see, thats 1,2,3 and another and another!
gblawson - TD#27667

Well done, GB - that's the one I threatened to tell down in the "Horizon" section. Trouble is, I know some fathers of large families that would handle the counting *exactly* that way (and some mothers, too!).

Good thread - occasionally you've just GOT to jump overboard and get wet, ya' know?

Cheers, y'all - - Alec
Alec Darnall

I agree Gord Clark, some sections of the stands are probably not the place for everyone to be - sorta like an English football game.
A picnic is great but you are seeing only one turn.
If you want to see any form of racing, and many other sports, it is best seen on TV, such as your TSN, with the large numbers of cameras, and play by play (to a fault).
TV also isolates us from the unwashed. ;>)

I'm not just defending NASCAR from elitist. The facts are the fan base has increased to over 75 million people, including a large number of Canadians. Races at Michigan routinely draw upwards of 30,000 fans from across the border. Michigan seats 125,00 so roughly 25% are your neighbors. It's estimated that 10 per cent of all tickets sold to Nextel Cup races are bought by Canadians, and you don't have track yet.

Viewer ratings on TSN have been solid since day one and continue to grow, consistently topping the audiences for open-wheel racing. This is in spite of the fact that the mainstream Canadian media often disparages the series, fawning over the open-wheel events of Formula 1 and CART/Champ car.

I guess some of the snowbirds got contaminated when they came down in the winter ;>)

"who is more open minded as he ages"
Dallas Congleton

You certainly woke them up. Of course that is prior to your annual sabatical hibernation. See you in the spring if not in the mattress.
Sandy said that
Sandy Sanders

I am afraid that I have a very jaundiced view of NASCAR as they are trying their best to get the taxpayers of Kitsap County in Washington state to build a track on the Kitsap peninsula, an area that is accessible by one four lane road across the Tacoma Narrows bridge, two lane roads and ferry boats to try and handle 80,000 fans (their estimates) coming and going. The big selling point is that "the taxes on the income from the races will pay for the track", while not bothering to say that the profits will go into their pockets - no thank you. Cheers - Dave
David DuBois

Dave: How it would be possible to build a track with that limited access is nutty thinking. Texas Motor Speedway near me clogs all major and minor roads on race days, with 5 and 6 hour backups, and this place is a maze of Interstate Highways and other freeways.

On opening day of TMS, we were ferrying in VIPs via helicopter, and the traffic jams I saw from the air were something I had never seen before in this area, or anywhere for that matter. Good luck :-)

L Karpman

David, is it NASCAR that is planning the site , or local developers and the local appointed representatives? The spiel sounds just like our local developers trying to justify the rape of waterfront, except they also promise beau coup new jobs.

I don't think NASCAR owns any tracks but tries organize and schedule races where the potential market is.

This certainly doesn't sound like a good location, like the one proposed by developers in the middle of New York city.

I agree and sympathize with both of you about the traffic, but it re-enforces the facts of current racing popularity, wheter we like it or not.

Dallas Congleton

What? You mean I'm not a Billionaire! Damn, guess I'll have to work a few more years instead of retiring now. How disappointing.

Derek Nicholson

"to proud to watch NASCAR" ...Certainly not...(wife and I watch WWF on occasion as well!)
The other nite we watched a "wrasslar" beat another guy to a bloody pulp with a baseball bat wrapped in barbed-wire that just "happen to be stored under the ring"! LOL :-)!!!
I grew up watching my dad and uncle race a 40 ford on a dirt track....(and then we drove the car home...or were towed with a rope if the engine failed during the race!) I do kind of miss that kind of "real racing" !
It's all "entertainment" and the more of it that is televised the happier I am ...(I make my living doing so!).
"Too Proud" way....I took the money televising "lady midget mudd wrestling"....and I would do a "dwarf-toss" in a heart-beat just so I could say I did it!
What would I love to "drive"? F1!
David 55 TF1500 #7427
Davbid Sheward

Dallas - You are correct, it is not NASCAR, but rather the outfit that builds the race tracks and ownes the race tracks (I forget the name). Cheers - Dave
David DuBois

I've been absent from these pages for some time whilst I work on my MG M Type but this thread reminds what I am mising - lots of good advice interlaced with plenty of good natured banter. Perhaps some of you guys from the colonies can explain what NASCAR and CART actually mean. The only thing I know about them is that when you send your drivers over to compete in F1 they quickly return to the States with their tail between their legs. When a British driver goes over to you he wins both your campionship and becomes F1 champion in the same year!

