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MG TD TF 1500 Remote gear lever noises & seatbelts BBS discussion at MG-Cars.net
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MG TD TF 1500 - Remote gear lever noises & seatbelts
| My first venture into the T-series world, AKA TD2/27890, has progressed from jackstands to the road, and it looks like my core plug replacements were successful. Now maybe I can address the next two problems: 1. The remote gear change is really noisy. Nothing I can't fix with my right knee, but I'd like a more permanent fix. I suspect bushes on the "operating shaft" (quoting the terms in the Moss catalog) which might necessitate a visit to my local friendly machine shop. But am I overlooking something? Is there somebody who reconditions these and sells them exchange? 2. My wife won't ride in the car until it has seat belts. Right now, that's OK because if she hears the noises from the shift remote, she'll be afraid to leave the driveway anyway. Now, I HAVE ALREADY read a ton of stuff about seat belts on the BBS archives. But what's the current thinking on this? ' Think wife accept two-point belts if I can satisfy her that 3-point ones are not worth the hassle that I've read about in the archives. The truth is that I'd rather have 3-point belts myself - unless I am convinced otherwise. Once again, thanks in advance... Allen |
| Allen Bachelder |
| allen, as you have seen, the seatbelts have been exhaustively discussed and the info is in the archives. my 2 cents..i used to install 3 point systems in aircraft. the FAA would not approve of a 3 point installation unless the shoulder harness was anchored ABOVE the shoulder of the user. you would need to install a roll bar to get solid structure above the drivers shoulder in a TD. i did install a two point system in my car to appease my bride. my personnal opinion is we are strapping ourselves to a 50 year old, solid steering column, wooden framed roadster with no roll bar. i do not believe the seatbelts in my car will do anything more than keeping the bulk of my flesh with the wreckage. any significant front end damage will drive that solid steering column right through my chest. a roll over will crunch down the wooden framed tub and me with it. having said all of that i believe there are risks in all we do...some of the fun stuff is more risky than other stuff. i accept the risks involved in driving a 50 year old, single-circuit drum brake roadster in traffic. i say, "drive 'em if you got 'em" regards, tom |
| tm peterson |
| allen, i almost for got. as long as the shaft holes are not worn to the point of needing to be bushed and alingn bored you can recondition the remote shifter with a few simple tools. no need to try and find someone who reconditions them. regards, tom |
| tm peterson |
| There is an anti-rattle device on the remote shaft - fix it. Use a stiffer spring if need be. There is a second anti-rattle device in the end of the remote shaft - another spring and ball that leans on the small end of the stick - fix it. Also if the main spring retaining the shift lever is weak it aggravates rattles. The main point of seat belts is that they hold you in the car, and keep you where you need to be to control it - and you. I have a dead Rover, crashed because the driver was not wearing the belt and crashed in a minor off road event, because he was no longer behind the wheel. I have a box of XKE parts that were never picked up because the driver was killed when he drove off road and was thrown from the car, which was lightly scratched by some bushes. Restraint in a hard crash is certainly desirable, but it is not the common event, by far. You cannot install a three point without an above shoulder anchor point, since the belt will just fall off your arm. Otherwise the same idea applies - a bad three point is better than no three point. I like rollbars! Congrats on your first drive! FRM |
| FR Millmore |
| Hi Allen, Further to FRM's comments,you may also need to build up the size of the 'ball' located on the end of the Gear Lever. Once the Gear Lever is stripped of chrome,you can weld up the 'ball' and turn it down on a lathe for a perfect fit into its housing.Then rechrome.Rattle often occurs between this ball and the fitting it goes into. Also,in the Archives,you will find reference to my procedure for the fitting of a Nitrile Ring around the hemi-spherical ball of the Gear Lever. This only requires a groove to be made (using a small lathe) so that a Nitrile ring can be fitted to stay in position during gear changes.This really is the key to quiet Remote Control mechanisms on T Types. Seat belts-nah ! Rob.Grantham TF3719("Aramis"),TF9177("Athos"). |
| R GRANTHAM |
| The aluminum housing was so worn in my car that the shift lever ball was almost out of the "socket" when moved to the extreme. John Twist at University Motors bushed and repaired my housing. The bushings are extra-long, so they should last many years. Since this was designed as an extension with all of the balls and springs, there are obviously general resonance issues inherent in the design. Gotta go with the lap belt. Vast majority of people killed are thrown from the vehicle. Used to ride with my dad to calls in the ER when a kid- universally the people tossed were really dead, those remaining inside the car still alive. George |
