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MG TD TF 1500 - Still trouble...

First, thank you for the clutch adjustment advice. That business worked well.
But the car still does not. They did repair the pistons. That works fine. But, as I have said before, and some of you have remarked, there were always two faulty things. And one is the ignitions system. Today, the car kept stopping again, just like on the trip to Sweden two months ago. I called the workshop several times today. When in the end I got the car back to where I live, I called them again. I guess they had been going over the thing once more and talked to another mg specialist.
They now believe it must be the condenser. They have changed that before, but think that they have got bad ones. They will be searching in Europe tonight for a good one.
Meanwhile I am taking the car for any trips until it is fixed. Todays short trip with several stops was a very bad experience.
Raymond Wardenaer

Raymond,
Not sure if you have had work done to the distributor.
You might want to check the advance mechanics under the points plate. My car had a broken spring and the other was rusted. An easy fix and made a world of differance in how the car ran.
Another thing you might consider is installing a pertronix ignition in place of the points.
Quite of few of us have installed these and have been very happy with the results.
IMHO the advantages are:
Less maitanance (no points to adjust)
Better starting
Improved preformance
I'm sure there are those that will argue that properly set points will do the same job but if you are not into "tweeking" the car yourself I think you will find this simplafies things greatly.
Mine has been on for about 10 years now with no worries. I do however still carry a set of points as a spare.
David Sheward

David, I just learned about it, and I find the idea appealing. I am not so worried about originality all the way through, and I would as much reliability as possible. I have already written a mail to the workshop about. I shall call them tomorrow morning.
Thank you for the advice, David
Did you know I was in Ohio in 1951?
Raymond Wardenaer

Did you rule out the ignition coil? I had a bad one and it drove me crazy until I found it!
Steven Tobias

No, I (they) did not rule itv out. I think, as I said above, they changed it twice.
Which time of Pertronix ignition should I get?
Raymond Wardenaer

Raymond, you might want to take a look at this page:
http://www.ttalk.info/Tech/pertronix_igniters.htm . Bud
Bud Krueger (TD10855)

Sorry, I meant what TYPE of Pertronix igniter should I get!
Raymond Wardenaer

Reymond,

have a look at this link, http://www.vintageperformance.com/retrorockets/mg.htm

you need to order the right set to match your lobe shape on your distributor.

You should also fit a Lucas high performance coil DLB 105

I have then on my TD, very easier to fit,improves performance and starting, you can fit and forget.

Cheers Chris
C A Pick

There are 2 issues that determine which Igniter you'd need. One is the polarity of your system, positive ground or negative ground. The other is the shape of your distributor's rotor: symmetric, asymmetric or high-lift. Bud
Bud Krueger (TD10855)

Ray,

This link shows the different shaped distributor cam lobe shapes,

http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/classicgarage_2165_77670936

http://classicgarage.com/mgtctdtf.html

and heres a link for another supplier



Chris
C A Pick

Raymond,
Everybody above gave the info you need ( polarity of your system / symmetric, asymmetric or high-lift) for the Pertronix. I think you will be happy with it. (I am). I run a Lucas sports coil on my car (painted black so few notice it.)
You have a TD or TF?
David Sheward

David, I have a TD.
Did you see that I visited Ohio in 1951?
Raymond Wardenaer

Hello Raymond,

I installed a Pertronix kit in my 54 TF two months ago. I also swapped the old coil for a new one from Pertronix. It works great for me! Easier starting, more torque, better idling.

By mistake I ordered two Pertronix coils so you can have my spare one. We both live in oslo and you can reach me on 907 97 151

regards

Jan Emil Kristoffersen
Jan Kristoffersen

Raymond,
How long were you here?
I was born in 53 ....Dad, is that you Dad? LOL
Kidding ...what part of Ohio did you visit?
David Sheward

David,
I was eleven years old and took part in the very first CISV-camp ever. CISV stands for Childrens International Summer Villages. It took place in Glendale, in the outskirts of Cincinnati.
Raymond Wardenaer

Jan,
thank you for your support!
And your car is magnificent...
Here is a second image of my luggage rack thing...
Raymond


Raymond Wardenaer

David and others,
the mechanic could not order the Pertonix until he knew what kind of distributor, symmetric or asymmetric, that I have.
I hope you can tell me from my image here.


Raymond Wardenaer

High lift - excellent picture, by the way. Tom
t lange

sorry Tom,

I disagree with you I believe its symmetric If you look at the pictures on the link I attach.

http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/classicgarage_2165_77670936

Cheers Chris
C A Pick

Please, everyone chime in - I have been wrong so often... I was looking mostly at the upper right lobe, which does seem to come to a point.

