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MG TD TF 1500 - Scrap metal in oil

Drained the oil today and dropped the washer from the oil plug in the bucket. When I drained the bucket slowly I found this as well as the washer. It is 1 mm in dia and about an inch long. Non magnetic so I assume it's stainless. My first thought is that it is a piece of safety wire from some nut in the engine.
Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Is my engine in trouble?

TIA,
Mort


Mort Resnicoff (50 TD-Mobius)

Mort , you could be right to assume it is a piece of safety wire from either a rod cap or a main cap.

Personally I would take no chances and drop the pan to inspect.

Good luck,

Gerard
Gerard Hengeveld


Aircraft SS safety wire is commonly .020, .025, .032. and .041.

Could it be .041 inches and not 1mm?

There may be other sizes used by auto mechanics but I've not familiar with anything other than the above.

Jim
J E Carroll

Mort,

Is there any chance it was already in the bucket? It would really suck if you got concerned if it was just a scrap from the bench. Conversely, it would suck if there's other stuff floating around.

A flexible borescope is probably the least invasive method of examining it.

An aircraft mechanic would have twisted the wire although auto mechanics often don't.
J E Carroll

Taking the pan off and having a look may be a good idea. This is an easy job on the XPAG. How much does it leak? May be a good time to upgrade to the double lip Volvo camshaft seal on the front pulley. Running a supercharger, and driving it as much as you do, I'd want a second look before it goes blewey.
BTW, we missed you at GOF 93 in North Conway. It was the GOF for TDs. Five survivors and many, many other TDs to admire. We had a lot of fun!
-David
D. Sander

The wire is obviously worn. It could well be .041.
I just arbitrarily selected metric on the caliper.

I thought about it possibly being in the bucket before I drained it. But I think that was just wishful thinking. I don't have any wire around of that size. The SS safety wire I use is much larger.

Also to be considered is that it might have been in the pan for some unknown amount of time.

Since it is up on jack stands and the oil is drained I think this would be a good time to pull the pan.

I've never done this before so all advice is welcome.

Do I need to prepare anything?

Do I need to order any replacement gaskets and if so what are the best?

What shall I look for when I have the pan off?

Where can I get more information on a "double lip Volvo camshaft seal" for the front pulley?
Mort Resnicoff (50 TD-Mobius)

gates pn ks 13945.national # 1172, fel pro tcs45725. it fits better
than a moss seal, & has a double lip.
Len Fanelli

IF it is from your engine, it probably came from one of the main caps.

Tom Lange
MGT Repair
t lange

Mort, to install the modern double lip Volvo seal, the so called "Hal Kramer" oil seal you have to take both the pan and the timing chain cover off. The oil seal is sealed to the pan and the timing cover with RTV. When I replace the oil pan gasket, I glue it to the pan with permetex gasket sealer, then I grease the other side of the gasket. I add a dab of RTV at the ends of the oil pan gaskets at each end. I must be lucky, because I've done a few and I have yet to have a leaker.
I'm sure others with more experience and talent than I can jump in here and offer some good tips.
-David.
D. Sander

Guess what I found in the sump? More wire.


Mort Resnicoff (50 TD-Mobius)

Two of the safety wires have been ripped out of place at some point in time.
Looks like they might have been set too wide and the rotation just chewed them up.
Does anyone have a picture of how it should be done?


Mort Resnicoff (50 TD-Mobius)

mort, i assume we are in agreement on this..that is the worst safety wiring i have ever seen. here is a picture demonstrating how we do it in the aviation industry. regards, tom


tom peterson

MORT,
Even though it is turning out to be a bit of work now, you are extreemly fortunate that you found this problem before disaster struck some where on the road!!!!!!!! I'm thinkin' that you might want to check the main bearings now that you are this far along?? Can you see if there are wires down on the "small end" bolts?? They might be in the same condition?