| George Butz |
| The shift lever is held in place with two pins in the remote housing. The housing is peened over the heads of the pins. Grinding is not a very good way to get them out as often you will remove too much material. Forcing them with a pair of large screwdriver blades as a lever is best. I found that after rechroming my gear shift lever that reversing its position 180 degrees was helpful in achieving a good fit. I think it is rare that the remote shaft needs to be rebushed. Not only do shoulder harnesses fall off your shoulder unless anchored above, but they also place most of the pressure in a crash on the top of your shoulder, than across your chest. The result will be a snapped clavicle as your body goes forward, and the bight (loop) of the shoulder harness will allow your body to impact the wheel anyway. Although Fletcher has some rather eloquent points about seat belts preserving the driving position under normal conditions allowing the driver to do what he does, i.e. drive, my ‘spidey sense’ is so elevated while driving my tiny and fragile car among the SUVs and 18 wheelers, and the driving itself is so precise on country lanes, that I simply don't lack the attention to keep myself on the road, and by extension, in the driver seat. Besides, once seated, there is no where for my large frame to go, especially with a passenger next to me. Keeping the distractions to a minimum, and paying attention to driving, and keeping all the systems operating are much better ways to enhance safety than adding lapbelts. If I were to mount lapbelts, I would use Schach's method, but forego the very dangerous three point system he advocates. My Humble Opinion. warmly, dave |
| Dave Braun |
| Wow, I hardly turn my back to catch a few hours of sleep and already I have six really useful responses. Thanks all. I think you're collectively telling me that two-point belts are preferable, when combined with three-point caution! If I install a rollbar, I'll consider three-point at that time. I'll have to study the remote unit carefully in order to understand exactly what you're all saying. I have a general idea of what's in there from playing with later boxes. One real advantage of living in Michigan as opposed to my former home in Virginia is proximity to John Twist. Again, thanks! Allen |
| Allen Bachelder |
| Allen, Dave Braun is spot-on re the seat belt mounting. Horst Schach's method is pretty good. If you don't have a copy of his book, its still available from Britbooks, etc. Gord Clark Rockburn, Qué. |
| Gordon A. Clark |
| Allen, a picture of the underside of the remote control  |
| Dave Braun |
| Good Morning Allen FRM is correct on the anti-rattle spring and ball located in the remote control shaft. You can add more spring or try to stretch your existing spring and see if this works. You need to pull the cotter pin to access the spring. On your seat belts and your wife, mine would not ride in mine without seat belts. Even with them she is reluctant to ride in the MG. I try not to drive on the inter state because only doing 55, everyone wants to run you off the road, especially the big trucks. I installed Schach’s three point hook up, figuring this is better than nothing. Having said that I tend to drive the TD differently than my other cars. I’m always looking ahead and try to anticipate what may happen in front of me. I leave extra space to stop, kind of like they taught us in drivers ed. When I’m tailgated doing the speed limit, I pull over and let them pass at the first opportunity. When they fly by me in their MB or BMW or Honda I laugh and ask myself ”Yea, but will they be restoring you in 50 years? I don’t think so” John |
| John |
| Allen- Lot of good stuff here, and I can think of more tricks to fix the rattle - you know one place you could send it! Dave and all - If you think your "spidey sense" will save you, you have no sense. I'll put mine up against anybody, any day, but: When the deer jumped out at windscreen level, from behind and right, I had to decide if I wanted it coming through the screen into Maureen's face, or to take risky evasive action. The resulting quick barrel roll took all the glass out of the car, but left us both A-OK - "I'm all right, I don't need to go to the hostipital in an ambleeance". She didn't even loose the feather and the change she was holding. The afore mentioned Rover pilot was minding his own business when an oncoming car turned up in his lane on a blind turn - in avoiding it he hit a pothole on the shoulder which launched the driver out of his seat, which launched the car over the guard rail. The XKE was a similar situation. The family killed in that awful Duesenberg crash a year or so, in Michigan I think, would probably all have been fine if they had stayed in the car. I spent a lot