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MG TD TF 1500 - Radiator Top house clamp.
|Another of those interesting finds from looing at the Factory photo's
This is a still I took off the MG Video of the Factory. The car is an early TD based on the Generator.
Note the upper radiator hose. It appears to be smooth and not the cloth outer covering look. It also has a solid radiator hose clamp. In enlarging it, the clamp does not appear to be a gear wind clamp.
I also looked at MG Y cars online. They all have a flat band clamp. I put out an inquiry to a Y owner friend to see if this was correct for factory. If so, that could explain the difference in the pictures.
A factory photo on Chris's web page clearly has the two wire type hose clamp.
In looking at the vendors, most carry the two-wire type, but NTG has the two wire and a flat steel clamp.
|Here is the second factory picture.|
What are the thoughts on clamps?
Also, it looks like the upper hose was smooth rubber. I have one in my spares that, while not usable, it has a slightly different look to the center bulge than does the replacement one I have.
Was the smooth rubber the factory? Was the cloth coated a aftermarket part?
Here's a close-up photo I took of what I believe to be the original "Jubilee"clip when I fitted one of my top silicone hoses recently during the heater installation. This hose clip is a very useful tool indeed as I have used it as a piston ring compressor when replacing rings. It is wide enough to compress all three rings when you push the piston in from below and out above the deck.
|The two wire clamp is the original Bruce. I believe that all of the hoses were originally fitted with these except for the two Jubilee clips on the oil bath air filter to rocker cover hose. These original round headed Jubilee clips are very rare as the later clips had hex heads. Rob G is the guru on clips. Cheers|
Peter TD 5801
Are you sure?- because illustration A20 on page A.18 in the workshop manual shows two "Jubilee" style clips on the top hose. Mine certainly look like they are 67 years old.
|Hopefully Rob will chime in here Declan. In the barn finds on Chris Couper's site all the pics that I've seen show the wire clips. But it is difficult to be really definitive about anything on these cars, as we all know. Apparently the Jubilee originals had round slot heads, not hex. If that is accurate it then suggests that your clips aren't original.
Check out pages 6, 17, and 37 of the TD Driver's Handbook. Wire clips are evident at the top and bottom of the top radiator hose in all of these illustrations. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
|Illustration is one fact but photos from the factory is the other. I guess they took what they got at that moment out of the box.|
You could very well be right and it would not surprise me.
|I spoke directly to Jubilee when ordering these clips and they told me they haven't made the cheese head clips for many years, all their clips look like this. Had to order more than I needed but sold the rest off at my cost to someone else. I think the minimum order is 10. I have a pic of Matthews original clips and are cheese head screws. PJ|
|Is the one in the photo from Declan Burns, with slots all the way through, made from stainless steel - which I don't think MG would have used.|
|Declan, I'm pretty sure that is a recent production clamp and not original. All old and new Jublilee clips I have seen have much finer slots cut into them and are overall different. Sure looks like banded type clamps in Bruce's shot, so they may have been used at some point. George|
|George Butz III|
|To get to Bruce's other question, the finish of the main radiator hose:
The hose was smooth. I have seen two samples. One absolutely smooth and the other very slightly textured but generally smooth.
The sock hoses were only on the TF. Note that the smaller hoses had a texture, not unlike what you would see from fabric tape.
I am of the opinion that most (if not nearly all) production cars had the wire clamps for the water hoses. The video could have been a pilot car or some other anomaly.
This pictures shows an original Jubilee clamp on the air cleaner hose. Note it is not stainless, has cheese heads and the grooves on the strap do not cut all of the way through the band.
|The newer Jubilee clip.|
|While we are on the subject of Jubilee clips.... I want to order a complete set of Jubilee’s for each of my TD’s. Can anyone list the metric sizes needed for the air cleaner, upper hose, lower hoses and bypass hose and for the Arnolt heater hoses. |
|W A Chasser|
|The Pathe video TD has the scuttle hoop, so not a particularly early car. Just an example of MG sourcing the clamps they could get hold of.|
|TFs had a cloth covered top radiator hose.
Now with regard to Radiator TF hose clips, double wired type originally including the Bypass Branch Pipe.
However,the metal link pipe going from the Rocker Cover to the front Vokes Air Cleaner had two(2) short rubber pieces attached along with four(4) Jubilee O Size clips. They are rarely correct on restored cars. As Chris has indicated, originally round cheese head, slot with a plain band on the top area of the band and shallow, non perforated drive indents were installed.(the metal pipe in engine colour red).
Reference to the TF Owners Handbook only confuses the detail. This handbook has so many inaccuracies e.g. non octagonal instrument panel knobs. It also depicts double wired clips on the Rocker Cover to Air Cleaner which may have been used on the prototypes but were probably later thrown in the bin as leakage occurred from the rubber hose attached to the Rocker Cover !
The TF Service Parts Manual correctly depicts the Jubillee type clips used.
The original TD Air Cleaner I suspect has the same Jubillee clips as the TF Rocker Cover to Air Cleaner Jubilee clips.
|I love learning things. Now I learned what a Jubilee clip is.
I have been using a photo enhancement program to look at the factory pictures. In the one I posted, there are the same teeth in the center of the clip that are in the Jubilee clip.
I am betting that my inquiry from the Y group is going to show they used the Jubilee clip. And it also then would fit that early TD's could have had the Jubilee Clip at least on the upper radiator hose.
Unless I can find some original round head Jubilee Clips, I can live with the hex head.
Chris. When you get a chance to come over, I will show you the upper hose I have. It could be an original.
I lost count on the th number of years I spent searching the world for two(2) sets (a total of 8 clips) of the correct, original Jubilee O Size stamped clips which now have been applied to both our 1250 and the 1500.
I am always pleased how, over the years, the MG fraternity looks out for other enthusiasts. The clips seem harder to find compared to rocking horse s... !
Perhaps send out a request for the original clips.
|Rob, here's mine. PJ|
|May I suggest that you are all right. Often in factories stock would run low and the foreman would send a lad to the ironmongers to get what he could. Years ago there was a discussion concerning whether screws were flat head etc. An old boy who worked at Abingdon said they fitted what they could find or get from Ballards (agricultural engineers) whose premises were a few hundred yards from the plant.|
|R J Marshall|
|On Ock Street if I remember correctly, not far from Marcham Rd, so the story holds good.|
|I heard the same story many years ago and to me, it makes a lot of sense. Holding up production for a few screws, bolts or other small bits would be nonsense if a fix could be had locally. Keep that line moving! PJ|
|I captured a number of pictures from the "Safety Fast" Pathe video. The video pictures are very clear. Much better than the factory still photo's|
The video is supposedly from 1948. The TD's have slotted wheels.
And one more thing. Look at the ID tag. The very early TD's had the tag in the same place as the YT. around 11:00 on the flywheel cover. This indicates they used the same block and tag location. It looks like this changed in the 500's or so of the TD's
Just to share some other info on wire type radiator hose clamps I found while looking through mine. The old clamp is one that came off of my early TD (note the round head 2BA thread screw). The newer one came from Moss a few years ago (note the hex head 10-24 thread screw).
I'm pretty sure the original wire types were round head 2BA screw configuration that no one seems to provide these days, at least not that I found.
|Another example of how Moss seems to go 90% of the way to original and then drops the ball. This is why I think Doug Pelton got into the business. Going around fixing that last 10%.|
|Unsure why, but the above post RE: Moss was not posted by me.|
This thread was discussed between 14/03/2019 and 17/03/2019
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