SPW
STEVE WINCZE

Mort - as others have made clear, this was a disaster waiting... The purpose of lockwire is to stop a single nut from turning by connecting it to a fixed object, or to connect pairs of nuts so that if one starts to loosen, because the way the wire is attached it will tighten the other nut - neither will loosen.

Your photo shows that the wire doesn't even fit into the crenelation, and is free to loosen and vibrate all over the place - no wonder it broke!

Also, I use cotter pins on each rod bolt (NOT the main cap nuts), as they are stopped from rotating by the bolt shoulder against the rod. Just pull them as tight as possible before you separate the legs, so there is as little vibration as possible. I frequently find bits of broken cotter pin in sumps, vibrated off because the cotter pin was left loose.

While you have things opened up, I would check as much as you can, because this is no indicator of a confident and experience engine job. Everything may be just fine, but be sure to check what you can - you've been given a freebie, take advantage of it.

Tom Lange
MGT Repair
t lange

Change the rod bolts, no telling what condition they are in. George
George Butz

Wow, I'll echo Tom's comments on the quality of the safety wire job! No A&P for that guy.

A proper method is illustrated by Tom's attachment. Note that the wire always tends to tighten the fastener. What's sometimes missed in the illustration is that the initial twist is right handed but the tail twist is left handed. That method tends to keep the "around" wire low and tight on the bolt head.

If your bolts were properly torqued in the first place it's doubtful that any are loose. Most modern engines rely on proper bolt stretch for security with no additional safety device. That said I safetied mine anyway :-)

The quality of the bolts in this engine in general is somewhat suspect. On the advice of Leo from R&L Machine, I closely inspected every bolt for signs of over torque - necking. Even some that looked fine could be felt stretching when torqued with a freshly calibrated torque wrench. The rocker stand bolts in particular I found several that were of very poor quality. The correct police will have to look deep for the new high strength metric-headed bolts I installed.
Some moose must have decided the oil pan was leaking and that a good tightening was necessary. I tossed most of those bolts due to obvious stretch.

The crank mains showed no signs of stretch and could be felt coming on torque with a steady increase, no soft feel as when a bolt is yielding. I think they used good quality materials on those studs and nuts.

If you choose to replace the rod bolts per George's suggestion, Tom has commissioned some ARPs that are exact replacement size.
J E Carroll

Tom P,
Thanks again for the diagram and Jud, thanks for those comments. I will remove all the wires and I will do it right.

What is the best way to check the torque? Should I just apply pressure with the torque wrench set properly or should I loosen the nuts?
Remember the engine is still in the car.
Is it safe to remove one nut and bolt at a time and inspect for necking?

George,
By rod bolts do you mean #321-268?

Steve,
You say to check the main bearings. How do I do that and what am I looking for?

You said " Can you see if there are wires down on the "small end" bolts??" What bolts are you referring to? I see wire on the 3 mains and two of the 4 rods.

Tom L,
Are you suggesting using cotter pins on the rod ends and wires on the mains? What size cotters do you use? You said "they are stopped from rotating by the bolt shoulder against the rod". Could you explain?

Once again thank you all. I can not imagine owning this car without all of your help.
Mort






Mort Resnicoff (50 TD-Mobius)

Mort - it's always good to see someone delve into the unfamiliar, and that's one reason why we are all happy to answer questions.

The rod bolts have a head on only one side of the bolt; the other side of the head has a flat that fits against the flat in the connecting rod. The bolt itself cannot turn in the rod, so a cotter pin is fine for rod bolts. I use the largest pin that will fit through the hole; don't remember the proper size (and can't get out to the shop to check right now).

One bolt at a time is fine for removal to check condition, but don't tighten one while you remove the other - torque them together. If you find one bolt with a waist they are all suspect. I do sell high-quality rod bolts; see my page at mgtrepair.net

Get decent quality stainless lockwire; a local airport using airport transfers tonbridge is a good source, or on-line.