of time at racetracks as a kid - the first serious injury I saw was a guy who "outsmarted" the tech inspectors re belt mountings. They used to kill sometimes 3 or 4 sprint/big car drivers at a single race meet as routine - lap belts alone cut that way back, even before cages and harnesses and helmets. A broken clavicle or even a spinal compression fracture is far better than Oak tree face driven through your body into your back. Much better than your girlfriend smeared out across a field by your car after she went through the windshield and the car landed on her at speed - that happened to an acquaintance in Jr high school - he bought the brand new special order HP Ford 406 in white, was wearing the factory supplied driver side belt, and had been too cheap to pay the extra $5 or 10 for the optional passenger belt. I consider all you guys as friends and family, I do not need to loose any of you, and I will berate, lecture, insult or scream at you to keep yer ugly face around. Love ya, FRM |
| FR Millmore |
| Oh yeah, one more. I was going through Philadelphia in the big truck, on I95, late night, very light traffic. A fast car came up past, doing about 80, flying straight and level - obviously a guy and his 12 yr old son, out in the Corvette. I95 goes over a big bridge at the old Naval yard, comes down, up over a little rise, and makes a slight bend left. As I came over the bridge, I could see something confusing ahead. Over the little rise, there was crap all over the road, Corvette on its side on the right. It was pretty obvious he had cranked it up, come over the rise airborne, and tried to turn the car with no weight on the wheels. When it landed it went hard left, he over corrected, put it on its left side and hit the guard rail - after it threw the boy out of the car, which squished him against the rail. I parked the truck crossways to block traffic, and found father and son, both dead and mangled, both out of a battered but probably drivable car. With factory belts and harness unused. I was still there when the mother showed up in a cop car and ran screaming across the road to her family. FRM |
| FR Millmore |
| Allen, When I first put my TF on the road I was more than a little alarmed at the noise and rattle of the gear shifter, and yes, laying my knee against it solved the problem as long as I could keep the leg from going asleep. A friend suggested a gearbox flush and refill with RedLine MT90. (You'll find it in the archives whenever gear box fluid topics come up.) In my case it completely eliminated the noises and rattles, and made the shifts much easier to accomplish. I'm not suggesting that this is the fix-all for your particular problem, you may well have some worn parts, but it certainly corrected a similar situation in my car, and might be worth a try before tearing things apart. Gene |
| Gene Burgess |
| I am going to suggest one other thing to try prior to pulling the tower. Change your timing. My TD has had a severe shifter rattle ever since I bought it in 1973. Even after a full rebuilt of the transmission and engine, and all new mounts (Motor and transmission) Only thing the stops the rattle is to assure the car is only set at TDC and static timed, If I adjust the distributer it will start rattling in the shifter lever. |
| BEC Cunha |
| Once again, guys, you've exceeded all expectations - even for this group! Gord, I do have the Horst Schach book but had forgotten it contained material on seat belt installation. Upon review, it does look like a solid, if rather bothersome, way to install lap-belts. I'm not looking forward to the "some disassembly required" to properly install those inboard mounts through the driveshaft tunnel, but it just might beat the heck out of the consequences of not doing so. Dave, many thanks for the picture of the underside of the remote. I think this picture is worth more than the proverbial 1,000 words. One assembly that cannot be seen in that picture is the cap, spring, washer and plunger assembly identified as 45,46,47, and 48 in the Moss catalog on p 14. Is the purpose of this to provide the detent for neutral? That is, does the plunger ride in a groove on the operating shaft? Can this, too, rattle when any of these parts is worn and the spring weak? How about the spring and ball (Moss illustration, p 14, #38,39) in the actuating shaft lever (#37). All of this in addition to the Gene: is there general consensus these days on Redline MT 90? Seems I read some controversy about using it on one of the BBS threads, but that may have been in an MGB. I'm prone to shotgun approaches, which do deprive one of discovering exactly what the cause was, but knowing the cause is not so important as knowing that if I replace x,y, and z, flush and use such and such oil, and set the timing to da-da-da, the rattle will be gone. Maybe I replace a few more parts than really need replacing, but on a 54 year-old piece of machinery, the more wear points I attend to the better I'm going to feel anyway. Bruce, I recall reading about the timing issue you mention. But I may not have followed the thread long enough to hear of the explanation for this. Again, if it works, it needs no explanation. Tell me it was not just pinking sounds that resonated up through the gear lever. 