Tom
t lange

I believe it is a high lift. Looks kinda square with points on all four corners to me .


Dallas
Dallas Congleton

I believe its symmetric also. (But I have been wrong more than Tom!)
Do not forget to order correct polarity, i.e. poss or neg ground electric system.
(The "smoke" comes out quickly if that is wrong.)

I can't recall if there is "change-over" data out there by engine type / number? (XPAG/XPEG)
(Not that this really would tell you unless you have owned the car from new and know for a fact it has never been changed...not many of us here can make that claim.)
David Sheward

Tom is correct, it is a high lift cam. You can tell by the location of the notch for the rotor. The notch is at the 2 o'clock position on the high lift, while at the 4 o'clock on the symmetric. Cheers Phil
Phil Atrill

Yikes ...!
IMHO : At this point I think I would send this gentleman the picture and ask him!
John Twist
<johntwist "at" universitymotorsltd "dot" com>
(replace the "at" & "dot" / @ . )

Include your engine number for John.
Let us know what he says.

Raymond: BTW I'm in central Ohio about 30 miles east of Columbus ...very small town of Thornville. Been here about 20 years and the only person I have ever met that knew where it is was Lauren Bacall. She actuallly knew the house and described it to me.
David Sheward

Can't see the forest for the trees!
I didn't even notice location of the notch as I was studing more the shape of the cam.
(looking more "squared" oposed to "rounded")

Obviously this one confused me years ago and continues to do so now!
I asked the "Guru" (John Twist), installed the Pertronix, and really haven't looked at it again for many years.

Can I play politician and chage my vote to high lift?
David Sheward

raymond, i would use the phrase "sounding like a broken record" but with today's technology that phrase has no meaning. so i will just ask, how did the shop determine, through testing and troubleshooting, that ignition is the source of your trouble?
the shop is starting to push the odds, i've lost track, is it two or three bad condensers out of the box? even though you have very limited run time since this problem started, how do the points look? the car can run without a condenser..not for an extended time as the points will arc, but it will run.
i'm not against the pertronix system, heck i have one sitting on the shelf in my shop....(there was a sale and the price was SO low i could not resist). i have not installed it because the point system is so good i cannot get my hand off the starter knob quick enough on starting. so the pertronix sits in a box on the shelf...but i digress.
just my opinion, but i believe in effective troubleshooting and testing. once the cause of the problem is determined THEN you can make an informed decision about the cost effectiveness of a repair scheme vs. replacement of faulty part(s) or "upgrade" to a pertronix system, etc.
my concern for you raymond is this, without knowing what the problem is, when you install the pertronix system, if the car does not start do you have a bad pertronix or is the issue still with your car? the trouble with remove and replace fixing schemes without effective testing and troubleshooting is with every part replaced without troubleshooting and testing you do not know if it is the newly installed part or the original problem.
here is an interesting link with point ignition info.

http://www.jetav8r.com/Vision/Ignition/CDI.html

good luck. please let us know how this progresses. regards, tom
tom peterson

All,

This looks a lot like a symmetric cam. The position of the slot is independant of the cam shape, it is a function of the direction of rotation of the distributor.
In the case of our XPAG engines this is clockwise.

John

52 TD
J Scragg


Tom,
My apologies, I may have got it wrong looking at the position of the notch, however the good news is that it is the same pertrinox unit for both the high lift and symmetric distributor cam lobe.

PE-LU146P12 for positive ground earth
PE-LU146 for negative ground earth

See link http://classicgarage.com/mgtctdtf.html


Hope that helps Raymond
C A Pick

Tom makes some very good "points" (pun intended) here.
Condiction of dizzy, coil and wires should all be addressed and corected first.
I mentoned the Pertronix not as a cure for the problem but as an addiction that might make thing easier for Raymond down the road.
In as much as he is having a shop do all this work I felt it might be nice as they are very low maintance and could save some money and frustration if one were taking the car to a mechanic to have points set.

