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MG parts spares and accessories are available for MG T Series (TA, MG TB, MG TC, MG TD, MG TF), Magnette, MGA, Twin cam, MGB, MGBGT, MGC, MGC GT, MG Midget, Sprite and other MG models from British car spares company LBCarCo.

MG TD TF 1500 - Straight 50 in an XPAG ?

Finding oil with ZDDP is becoming more and more difficult. My regular soure over in Malone NY, now no longer carries Valvoline Racing in 20-50 but does strangely, carry it in straight 50 weight.

What are the downsides to using straight 50, other that viscosity problems in cold weather?

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.
Gordon A Clark

Nothing...if it works in hot weather it will work in cold weather...it's not like the engine clearances are that tight.
Gene Gillam

http://www.penngrade1.com/
Rob Edwards

Gordon

I recently was sent some info on "Castrol Edge" with syntec 5w/50. It states that it is formulated especially for older flat tappet engines and replaces the old 20w/50 that many of us have used for years. I also read that it replaces "Castrol Syntec" but many retailers aren't aware of this and will try and sell you Syntec...don't use it.

I have recently switched to Castrol Edge in the TD and so far the positives are that it doesn't leak any more than it did, the engine runs smoother and quieter, oil pressure stays right up. and other than locating suppliers that carry it there seems to be no down side. I thought that someone needed to do a longterm test of this product and it may as well be me. I have put a few hundred miles on the car so far this year. I hope to be able to report back as to my results by the end of the summer.

Until then Safety Fast!

Brian
Brian Smith (1950 TD3376)

I got mine recently from Auto Zone on line.


Mort (50 TD "Mobius")

Brian,

I went to Castrol Canada's web-site and there was no mention of Edge being formulated especially for older, flat tappet engine.

Furthermore, apparently, there are two 'flavours'- TFST and SPT.

I'll call them on Monday.

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.
Gordon A Clark

No prob Gord. I normally run the 40 in mine. Dan
Dan Craig

The Castrol Edge 5W/50 is actually marked on the bottle, specially formulated for flat tappet engines and from the information sheet it was quite specific. I'll see if I can find the email I received and send a copy.

Brian
Brian Smith (1950 TD3376)

I might be paranoid Mort but I'd delete your address from that picture if you can.

In the old days you might wind up with a dozen pizzas you didn't order, but in these times anything and everything goes.


As for the oil, I was running Castrol "Classic" 20-50w. Supposedly for flat tappet cams. Had a couple of tappets go south so now I'm using the Valvoline. Any good? Who knows...I'll tell you in about another 10000 miles.

One other thing..All NAPA motor oils are Valvoline repackaging. I haven't seen any NAPA brand yet with what we are after but maybe in the future? Should be less $.
LaVerne

i've got a box full of junk tappets from my overhaul. the only thing they ran on was the old oil with the more elevated ZDDP levels. regards, tom
tom peterson

Striaght 40 or 50 weight oil isn't too smart.

The best article on oil I can recall was published by the Vintage MG Club of Chicago, as I recall. Their technical session is password protected. Anyone from ChiTown have a shortcut to that article? I'll dig through our archives to see.

It points out that a significant fraction of engine wear occurs when the engine is started. Heavy oils can take much longer to pressure up the lubrication system, thus leading to aggravated wear.

Here's my personal experience we live with right now... wifey's wonderful 50 TD has a borrowed engine which was a fresh rebuild from a very well known repair shop. As long as I can recall, it always had what sounded like one loud "tappet" after starting, that quieted down after about half a minute, but that didn't make a lick off sense as these are not hydraulic lifters. After reading the beforementioned article, it dawned on me that it is most likely a rod bearing waiting for oil pressure. Switched from 15W-40 diesel oil down to 10W-40, still adding Rislone w/ ZDDP, but still clatters, maybe not as long though.

I always give it a minute to warmup and circulate oil- wife usually starts the engine and dumps the clutch, racing off, clattering down the road.

I'm awaiting a roller lifter CAM and a Moldex billet crank to rebuild the correct XPAG engine, hopefully before this one wipes out.

Here's one great article refreshed from the archives:
http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html
Jim Northrup

And the debate rages on. Oil always seems to arouse the passions of the masses. Tappet wear in MGs - don't think I ever took one apart that didn't have objectionable wear. Piss poor design especially on the XPAGs and XPEGS. Makes Len's roller particularly appealing in those applications.
Jim; Likely not a rod clattering on the missus TD - wouldn't take long for an issue like that to progress into a more serious situation on her normal drive cycle. Would more likely suspect a chain tensioner taking a bit to do its job. Seen em rattle for period of time on more than one of the old powerplants. Use your stethescope on the front cover at start-up to rule it out. 2 cents worth...Dan
Dan Craig

Jim,

The counter argument to this is that a heavier single-viscosity oil will cling to a surface longer than a thin or multi-viscosity oil. The heavier oil therefor makes for a more protective start.

I've heard it both ways. Who's right?

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.