8^) Fletcher, I definitely will attend to both of the springs you mention - especially now that I know where they are and what they look like. Hopefully, I'll get it without outsourcing the work, but if all else fails, yes, I know where to turn. Thanks. Rob, where can I source the nitrile ring? Tom, George, and John, thanks for the support and good common-sense driving tips. Which leads me to one more question. When I step on the pedal between the throttle and the clutch, the car seems to slow down, as if there is some additional friction on the drivetrain somewhere. Since I cannot think of any other use for this pedal, I think it could be quite useful if I could figure out a way to intensify this effect. Outside of rock-solid maintenance and inspection of all components connected to this pedal, is there a commonly accepted upgrade that might improve the velocity-retardant properties inherent in its use? Thanks, thanks, thanks! Allen |
| Allen Bachelder |
| Oh crap! Part of one of my sentences got mysteriously erased. Oh well, the message is still too long anyway... Allen |
| Allen Bachelder |
| Allen- The parts you numbered are the parts I mentioned. And they are just anti-rattle bits, not detents. The nitrile ring is just an O ring; some cars, but I don't recall which, have this as OE, easy fix. And you can do the same thing on the small ball end, or with a bit of machine work use the nylon ball sleeve of a B or Mini/Spridget. The center footrest is there to give the feet (alternately) a rest from backpedaling, and to act as a heatsink for hot soles after attempting to stop. It seems to be common for T series cars to seize some or most of the many wheel cylinders, likely from sitting a lot. Once you free up all those, and get it adjusted, the thing actually shows significant slowing effects. Otherwise any improvements are as I posted long ago on the Magnette drums. FRM |
| FR Millmore |
| Allen, it is very true retarding the timing stops the rattle. However, setting statically at TDC is likely too retarded using today's gasoline and performance will not be as crisp. Brakes: the wheel cyls have steel pistons and aluminum or pot metal bodies with no external boots or seal. Moisture condenses or collects, rusting the piston and pitting the bore of the housing. There is usually a ring of pits right where the seal runs, as well as deep linear scratches from extracting the piston. Frequently pistons are frozen tightly. Search the archives for volumes on this. Bottom line: a TD or TF with proper brakes stops very easily and well with minimal pedal effort. The master cyls also gunk up and just rust and nearly sieze. Lastly, the linings may be well oiled and lubed (esp. the rears). Hobby car or not, you have to have excellent brakes, tires, and steering. Then you hopefully won't need your belts! FRM is correct that all springs, balls are just anti-rattle. The "neutral detent" is effectively a slot in the three shifter rail ends (1-2, 3-4, and reverse) that the flipper at the end of the shifter rod fits into. The click detents are from grooves in each rail and a spring and ball from the top tranny cover. George |
| George Butz |
| Allen, I think what you are referring to is that some transmission fluids have or are missing additives that hurt the bronze synchronizers. The RedLine MT90 says it won't hurt them in any way right on its label. Gene |
| Gene Burgess |
| George, you are correct. I advance it just a hair to work better with our fuel. I get a little rattle. |
| BEC Cunha |
| Fletcher, Thanks for your kind words, and your kind actions in the past. I will endevor to be around a long while, and so reconsider my lap belt plans. Allen, More thousands of words: http://travelaire.photosite.com/MGTDRebuild/tranny/Remote_Control_and_cover.html I put a series of pictures in for you to look at. dave |
| Dave Braun |
| Allen - just back from Speyer rally in Germany - 400+ cars and very hot until the latter part of the weekend. Am now catching up on the BBS website and would endorse what George Butz says about static timing. Timing as per the Workshop Manual at TDC is the major cause of overheating on T Types not helped by the hotter burning modern fuels. Archives give advice but 4mm clockwise on the crankshaft pulley gives 5 degrees advance which works for me. Even Morris Minors used 4 degrees advance and they also used the O ring on the gear lever ball as described by Rob Grantham. Cheers John. |
| J.C Mitchell |
| Time for another round of "Thanks!" Dave, I didn't know the image upload feature would allow what you just did. Really cool! And exponentially, I'd say you're up to about 100,000 words. There are a lot of pictures there that might not relate to my current concerns but sooner or later they will. Your pictures substantially clarify the instructions from O'Conner. John, thanks for confirming George on timing; Gene, ' think I'll try some MT90; and Fletcher, thanks for all the off-line advice also. Cheers, Allen |
