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MG TD TF 1500 - slow no mo
|Can you say ohhhh awwwww|
|I don't know how fast she'll go cause I chickened out at 90 mph
|Well, I'm impressed... looks lovely as well!|
Which make of supercharger is that? The carb is below the hood (bonnet).
I looks like it really fits in a TF!
|It's an Eaton blower. Makes 6 lbs of boost. Fits in the TF with some slight modifications. Very tight. Going to get a dyno read Friday to compare with last years 31 bhp stock reading. It's not going to dust off any rice rockets but should be able to keep up with modern traffic and hopfully up the passes at more than 20 mph.|
|Is that one of the Moss units?|
|Damn, LaVerne, I still haven't mounted mine yet. Waiting on the new engine...but then we can race!|
|LaVerne, I must say I have always been impressed with your car. You have reached the ultimate in my mind. Great job.|
Nice work! Have you done anything special with the fuel pump? How about your gearing?
Terry -- No it is not a Moss unit.
Gene -- Your going to be happy and thanks again for the carb.
Dan -- Thanks, I can't take much credit. Most of what I've done is just bolting parts together.
Tom -- nothing special on the pump. New one installed during the rebuild a couple of years ago. Stock 4.875 rear end and the Datsun/ Skyhook 5 speed tranny. Could it run a 4.55 or 4.33 now? Yes, but I really wasn't looking for a high speed cruiser.
The 90 mph is something I'll most likely never do again. My biggest problem now will be keeping my foot off the floor between shifts and just using the blower when really needed. But for those of us with the TF,
we can cram one in there if we want it bad enough.
I'll post the new BHP after Friday
|LaVerne, An absolutely beautiful job. It sounds as if it goes as well as it looks. That looks like a very large carb, what size? Did you find the front end lifting at that speed? |
|G. L. Raham|
|LaVerne: Nice job on the supercharger. While I appreciate it, I must say that your pictures (probably unintentionally) solved another problem for me. I am nearing the completion of the restoration of my '55 TF and was asked to make a choice of color for the webbing along the fender lines, etc. - as Moss apparently does not make a dark green matching my paint color. As an alternative, I chose "biscuit" and have been worrying about it ever since (a week ago). No more - after seeing your pictures, it looks fine. RUSS YOUNG|
|D R Young|
|LaVerne, I love the supercharger on the T series. Was the engine built with a new crank and pistons, rods etc. or just stuck on the car with the existing old crank and such?|
|George-- It's a 1 1/2" ( same as the stock pair) with a different float bowl, jet and linkage.|
Russ --- I bought a roll of the "apple" green piping but gave it away. I don't believe that the td/tf ever had the dark green from new. When I was still just lusting for a TF, I saw a couple of pictures of one that was entirely black with red piping including the interior and hood and I nearly went that route. I knew I wanted the car dark as I think it shows the lines better. Wife said dark BRG. The purist will chew you up, but I look at it almost everyday and I love it. Many here have painted the piping to match their car color with good succsess I hear.
Thanks for the comeback on the fuel pump. My reason for asking is that my Moss-supercharged TD is experiencing surging over 4,000 rpm when traveling at steady speeds. I'm not sure if this is a float problem or a pump problem or even jetting. It is accompanied by what may be the supercharger blowing off. Specifically, this means a loud BANG which I thought must be a pressure release.
If I keep the revs, pressure (and speed) down, there is no issue. There is no such behavior on acceleration runs, so my hunch is that I have a buildup somehow of intake manifold pressure that may be coupled to a somewhat lean condition. There is no evidence of a backfire through the carb. It may be a secondary combustion somewhere in the exhaust system, but I cannot understand how that might happen.
I'd appreciate any comments on this. I may take it to the supercharger thread, but there seem to be few XPAG people on that thread.
|TR -- here's a link to last years bhp reading and what's been done to the engine. Have about 2000 miles on it now.|
Tom -- Your scareing me. I'd pull the plugs for starters and see what they are telling you. Check your static timing and then put the strobe on it and see if it's holding steady as you increase the RPM or if it's bouncing around. If everything looks good there then I'd move to the fuel side. Reminds me of the younger days when we would turn the key off and pump the gas pedal, then turn the key back on and the explosion would scare the crap out the people on the side walks. Occasionally blow the muffler clean off the car. Thank God that our kids can't do that with fuel injection and steering ignitions. And if your reading this dad thats not what happened to the sation wagon.... really.