Cheers to all

Jan T
J Targosz

Quite right Jan!
I suspect 'though, on the other side of the pond they may be glad that you have so much more work to do on your MG M Type!


HJ Oldham

Welcome back Jan - good point

You must be speaking of Nigel Mansell but I think it was 92 for F1 and then 93 for Indy type cars, which included the Indy 500. Both he and Dan Wheldon are both great drivers, and Dan made a good show this year.
Not defending American or Canadian drivers, but one of the reasons they haven't done very well is one of the failings of F1, dominance by only one manufacturer- of course now that they have fired Schumacher we'll see if it was all equipment. :>)

CART = Championship Auto Racing Team, formerly USAC
(United States Auto Club) and is now called CHAMP car (short for Championship Car)

We also have the Indy Racing League (IRL) which split from CART a few years ago, and created much of the current problems.

NASCAR = National Association of Stock Car Auto Racing (as someone pointed out they are no longer "stock cars" but special built racing cars, with only the motor block built by the "manufacturer")

Dallas Congleton

Speaking of a billion - the following just appeared in my eMail Inbox. This is talking about the Colonial version of a billion, and not the arcane and obviously wrong Continental version. And, I assume the government they speak of is the "Murrican" one, also:

"The next time you hear someone in government, or big business, rather casually use a number that includes the word 'billion', think about the actual volume of a 'billion'.

A billion is a difficult number to comprehend. One advertising agency did a rather good job of putting that figure into perspective in one of its releases:

A billion seconds ago it was 1974.

A billion minutes ago was 74 years after Jesus died.

A billion hours ago our ancestors were living in the Stone Age.

A billion days ago no creature walked the earth on two feet.

But...a billion dollars, lasts only 8 hours and 20 minutes at the rate our government spends it."

I'd sure love to TRY to spend it that fast <grin> - - Alec

Alec Darnall

Regarding drivers winning both a F1 and US races at the same time - of particular interest to T Type owners is that a TF owner became a F1 winner. The late Denny Hulme (from New Zealand) won in the F1 in about '67 driving a Ferrari and the CanAm in around '67-68 in a McLaren when Bruce McLaren commenced building his own cars. Denny Hulme commenced is motor racing career in 1954 with a new mgtf which his father funded. Bruce McLaren (also from Auckland, NZ) started in early '50's with an Austin 7. McLaren unfortunately never won an F1 but won at Le Mans in '66 in a Ford GT40. I believe that Denny Hulme's wife still has her late husband's TF which has since been restored.
Peter Falconer

Good point! Maybe you know for sure (I don't)....but is it true that most of the engines in these "Cameros" are actually 550 Hemi's these days?
NASCAR = National Association of Stock Car Auto Racing
Maybe they should change the name to:
NARMCTC = National Association of Rapid Moving Corporate Television Comercials!
David 55 TF1500 #7427
David Sheward

Well now aint this fun. I remember driving my MGA to Elkhart Lake in the '60's and watching SCCA racing with cars that drove to the track and you could buy one at a dealer and go racing. I also very vivedly remember the day when Jimmy Clark ran at INDY in the Cooper and all the good old folks were laughing. I get dizzy and fall down watching cars running in a constant circle. Probably do to my old age and lack of oxygen but I only enjoy watching Vintage Racing. Ya'al have a nice life!
Greg & Grimm
G.J. Cenzer

G & G,

I remember the win in 1965 by Jimmy Clark very well indeed... I was a young Marine in Chu Lai, Vietnam at the time. I'm originally from Gourock, Scotland and my fellow Marines just called me "Scotty"... Anyway, with a Scottish driver competing at INDY I took a lot of good natured "abuse" like his kilt would fly up and cause him to crash... When he won the race it made my day... As a Marine in Vietnam there was very little to "make your day"...


Rod "Scotty" Macleod - TF 1500 - HDB46/6798 ("Molly")
Rod Macleod


The "Billion" you are referring to, is that an American Billion (9 zeros) or an International Billion (12 zeros)?