| Allen Bachelder |
| allen... there are a few forum members with websites of their own or photos on 'photo hosting' pages. dave directed you to his 'hosted page'... mine ( http://www3.sympatico.ca/gordonblawson/td/td.html ) is on my own site that comes from my service provider (everyone gets a little space from their ISP when they hook up to the net)! the upload photo/image feature below these messages is part of this forum site and allows a single image per message! just fyi |
| gblawson - TD#27667 |
| Gordon, Of course! I know better. As in http://www.mgexperience.net/member/bachldrs Duh! Thanks for waking me from me technological slumber. Allen |
| Allen Bachelder |
| PS: I forgot to examine and comment on your very interesting website. I take it your trip to Gatlinburg was mehanically uneventful. I was there too, with my '73 B/GT - long before the TD was even a twinkle in my eye. ' Wish I had met you but with lots of friends and relatives in Ontario, (I just joined the Bluewater British Car Club in Sarnia), I hope to see you at one of the regional shows before too long. Cheers, Allen PS: check out my uploaded factory production record. Our cars are just 223 apart, but yours - the higher numbered one apparently came off the line first as you say it was born on May 13th, whereas mine didn't come along until over a week later.  |
| Allen Bachelder |
| PPS: I'm confused. Mine IS the higher numbered one, of course, so it makes sense that it is about a week later. I'm going to get some sleep! Allen |
| Allen Bachelder |
| yours, #27890, shows as last being in jacksonville, fla....did you get it there? http://www.niagarabritishcarclub.org/mgtnumbers/numbers.html add your present info in the data base! |
| gblawson - TD#27667 |
| The easiest way to totally eliminate gear lever rattle, particularly under hard acceleration, is to simply replace the paper gasket under the aluminium housing with a "gasket" cut from a 1mm rubber sheet (but not natural rubber or it will degrade). In addition the spring washers under the heads of the four securing bolts should be replaced with flat washers, with another rubber washer, cut from the same 1mm rubber sheet, under the flat washers. Longer bolts may be necessary, and they should be done up until only just tight, and possibly secured with a thread locking adhesive. All noise will disappear. Any other work is probably not necessary, but if the small ball at the end of the gear-lever is welded up and recut spherical, it should really be re-hardened. In addition, the spring loaded plunger against this ball is normally a brass pad, with a hollow against the ball. Use of a ball-bearing will soon wear grooves in the repaired ball unless the hardening is very very hard. |
| Roger Wilson |
| Roger, Thanks for a totally different approach to the gear lever rattle. Gordon, Yes, I bought the car from Ron Tarr in a suburb of Jacksonville Florida - St John. You will note that I have now updated the records to reflect my ownership. Thanks for the opportunity. I asked Ron what he knew of the car's provenance and he answered: "From what little info I have on the car it was originally owned by someone in Ohio. Then it was sold to someone in NY. I bought it from a dealer in NY that just sells old foreign cars." That is all I know about the car, but I would like to know more. As far as I know, the engine swap (to #11502) occurred before Ron's ownership of the car (he owned it for seven years so his purchase from that dealer in NY would have been circa 2000. Any advice on how to further trace the history of the car is appreciated. Thanks, Allen |
| Allen Bachelder |
| Finding owner' histories is a bit tough...unless someone remembers... don't think you can do it through the license plate numbers/dept m v or anything like that. Thanks for the update... |
| gblawson - TD#27667 |
| Allen, thank you for your response. The modification is not my idea, I copied it from someone else about 15 years ago. After completing the work I never heard another sound from my gear lever, even with the ignition slightly advanced. Perhaps I had better not admit that I have now fitted a five speed gearbox. With regards, Roger. |
| Roger Wilson |
| Roger, And thanks for the idea! I'm rather engrossed in preparing my MGB for a 6,000 mile trip which will take up the month of July, so it may be awhile but I'll be sure to let you know how this comes out. I'm sure the five-speed box is a good idea if you drive your car a lot and if you're not a purist. I am very familiar with five-speed conversions for MGAs and Bs, but I'm still prettty new to the T-series cars generally. So would the five-speed be the Ford Sierra kit that has been used for so many other models? My car does have the 4.3 rear end conversion, which partly addresses the same issues. While my speedometer has yet to be repaired, the car does cruise rather effortlessly at 3500 rpm, which I believe is about 60 mph. That's faster already than I ever intended to drive a TD. But that nice quiet, effortlessly shifting five-speed is very tempting. I am not one to criticize those who modify (reversibly) in favor of increased driveability. Cheers, Allen |
