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MG TD TF 1500 - Starter doesn't engage

Hi Guys...

Went to take the TF out for a spin but when I pulled the starter knob, it seems the starter is spinning but no engagement with the flywheel. Ran just fine the last time I drove it and there has not been any crash engagements with the starter.

Short of taking the starter out (not sure what I'll be looking for if that's needed) any suggestions?

Thanks!

Jim
Jim Rice

Can you spray a little penetrating oil into the end to hit the gear and spring (from the rear of the bell housing)?
gblawson(gordon)

With a 15mm socket and some 3/8 drive extension bars it will take less than 10 minutes to remove the starter. Then you will need to free up the bendix mechanism and lubricate it with some oil.

Cheers,

Paul.
Paul van Gool

Thanks guys...

I'll try and find a hole to spray the lube...otherwise I'll take it out. Any particular lube I should use if I need do the removal?

Thanks,

Jim
Jim Rice

Make sure the battery isn't almost dead. If it is really low, it won't spin fast enough to spin the bendix out. Very easy to remove as Paul says.
George Butz

"Then you will need to free up the bendix mechanism and lubricate it with some oil."

Clean it up, but don't use oil on it. If you want to put some lube on the internals, use a dry lube. Oil will just collect dirt and cause it to seize up again. Cheers - Dave
David DuBois

Jim, At the front end of the starter, the armature shaft extends out and is square. If the starter is locked, put a wrench on the square end and see if you can turn the shaft. This will usually release the pinion if it has locked up with the ring gear. It is not a major chore to get the starter out if this doesn't work. Oh yes, the square end may be covered by a round cap that is only a press fit and is easily removed.
George Raham
TD 4224
G. L. Raham

tap it with a hammer.
Dick Thomas

Jim,

I don't know how old your engine is, but one must always remember that when one shuts down, a 4-stroke engine always completes its cycle and stops at the same place - every time.

This means that each time your start your car, the starter gear engages the ring gear in exactly the same position.

Over the years, this same place on the ring gear becomes worn, and won't allow the starter gear to mesh with the ring gear and it just spins - just like you are experiencing. This is a very common occurance.

Unfortunately the only solution is to remove the engine and rotate the ring gear 90°. The flywheel must be removed and the ring gear pressed off the flywheel. Before you do this however, be sure to mark both the flywheel AND the ring gear, so you don't accidentally reassemble them in the same relationship!

And be careful, as the ring gear is thin and can be easily broken. Usually, this is best done in a machine shop, as very few people have a press of enough force to do this.

Replacing it is a bit easier and can be done at home. Put the flywheel in your freezer overnight. Heat the ring gear and place it on the periphery of the frozen flywheel, making sure to rotate it 90°. Carefully tap it into place using a lead hammer. Be sure to ensure it fully seats against the back side of the flywheel. Make sure it is fully seated and check it with a dial gauge.

You can always buy a new ring gear (Abingdon - $122.50), and be sure its an 8" for your TF. I have always rotated mine and it has worked out well. However, I'm on my 3rd re-build and will have to replace it next time (it won't be me - I'll be 6' down!).

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.
Gordon A. Clark

I thought the engine/ring gear would stop in only one of three positions?
gblawson(gordon)

I'm sure the battery isn't weak. I installed a new Optima abot a year ago, and keep it on a trickle charge...so there seems to be plenty of energy available, and the starter really hums since it doesn't engage. The engine isn't that old since re-build (need to check records to see if the ring-gear was replaced) and I haven't driven it a lot either. I don't think the ring gear however is the problem. I would think if the ring gear was bad, I would hear the pinion bang against the ring gear while trying to engage. I don't hear that...just an immediate and increasing whirring noise as the starter comes up to speed...so I suspect the bendix is stuck. Looks like I'll need to take it out...I'll keep you all posted. Thanks again for the assist!!

Cheers!

Jim
Jim Rice

Jim,

" ... I don't think the ring gear however is the problem. I would think if the ring gear was bad, I would hear the pinion bang against the ring gear while trying to engage"

Not necessarily, Jim. The wear can be quite clean. If you want to check this out, just put the car in gear, and rock it a bit ... just enoungh to rotate the ring gear a few degrees. If there is any ring gear in the area, it may now catch it.