By the way while I had all the sheet metal off for the installation of the blower I had the radiator recored. In hot weather, long grades or long runs on the interstate the temp would run up to 100 c. Even with the added heat of the blower, she now runs at 80 c with outside temps at 95 f. I might have to put a hotter thermostat in her to keep some heat this winter.
|LaVerne: That was my fall-back position: in the event I do not like it, I could always paint the piping to match the car color. Of course, like you, I am also using a dark (Jaguar) BRG color, as I agree as to the car lines - figure, even if I could not match the color, I could always paint the piping black and it would disappear against the dark green. I am the second owner of the car, and it had a darker green piping when I acquired it from the first owner - not the "apple green" which you so correctly disposed of. RUSS|
|D R Young|
|LaVerne, Thanks for your reply on the carb size. In the picture it looked larger than 1 1/2".I am surprised that with the increase in breathing ability, that you would not require a larger carb. The SU is normally a semi-downdraft, so how did you adjust the float bowl to be level? In my earlier thread, I asked if you had noticed the front end coming up as you got up to that speed. I found the TD lifted as the air got under the front wings. Did this happen on the TF? It appears that we both live at around the 4500' elevation and what needle did you use in the carb. I had to make quite an adjustment to compensate for the higher altitude. Once this was done, tuning the carbs was a pleasure, with good results. Congradulations again on the great job you have done on your TF.|
|G. L. Raham|
Just because Moss doesn’t carry it, doesn’t mean it not available. While not common, dark green wing piping is very much available. The chap up the road from me just put it on his TD restoration, and it looks great.
You can start with http://www.vintagesupplies.co.uk/part.phtml?PartID=800 for a fabric product.
Or you can get it in plastic at http://www.smallfordspares.co.uk/fr/part.phtml?PartID=1249
I’m sure there must be others.
Its not that difficult to make it yourself. Get a ¼” (OD) plastic or rubber tube, and lay it into a 2” strip of thin (green) “leathrerette” (also referred-to as Rexine). Fold it over and glue it. I made some for my TC (many, many years ago) and it looked original.
|Gordon A. Clark|
Did you think of fitting extractors (headers) to help the breathing?
|J H Crighton|
|Sorry George, I meant to tell you when I made the high speed run that the wings, side panels and bonnet were off the car. I wanted to test it a bit before putting all the body work back on as there isn't much room to do anything with it in place. So the only thing I felt was my sphincter tighting as I realized how stupid I was to be traveling at 90 with 4 wheel drum brakes,no seat belt, sheet metal over wood body, no roll over protection , on a 45 mph paved two lane road with corn fields on either side that a tractor might pull out from at any time. All thoughts were this could be ugly. Jet needle is .100 and the float bowl came used from Joe Curto. They were used on early 50's Jag's and Healys, maybe others also. |
Gordon is absolutley correct about the piping. I was leaning towards the contrasting piping even before I ordered the green.
JC-- Not really at this point. I want to use the car for some long distance touring and didn't want to get to radical. I am still looking for some of the rear wing guards that were produced in OZ. So if you come across a decent set please let me know.
|For both Tom and LaVerne. The supercharger does indeed make life easier on driving the T car and as Craig Cody once said," it is the most fun you can have with your clothes on". That said I advise the the engine be very strong with a modern crankshaft in it. Check the archives, I had a Judson on my car and it ran beautifully till about 3000 miles then the crank broke. Crank had been magnafluxed and complete engine rebuild with 8500 miles on it when I installed the Judson. If you are using an original crank I would be very carefull about the tension on the belt to the crank pulley, loose is best, tight is bad. It seems that the crank has a tendency to wobble, since it is a 3 main bearing crank and although the wobble is not noticible to the naked eye, it is there nonetheless and a tight belt puts to much strain on the crank. $5000.00 later all that and I still miss the Judson it was a kick...|
|I am intrigued by your comment on extractors! I would have thought that replacing the attractive, but not particularly efficient standard exhaust manifold would fall on the conservative, not radical end of the spectrum. I am green with envy for your supercharger installation - all I could afford was a $500 set of pipes to improve the breathing and I am very happy with the result. |
The 'speed run' must have been exciting/terrifying!
|J H Crighton|
Very nice work, and it sounds like a heck of a lot of fun. Congratulations on a successful project! Your car is beautiful.
|JC, I suspect the exhaust would be the easiest place to gain some power on a XPAG. I've had mixed results with extractors on various vehicles. I have a set of stainless ones on my 69 B which probably are not much better than the stock manifold. My experience has shown that the cast iron manifolds will push more of the heat out through the tail pipe while the extractors disapate more in the engine compartment. The TF holds a lot of heat in in that area already so no extractor for now. Taking it one step at a time to see what the gains are. Gene has a beautiful set for his TC that he should send to me to break them in for say 20 years or so. I believe that the real gain in the exhaust would be with a larger pipe from the manifold back through the silencer and tail pipe. I have the Moss/Falcon system and I suspect that it is quite restrictive. I have the same stainless system on the B with a larger bore, single silencer and she's a happy camper although plenty noisey. The speed run was fun but really stupid on my part. The engine was still pulling strong but nearing 5500 rpm so thats as far as I would take it unless I had a rich uncle give me a boat load of money. |
Thanks to all for the compliments but except for replumbing the heater I was just bolting parts together.
Manley's extractor exhaust is still laying on my work bench if you want to try a set before you buy one... it's still months away from going on my car. Contact me off list if you do.
Thanks for the additional comment.