| Allen Bachelder |
| Allen, With your MGB you probably have an overdrive gearbox, I think it was the MGA that didn't have an overdrive - you must know better than I. Anyway, the overdrive must be really useful. Someone I know is currently fitting a 5 speed gearbox to his MGA; it is a Ford Sierra box, the same as in my car. Both our kits came from HiGear (in England), and the kits are based on the Ford Sierra box. However, although my gearbox came from a vehicle dismantler (scrapyard), the one going into the MGA is a reconditioned unit from HiGear. I think he must have more money than me as he is also fitting an MGB engine bored out to 2 litres. Luckily the car has disc brakes. In my case I will retain the original gearbox, as well as a spare that I also have. Enjoy your trip With regards, Roger |
| Roger Wilson |
| Roger, The HiGear Sierra conversion is available here also and it seems to have caught on as I see of few of these conversions at most shows. Another popular conversion over here is the Rivergate kit employing a Datsun 280Z five-speed box. That is a super kit, with one substantial disadvantage: it only works with the five-main MGB engine. The advantage is that there are a fair number of these boxes to be found in North American wreckers' yards, whereas the Sierra box is almost non-existant here. But for three-main "B-series" engines as well as the XPAGs, I believe the HiGear set-up is the only ballgame in town, although the "down-under" guys have a couple of tricks up their own sleeves - using Toyota Celica boxes, I believe. Best regards, Allen |
| Allen Bachelder |
| FR is right- seat belts are critical. When I was 10 or 11, I was in a carpool with a friend. His mother was driving. I was in the back seat of their '64 ish Dodge Dart. Remember, these cars had floors that went down when you got in, with a 4-5 inch lp at the doors. I leaned on the door, it opend, and I fell out, head first, with my feet still in the car, and was dragged for about 10-15 feet until she could stop the car. I landed with my hands out, feet facing down, in the car. Both my wrists were badly cut, but I was lucky. My brother-in-law and his best friend were riding on a clear day in his friend's big Healey, when a 19 year old kid in a Honda ran a red light and T-boned them. My brother-in-law was ejected, flew about 50 feet, landing on his back and broke three vertebrae. He survived, also luckily, but was in the hospital for several months. He was self-employed, couldn't work, and it also contributed to his divorce. And he is no longer friends with the Healey owner. Many years ago, before i got into this hobby, I saw a picture of a '57 Chevy that had just been fully restored, that was hit by a Mack truck almost head on on a foggy morning on a rural road here in PA. The owner was quoted as saying that "the first thing I did when I got the car was to put in seat belts." He walked away with nary a scratch. I have heeded his advice ever since. I have lap belts in my TD, my MGA, and 3-point belts in my XKE and MGB. Let's hope that I never need them; but I won't drive ANY car unless all the occupants are buckled. Ira |
| Ira Spector |
| Thanks Ira, You're absolutely right. And my wife is absolutely right in refusing to ride in the car until I get the lap belts installed. Yes, we take our chances driving these old cars in modern traffic, but at least the belts offer substantial protection for modest effort. I keep thinking of that tragic Duesenberg accident a couple years ago... Just now I had a flash of imagination that tells us how much things have changed. I tried to imagine a TD steering wheel with an air bag in it! 8^) FWIW, Allen |
| Allen Bachelder |
| Allen, I'm Putting seat belts in my TD, when it gets back from the upholstery shop. It's getting a new top and side curtains. The seat belts will keep me from sliding around on the seat when I go around corners. David Home of the British Car Nut |
| David Honness |
| Hey David, TeDdy says "Hi" to Sir Scotty. I'm still so darn busy upgrading the B for our trip west, that TeDdy is getting ignored. ' Guess it will be August... But I'd sure like to put some miles on this little guy before I try driving him to Twist's on August 9. Cheers, Allen |
| Allen Bachelder |
| Many of you folks advocating just lap belts have probably never T boned a 4 door Chevy as I did in my TA back in '95. I had on a lap belt, broke my sternum and nose. Without beating a dead horse, I now have a 3 pt. belt in the TA and will be installing one in the TF later this week. I'd rather be strapped in and not thrown out or thrown forward. I'll take my chances with the downward force of the shoulder belt. My Alfa has a factory 3 point belt and NO roll bar! Terry in Oakland |
| Terry Sanders |
This thread was discussed between 01/06/2007 and 18/06/2007
MG TD TF 1500 index
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