In Canada, like the rest of the world, the LEGAL definition is, by the SI (Système International - old = Metric) still a million million, or 12 zeros. As far as I know, only in the US is a "billion" a legal 9 zeros, or a thousand million.

Unfortunately because of our proximity both geographically and economically, we in Canada get caught up, and one is never sure which system is being quoted; and there are still some old court cases on the books, unresolved over this issue.

... never know what you're going to learn on this BB.

But I'm still learning. Now I know what NASCAR means (Sorry, I didn't have the letters right), but these are "STOCK" cars? What a farce! Looks to me as just another excuse for the "good 'ole boys" to quaff a little more of "the sponsor's product" whether its in the stands or in the pits.

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.
Gordon A. Clark

Let's do some more myth busting. When the premier race track in the States isn't being used for motor racing it's used as a factory to make house bricks. In the UK though, when the Silverstone GP has finished the track and facilities are used for the greatest motoring event in the world - the Silverstone International MG Weekend.


Jan T
J Targosz

Speaking of MG weekends... turns out next June's MG racing weekend is going to be at Mosport... think that would make a good track (it just sits there between races) for those close enough to meet at????? What say????
(There again, its only 3 hours from here....)
gblawson - TD#27667

Gord - that's the "American Billion" - the one with nine zeroes. Which brings up another question: What does the term "Trillion" mean to the International world?

In our parlance it's Million, Billion, Trillion, Quadrillion, Quintillion, etc. for 6, 9, 12, 15, 18, etc. zeroes. Does the "other side" use these same terms for 6, 12, 18, 24, and 30 zeroes?

Thank Goodness, a Google's a Google, the world around (till that software company hijacked it!).

Not a NAStyCAR fan, either - - Alec
Alec Darnall


A "Trillion" in US numbers, is a million million or what is known internationally, as a Billion with 12 zeros.

A "Trillion" internationally, has 24 zeros.

Only after WW II, did the US invent a new numbering system. Today that International system is referred to as Systéme International (SI) and goes as follows:-
Thousand = 1,000
Million = 1,000,000
Thousand Million = 1,000,000,000
Billion = 1,000,000,000,000
Thousand Billion = 1,000,000,000,000,000
Million Billion = 1,000,000,000,000,000,000
Thousand Million Billion add another 3 zeros
... and so on.
Finally, a Billion Billion = a Trillion

You can see how completely different the original system is, to the system invented by the US. I have no idea why this was done. But then again, Americans have always done what they feel is in the best interest of their people and totally disregard international conventions. Kyoto is another convention that the US has chosen to ignore. I'm not saying this critically ... its just the way it is.

You can see too, why people, educated in the SI system, find a US deficit in the "trillions" an an absolutely incomprehensible debt!

The real problem comes in the international press when these large numbers are quoted, one has to know what system is being used when reading them.

I believe that Canada has capitulated to the US system, and I suppose that makes sense, but legally, we are still bound to the SI system. Confusing for all .. to say the least.

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.
Gordon A. Clark

Like I will ever have to worry about counting up to a Billion, and by the way, I would take it either me it would just be "Holy S..... thats a lot of Lucas fuel pumps"
gblawson - TD#27667

"Kyoto is another convention that the US has chosen to ignore. I'm not saying this critically ... its just the way it is."

The MG marque lives on - in China. Now MGs and MG/Rover/Austin cars and parts can be produced "economically" where they couldn't be in the UK. Not having to spend "billions/millions (take your pick) on greenhouse gas emission control technology is a real cost saver :-)

The U.S. should have taken the route China took. Sign and ratify the treaty, and oh yeah, ensure that they were "excluded" from compliance. Now that's a real sweetheart deal. Australia, like the U.S., has not ratified the treaty as well.

What this has to do with millions of billions, or cats and pigeons, I'm not sure, but thought it was noteworthy :-)
L Karpman

Thanks, guys - Interesting stuff! -- -- Alec
Alec Darnall

Gordon L - "..... thats a lot of Lucas fuel pumps" Since Lucas never made a fuel pump, I doubt that you could get any for that price or any price ;) Cheers - Dave
David DuBois

Just a test Dave...just a test... Knew you were paying attention.... (God, shoot me now!!!!)
gblawson - TD#27667

This thread was discussed between 10/09/2006 and 14/09/2006

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