Same can be done with the crank handle.

Also, I recently had to replace the throw-out spring on the bendix. Made the same noises you describe.

Gord Lawson ... not quite sure how this works. It has something to do with the cycling of the compressed cylinders versus the uncompressed cylinders.

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.
Gordon A. Clark

My experience with this has been: clean the bendix, don't lube it.
Tom

Problem solved.....missing cotter key!! Took the starter out and noted the end nut was backed-off quite a bit which I suppose loosened the assembly to the point where the bendix wasn't under enough spring pressure to engage. Upon closer inspection saw that the cotter key was missing...sheesh..a two cent part!

Went ahead and greased all the mechanisms while it was apart, tightened the nut, inserted a new key, reinstalled the starter...and varoom!!

Thank goodness it was somthing simple. Not sure if the key had been installed when I had the starter overhauled years ago, or it if may have broke and fell out. Anyway...thanks for all the feedback...and so quick!

Best regards,

Jim
Jim Rice

Jim,

Thanks for the update. Isn't it cool when we can solve something by simple inspection and a hardware store run? These cars are truly meant for home repair. As confidence grows, little victories make future big victories possible!

warm regards,
dave
Dave Braun

Your right there Dave... four years ago I had not the slightest idea of how to do anything mechanical on the car... now, i'm not sure how far into the engine I would be willing to go.... heck of a lot further after what you call the 'little victories'!!!

Rebuilt/cleaned the starter, generator
Rebuilt windshield wiper motor/electrical and gears.
Replaced a broken tappet arm....and tube
Replaced the water pump
Replaced the sump gasket
Added a heater with assorted fittings
Replaced brake lines/shoes
Rebuilt master cylinder...
Traced a few non working lights and repaired
Assorted upholstery projects

Hey...a few little victories at that!
gblawson(gordon)

Gordon, Dave, David, and all....

With the help available on this site...you're never really doing any repairs or troubleshooting by yourself....it's really a collective effort with as much interest and concern by everyone...almost like we all owned the very same vehicle. I certainly have had a lot more confidence tackling any repair with the folks here to provide guidance and support.

Short of the actual core engine and transmission overhaul, I've done all the work on the TF by myself over the last 9 years....and with the help of all of you.

Thanks so much,

Jim
Jim Rice

..almost like we all owned the very same vehicle



'Ummmm... dad, can I have the car tonight....????
gblawson(gordon)

jim, what did you use for lube? i am with dave on this..every and i mean every manual or resto publication i have read says NO grease..most of those articles would probably say something like this.."if you used grease to lube the bendix..the NEXT time you have to take it apart ..." mg shop manual says parafin for a lube. anything else??, if you think you have to put something on there ...perhaps a dry silicon or graphite?? regards, tom
tom peterson

Gordon, only if you mow the lawn, take out the trash, get good grades in school, help your mom around the house, blah, blah, blah...LOL

Tom...As far as the lube, I used a light coating of a semi-synthetic wheel bearing grease. The bendix it a pretty heavy duty mechanism, so an application of the grease seemed reasonable. With the internal metal to metal contact while it's sliding and twisting, eventually something would wear out...perhaps sooner that it really should. Given the greases properties, I would think it would take years before you would see the starter hang-up because of dried-up dirty grease. Just my thoughts on it.

Cheers,

Jim
Jim Rice

Tom Peterson, I think the manual is referring to kerosene as parafin, and that might leave a bit of a slick surface, but mostly just cleans the grooves. Admittedly, there have been a lot of miracle lubes made since these cars were built. My mechanical mentor asked me when I went to him with sticky bendix if I had lubed it. I said yes, and he said that's your problem, clean it - don't lube it. He was right.

Jim, glad you solved the problem. My experience, again, is that the hardest part of most jobs is getting in the mood to do them. Unless it's a failure in the parking lot or on the side of the road. Then it's staying calm enough to make good decisions.
Tom

Tom's right, I spend weeks thinking about how and when to do a 10 minute repair!
gblawson(gordon)

jim, you are right.we don't drive these cars as much as the original owners did so you may be ok for quite a while. it is not that the grease dried up, it was the dirt that collected while it was stll "sticky" regards, tp
tom peterson

This thread was discussed between 28/09/2008 and 30/09/2008

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