Tom Lange
t lange

mort, 321-268 are the rod bolts. "small end/large end" refers to the crankshaft end(large end) and piston pin bore (small end) of a connecting rod. what you are looking for when you remove the connecting rod bearing cap, or the crankshaft main caps is SMOOTH, mirror like surface, no imperfections, grooves or visible surface damage caused by debris..in your case bits of wire.
in regard to checking torque and rod bolt stretch..if i were just checking torque, i would set the wrench to the correct value and check it. i would do this before removing the end caps. if the torque was correct and after inspecting the bearings..and if they look good..i would reuse those bolts..others may have a different, more conservative opinion in regard to reuse.

regards, tom
tom peterson

Tom P - I have seen many engines where torque applied during assembly exceeds spec, which is very dangerous, and leads to stretched bolts. Using a torque wrench to see if torque is OK will only show if the present torque is below spec or correct, not above it.

Tom Lange
t lange

In case you don't have an airport near you...I found a stainless wire kit with a crude but useable tool at a Motorcycle shop.
L E D LaVerne

I've got a roll of ss wire I bought at a local auto parts store. Measures .038" Dia. I assume that it is ok to use.
Mort Resnicoff (50 TD-Mobius)

I have tested my wire (.038") and it is rather difficult to twist properly. It may not have been designed for this application.
The wire that was in there is .031" and is very pliable.
My instinct is something in between.
Any suggestions?
Mort Resnicoff (50 TD-Mobius)

Daily Update:
I have examined all 8 rod bolts. They seemed to have been torqued correctly. They were not that difficult to remove. I measured each bolt at the top, middle and bottom and consistently got .313" ± .001. I checked the bearings and all were smooth and shiny. No pits, scores or scratches.
I torqued them all to 27 ft lbs with some very minor adjustments to line up the holes.

Can I use a Home Depot type of cotter pin or is there something stronger?

Tomorrow I will check the mains and re-torque the upper pinch bolts.

On the main gasket surface of the block I noticed some stampings in line with each cylinder. 1,2 & 4 are stamped 0005 + and 3 is 0010 +
That's it, no decimal point and no indication of the standard (Metric, English).
I assume that's the overbore on the cylinders. Is it common to have different sizes?
Mort Resnicoff (50 TD-Mobius)

A few minutes of reading on the McMaster site may have answered some questions.
Apparently the wire I have is spring-back and I need bend and stay wire.

I have ordered an assortment and twisting tool. Also ordered a variety of SS cotter pins.

They are about a hour away so I will pick up tomorrow.
Mort
Mort Resnicoff (50 TD-Mobius)

Bravo David! Grease on one side, contact cement on the other side of gaskets! (clean the corners for silicone sealer)"The right stuff" is the best silicone RTV.
If I remember correctly 25 is the torque for rod bolts, Use nyloc nuts, not the OEM cotter pin nuts.
ASE & Land Rover Master tech.
Len Fanelli




Len Fanelli

Mort, I think I read years ago that those were the original factory bore diameter variations from standard. At assembly, pistons were matched and picked to get correct clearance. George
George Butz

Allow me to chime in : cotter pins / Stainless ??

Stainless in principle is softer then the steel-ones.
If you go the route for cotter pins ( split pins called on the other side of the ocean )and mount them not tight you end up with a possible disaster you have just avoided by investigating your sump. My pref would be STEEL cotter pins.

I am sure others have other ideas.

Gerard
Gerard Hengeveld

I also am not a fan of Nylok nuts on connecting rods. First of all, on my website, mgtrepair.net, I have a picture of what's left of an engine after a connecting rod nut let go - it's not a pretty sight. The nut was found in the sump - a Nylok nut from the usual supplier. One real problem with them is that Nylok nuts can only be tightened ONCE; if you have to loosen one for any reason, into the trash it goes, to be replaced by another new one.

An old racer once told me (I don't know if I believe him) that the oil temperatures in the engine are higher than Nylok nuts can reliably stand, and the clamping strength is compromised.