You intrigue me again! I was told that the heavy cast iron exhaust manifold on the T series are a huge heat sink that CONTRIBUTES to heat build up in the engine bay and that more efficient extractors, especially if they are ceramic coated, will substantially REDUCE the engine bay temps.
Sadly, it will be several months before my revived TF will be on the road and hence give me the opportunity to judge whether my conversion from the cast iron siamesed exhaust manifold to 'flash as a rat with a gold tooth' ceramic coated extractors achieves anything in terms of performance or engine bay heat.
|J H Crighton|
|George R; I have no lifting of the front end, nor dipping under braking, or body roll in turns. I too have chickened out at 90 MPH.(more left, no blower!). Sides of bonnet installed. I have been supplying a kit of MGB springs/anti-sway bars (used) to a few local club members.|
|Hi Len, When I had the TD in speed trials, on several occasions, I noticed a change in the attitude of the car on a long straight at high speed. I took a look out the side at the front wing, and noted that it was up higher off the road surface than was usual. My assumption is, that the air pressure was lifting the wings. When I removed the front wings and running boards, installed Andrex shocks front and rear, cycle fenders, it was a completely different car. I made no changes to the springs or standard shocks as none were available at the time. It sounds like I could have used some of the items you mentioned in reply. The fun at the time was in finding the right setting for the Andrex shocks to suit the track conditions. I never realized at the time what an experience I was having, and it sure is fun thinking about what that little car and I have done together. It is one of the many pleasures I have, driving it to-day.|
|G. L. Raham|
|Dyno results are in. Whats your guess's ?|
Remember, stock 1250 at 4500 ft elevation 6 lbs boost at 5500rpm.
I'll take the bait - I'll say 43 rear-wheel horsepower at 5200 rpm. 90 mph sounds good to me - with cycle fenders like George's, the Judson at 6 pounds, and that 4.88 rear end with the 5-speed, I hope that I can get a cruising speed of 75 or 80 mph. An aerodynamic TD with low drag; hope springs eternal.
C'mon LaVerne - let's see the dyno sheet.
|George R, The 480 # MGB rubber bumper High performance springs & a stock 5/8" MGB sway bar, with poly bushings, transform the handeling of a TD.Totaly neutral, no lift or dive. LED, stock 1250, but what is the over bore size?|
|Len F. I'm not quite sure if you were asking what tune the TD was in but I'll tell you anyway. At the time I was racing it, it had been bored to only .020 over. Along with a competition clutch, the motor was to stock TF specs with both intake and exhaust ports polished and matched. I was able to remove 286 lbs. as we were running power to weight classes in the early 60's.The little car would really move out with the above changes and I sure wish the additional items you mentioned above had been available to me at that time. On one long straight, it was turning 6200 rpm in 4th gear before I had to hit the brakes. I still had the 5.125 diff. in it at the time and as best I could figure out, this worked out to around 96 mph with the tire size I was running. I think you have to experience this kind of performance before you really understand what these cars are capable of. I hope I didn't bore you, but my car has given me such a rush at times. |
|G. L. Raham|
|Here it is. May not seem like much but believe me it makes the driving much more pleasurable.|
|LaVerne, please excuse these senior moments, but I want to make sure of what I think I'm seeing. I suspect that the higher pair of curves show the torque (ft.lbs) and horsepower at the rear wheels with the blower. The lower two curves are the same parameters in a stock normally aspirated TF. Am I right?|
Wow! Looking at the torque/Hp crossover point at 5250 rpm it would appear that you've gone from 31 units to about 45. An increase of about 50%. What a great kick in the seat of the britches that must be.
|Bud, I believe you've got it. The red lines show the torque figures with and without the blower. The blue lines are the BHP with and with out. Looks to me like I went from 31 BHP to 49 BHP. Approximate increase of 60%. Still not drag race stuff but nice to know I can pull into traffic and get into the flow without getting rear ended.|
This graph gives me hope - 49 ft pounds of torque at 3500 and 49 hp at 5500 - this is much more than I thought.
What cam did you use? Did you go with a stock exhaust? I know you've told us before, but I forget.
With the 4.88 rear end, can you pull 75 mph in 5th on level ground without downshifting? What are your revs in 5th at 60 mph? Revs at 75 mph?
|Dave, rather than type all that in again just go back up this thread a liitle and click on the link I put in from last year. The info is about half way down in in that thread. I believe that there could be some more gains with a little bit of head work and a less restrictive exhaust. It will run all day at 75 mph in 5th at about 4200 rpm. It will go on up to 90 if your brave enough. I didn't really check at 60 mph but it should be pretty relaxed.Thought I might get a chance to put some miles on it this weekend and check out the hill pulling but it didn't work out. I'll have to see if I can borrow a more modern camera and do the youtube thing so you can get a better feel of whats going on.|
Where did you get the supercharger for your TF?
Can I get one for my TD?
|The blower came from, |
Yes I believe you could get one for your TD and it should be much easier to fit than it was in the TF.
This thread was discussed between 19/08/2008 and 26/08/2008
MG TD TF 1500 index
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