Electrics is one thing I do tackle myself and for this one I think I would start by looking at the coil and spark. If the coil test good but spark is "low" I would be looking at the plug wires. In the first few years of ownership on my TF I had repalced the plug wires using the "kit" from one of our well known suppliers. (sevral times!) There is no nice way to say this ...the wire was crap! I finally wised up and made plug wires using Lucas Bumble-Bee wire. It has been on the car for 10+ years and made a big differance in the cars preformance. I should make it clear that the Pertronix was installed only after problems with the advance springs, coil, and plug wires were corrected.
The most amazing thing to me about my TF was that it ran at all when purchased given all the electricial and carbarator problems I found.
As a post note I hope the mechanic has addressed another problem quite common on these cars ...that of wires shorting to the tach drive.
David Sheward

I don't what to say anymore. I am confused, to put it mildly. Two different workshops have had a try.
I had to take to the nearest one to check out the distributor, whether it was symmetric, asymmetric or high lift. To be able to get the right Pertronix for it. The car run nicely to the shop. On the way back a had to make a stop, and then I had problems starting it. Before all the trouble started, the car would start immediately every time after the first start in the morning, when I had to use full choke.
I found out the number on the distributor: 40368 A.
I see that it would be sound to first solve the problem, then make the change. But they have had the car for 8 weeks and gone through everything, the fuel system and the ignition part. They have changed the plugs (more than once), they made new wires for the plugs, the have checked the carburetors, the gas tank, changed the fuel pump, I cannot think of a thing they have not tried. I really don't know what to do now.
I have only this car. The summer is passing a way.
:-(
Engine number is: XPAGTDZ27541
Raymond Wardenaer

Not to throw more confusion out here but hard or not starting when warmed up could be a vapor-lock problem.
These cars are somewhat notourious for that.
Hang in there ...it is worth it once you get it all sorted out.
People give these cars a bad rap as being tempermantal ...IMHO (and experance) I think a lot of that is because these cars will actually continue to run with all sorts of things wrong.

Mine was a prime example of this!
Bad spark, advance spings missing & rusted, heat issues, and my carbs...waddamess! One float had a hole in it, one was stuck, wrong jets in both. At one point I did so many "fixes" I'm not reallly sure what actuallly cured it!

Maybe we need to take up a collection and send Mr. Twist to Norway!
Somebody closer to Raymond please help him!
Who is the "MG GURU" in Norway?
David Sheward

David,
thanks for your advice and not least for your moral support! Next Monday I am going to Kristiansand on the south cost for a week, to once more photograph international beach volleyball (finals European Championships this time). Last year I went there in the MG and parked the car beside the courts every day! The car attracted attention, and our largest newspaper interviewed to our players sitting in my car.
Now, I have ordered tickets for the train...
Raymond Wardenaer

Maybe I haven't stressed it, but when I start the car, it bangs in the exhaust pipe. It can be both a carburetor and something in the ignition system?
Raymond Wardenaer

Ray have you checked to see whether there is any play in the distributor shaft bushing. Although I didn't have starting problems I suffered with a slight misfire and popping in the exhaust whilst running. This was caused by excessive play in the distributor bushing, in fact under closer examination you could see that the rotor arm was catching the pickups on the distributor cap.

As I had pertrinox ignition fitted at the time the car still ran almost unaffected, however if I had had points in, the points gap would have varied excessively probably causing bad starting.

As I couldn't get hold of a spare distributor or get mine overhauled in the UK this side of christmas. I fitted a modified distributor from NTG. see link

http://www.mgbits.com/contents/en-uk/p7881.html

its a expensive option but my TD now runs and starts like a dream.

Just a though Chris
C A Pick

Just to add if you go to the bottom of the page on the link you will find an interesting video showing a comparison of the performance of pertrinox v's points v's ignition 123.

Chris

C A Pick

"bangs in the exhaust"....Are we talking about a "back-fire"? Loud, like a gun being fired?
That is a symptom of unburned fuel in the exhaust...
The most obvious cause would be incorrect timing....That is , the ditributor is "retarded" too much, and is firing somewhere in the exhaust stroke instead of the compression stroke of the engine.
This should be pretty simple for any decent mechanic to fix.
At least, that is where I would be looking.
Edward
E.B. Wesson

Edward, yes, like a gun is being fired. Easy to fix? Doesn't seem like it.
Raymond Wardenaer

raymond, i feel your pain. this is very frustrating, but as you know from last summer's driving, these cars are HUGE fun when properly sorted.
i am a little confused as to what is your current problem. it would help me, perhaps the forum, if you would describe what you car is currently doing. if it starts well the first start with choke..no choke required as you make your first drive..that is normal. if, at the conclusion of your first drive, the car sits for ten minutes and will only fire and run with choke and may run roughly for a few moments..that is probably the result of vapor lock and i believe this is also normal with todays fuels.
do you have backfire through the carbs or after fire out the exhaust?
edward is correct, after fire is an unburned fuel charge. the only time i have had consistent after fire was a '35 i had that had a stuck valve. i am not sure if a car with a spark so retarded as to cause after fire would start and run normally. an exhaust valve opening prematurely or stuck open would. a misfiring cylinder would also provide an unburned charge of fuel/air into the hot exhaust stream.