My ARP rod bolts come with new high-tensile nuts.

Tom Lange
t lange

Tom , do you know of a source who can provide this community with the 12 point nuts ? Also used in Aircraft engines / turbines etc .
Gerard Hengeveld

gerard, aircraft spruce and specialty will have everything you need..aircraft grade hardware, safety wire, safety wire pliers, high grade split pins (cotter pins).
i am also not a fan of nylok nuts in the power train for the reasons listed by tom L. regards, tom

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/
tom peterson

Hi Tom I am on their client's for for at least 30 years. But they don't carry the the right tread size nuts to my best knowlidge.
Gerard Hengeveld

if you are looking for BSF aircraft hardware try LAS aerospace in england. this were i get the hardware for my Tiger Moth. regards, tom

http://www.lasaero.com/site/
tom peterson

You guys are so good. I just replaced my SS cotter pin order with zinc plated steel and will pick up in 1 hour.

Am I ok with the SS safety wire?
Mort Resnicoff (50 TD-Mobius)

Just want to be sure I have this right.
I've got Loctite Red, Blue and Black RTV Silicone.

The pan gaskets:
Black on the pan side some extra at the ends and regular? grease on the top?

Any harm in using the black on top and bottom?

I also had some leaks at the bolts. Is Teflon tape ok to use?

Also RTV to seat the front and rear seals?

Thanks again.
Mort


Mort Resnicoff (50 TD-Mobius)

This is my handywork. I guess I dare to show it because it can't get worse than on those earlier pictures!


Willem van der Veer

Careful using Red! That is high strength and would require heat if you wanted to remove the bolts at a later time.

Following your thread, if these are for the pan bolts, use the blue which is medium strength and torque to spec and you will be fine.

Frank
Frank Cronin

Be very sparing and careful with any of the RTV sealers around the oil passage from the pan pickup to the block. A blob here could block or restrict the oil passage. George
George Butz

Frank,

I think Mort means red RTV, not red locktite, which I agree needs heat to release. The red RTV however, is just a higher temp RTV but requires no other special handling or heat to release.

Personally I just use black. GM specifies it for valve covers, it's got plenty of heat tolerance, and it just blends in - not messy looking like blue or red if it gets on adjacent stuff - outside, of course.
J E Carroll

Willem,
Very neat. If you are in my neighborhood stop by and you can do mine.

Frank,
Jud is right. Although I am using the Loctite brand the stuff in the picture above is all RTV Silicone.

What do you all think of Teflon on the pan bolts? I have had leaks around the bolts.

Mort
Mort Resnicoff (50 TD-Mobius)

Mort,

Any oil that's going up the bolt threads to the outside of the block had to be getting by the old gasket. The nice new one combined with your good installation should keep any from leaking; I would not use any tape on the threads.

Jim
J E Carroll

I got 2 of the 3 main bearing plates to drop down for inspection. All seems perfect. No scratches, no pits, lots of oil etc.
Could not get the rear one to drop.
All bolts seemed ok. None were very hard to remove.

I will reassemble over the weekend.
Mort
Mort Resnicoff (50 TD-Mobius)

mort, never use teflon tape for thread sealant in a motor. that is a plumbing supply item. pieces of the tape can/will end up in the oil system.
as jim pointed out, most of the pan bolts end up out side the block so thread sealant would be of no use, but there are a couple that do need thread sealant. the forward pan bolts that thread into the timing chain housing..and perhaps a couple on the rear of the pan the bolt bores are into the block..i cannot remember, but you can take a look prior to swinging the pan into position.are within the blocknapa sells a teflon paste thread sealant..it is manufactured by permatex. that stuff is made for and suitable for use on engines.

http://www.permatex.com/products/product-categories/thread-compounds/thread-sealants


regards, tom
tom peterson

This thread was discussed between 10/06/2013 and 14/06/2013

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