for what it is worth, if this were my car and i had been through what you have been through, i would start over again..as in i would approach this car with a clean slate. it is running now, not as you would like...not as good as it WILL...but it is running.
i would start with your car as follows:

-do a compression check..differential compression check if you have access, but at least a compression check
-if you find no large discrepancy between cylinders set the point gap.
-find TDC on number 1 cylinder and reset the ignition timing and verify correct firing order of the spark plug wires.
-inspect the distributor cap, cam, rotor, advance weights
-remove the chambers and pistons from the carbs and as you listen for proper operation of the fuel pump, measure the correct fuel level at the bridge in the carbs.
-check the needles are seated properly in the pistons and that the jet is correct for the needle and replace the pistons and chambers.
-check piston drop to determine proper centering of the needle in the jet. recenter if needed
-check the valve lash cold. you can use .020" cold, reset to .015" when the engine is hot.
-check coolant and oil levels.
-start the car and sych the carbs.
-with the engine hot reset valve lash
-drive car, have fun

best of luck. do the shops you use have a workshop manual for your car? regards, tom



tom peterson

tom,
thank you for going so deeply into this. I shall print this out and take it to the workshop. As a matter of fact, I will take the car to a new garage tomorrow. The people there are used to old cars, and MG is on their list of what they do.
Best regards,
Raymond
Raymond Wardenaer

When you copy Tom's list add:
Coil, Distributor cap, Rotor, Condensor, & plug wires. (There have been both crap wires and a batch of bad rotor's & caps out there for some time)
Workshop Manual is a must. I am wondering if your mechanics till now have been too "new school"?
(I took the TF to an oil place once just because I "won" a free oil & filter change "for any car or truck"...it was entertaining to say the least...they didn't have a clue ...could not figure out why the car had "two" starters on it. LOL.. should have seen the look on his face when I removed the oil filter for him and handed him the element inside.)
Give your mechanic this website...there are a lot of people on here that can help. Lord knows I could have never got my car sorted without the help and advise from this site!
David Sheward

David,
thank you again. They have mad e new plug wires, they have tried another coil, they have tried a new rotor, they have tried several condensors and they have been servicing and repairing old British sports cars for 40 years.
Raymond Wardenaer

Back to the distributor, the cam type can be found by measuring with a caliper. Bob Gruneau gave the dimensions in his article that was published in the Trilliam. I think I have it somewhere but it will take time to find it.
Cheers,
Bob
Bob Jeffers

I visited another mechanic today, another specialist with old cars. He leaned more towards fuel pump and system. On the way out I stopped to fill petrol, and could hardly get the car started afterwards. A lot of pistol shots from the exhaust pipe. The car was warm, but I still had to use the choke. The mechanic thought the fuel pump worked with no rhythm. The fuel pump is new, but he also stated that that does not mean it is good.
Raymond Wardenaer

Raymond, has your fuel tank ever been cleaned out and coated inside? The fact that you had serious problems after filling the tank leads me to believe there is much sediment in the tank caused by rust or dirty fuel in the past. I would drain all the fuel from the tank, check the filter in the bottom of the tank and the filter in the lower part of the fuel pump.
If there is much rust sediment in the fuel you drain, you might have found the problem.
Jim Merz

Jim, they took some tests of the gas at the workshop, but they have not drained it completely. Thank you, another track!
Raymond Wardenaer

My dear detective friends,
the mechanic I visited today, a former toboggan olympian by the way, also put me on to the fuel track. He also told me of two strange problems he had had with an old car. When he once used the car for a wedding using wedding cars tonbridge, the car suddenly stopped. He remembered that just before the trip, he had changed the lid for the petrol tank with another one that was painted. Fortunately, he had brought his original one. He put that back on, and car ran with no further problems. In the second case the spark went through the rotor causing trouble.
Let us just image that what Jim Merz suggested, is the case. Would that cause the trouble I have described? The afterburn in the exhaust pipe? Problems when starting the car? Good running most of the time when it has started to run? Uneven rhythm of the fuel pump?
Some time ago we tested the petrol that came of the pump, it looked absolutely clean, but that may have changed.
Or maybe we still have two faults at the same time...
Raymond Wardenaer

This thread was discussed between 28/07/2011 and 02/08/2011

MG TD TF 1500 index

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