Gordon A Clark

"Tappet wear ....Piss poor design especially on the XPAGs and XPEGS."

I have the papers related to the development of ZDDP, from 1955-57. The issue was not understood at all until then - it was black art voodoo of the highest order. Discovery of high ZDDP for tappets was a total accident, an oil compounding error.

The troubles were across the industry world wide, and the engineers argued as hard as any bunch of internet experts, and they knew more about the problem.

People ought to be more understanding of their elders - they had some pretty smart engineers/mechanics/designers worldwide working on the problem. And they do today as well. The trouble comes when you start mixing up systems that worked with ones that didn't, or different systems that work with each other, or start changing parts/conditions in ways that are not understood by the person doing the changes. The fact that this is true does not necessarily mean that anybody understands any given set of conditions.

Jim's thoughts om oil viscosity are exactly correct. When I was a trucker, the rule was that one cold start was equal to 1000 road miles; by the time I quit 12 years later (1990), it was thought to be maybe 1:10,000. Heavier oil than needed to maintain necessary pressure is a lose-lose-lose. More pressure than needed adds a couple more "loses" to that. The major contribution of high ZDDP is at cam/tappet break-in. Some may be useful later on. Multi-vis oils act like thin oil at low temps and thick oil at high temps; take advantage. Sacrificing low temp fluidity for excessive pressure and hypothetical ZDDP benefits is brain dead and engine killing. ZDDP is available as an additive if you want (we have a local compounder here - Les Frickshun - really!). I have not decided re post run-in, and I do not think a general rule for all engines is possible, especially given Chinee parts. Cam/tappet failure is most influenced at the post design and material selection level by valve spring pressures and engine speed, with high pressures at low speed by far the worst. Boy Racers putting 8000rpm springs in a 5500rpm engine, and then driving at 2000 is death, and while your engine doesn't deserve it, you probably do.

PS: If people cannot find ZDDP at reasonable price, I will go talk to the man about getting it in quantity for me pals)

FRM
FR Millmore

Mort,
What is the -$24 savings applied ??????
STEVE WINCZE

I use VR-1 as it's easily available, but Brad Penn and Joe Gibbs oils are formulated for flat tappet engines with plenty of Zink. Joe Gibbs oil is 15/50 where VR-1 and Brad Penn can be had in 20/50 if desired. We have to remember, most oils designed for racing are not high detergent oils, reason being, their frequently changed and not in the engine long enough to get dirty. I personally think that too much emphases is placed on how much Zink is in the oil. Unless you have a bad new cam and or tappets, a flat tappet engine properly maintained, that has been broke in properly will survive just about anything. ZDDP helps through the break in period, after that in my opinion, a high concentration of the stuff is not needed. Of course, it won't hurt to use oils with higher concentrations of ZDDP all the time, but I wouldn't loose any sleep over it if none was available. JMHO

Another story; Greyhound bus company reprocesses their oils to help cut costs, they don't throw any of their oils away. In doing this, they found out that used oil reprocessed sticks better to metal parts due to atom/molecule breakdown, or something like that,(I'm not a chemist), forming a closer knit oil. Remember reprocessed, (Non detergent), Capitol Motor Oil, $1.25 a gallon, sold in Pep Boys in a 2 gallon can? My dad used it all the time and I don't remember any of his engines going bad. Just thought I'd throw that in for laughs. PJ
P Jennings

Steve,
There was a sale going on at the time. I don't remember if it was for just the VR1 or all their oils. It's good to catch a sale and keep it until you need it.
Mort
Mort (50 TD "Mobius")

I'm gonna stir the pot of this oil thread a little. Here is part I&II of a three part series of a newsletter I receive from Blackstone Labs. They bought 33 cans of antique oil on eBay and cracked them open to see what oil looked like decades ago. Is it the same or different from what we use today?

I thought it was interesting reading.

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/Newsletters/Gas-Diesel/April-1-2012.php

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/Newsletters/Gas-Diesel/June-1-2012.php

Frank

Frank Cronin

Here's another good read:
http://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/tech/oil/index.html
Rob Edwards

Good ones guys.
Frank's first one has a good bit at the end that ought to wake up the guys without air filters, or with rock strainers!

A couple of errors in the description of cam/tappet geometry in Corvette piece.

The Corvette one would seem to indicate that oils above 10W30 are exempt from the requirements that lead to reduce ZDDP/Phosphorus, but since the Corvettes are not supposed to be using heavier oils, we do not get any more on those.

No near stock T engine will have cam pressures at the levels requiring the high ZDDP, unless the lifters are crap, and I really do not know what to do about that.

I would still be using 10W40 if it didn't just run out, or if the bearings are too clapped out to maintain pressure.

The Rotella and Delo still look decent. But years ago I ran the oil I used in my big truck, Kendall 15W40 diesel, in my Austin America, and the gearbox sheared the molecules so much that pressure dropped about 10 psi after a couple hundred miles, but remained stable after that. That gearbox was an extreme test though,so it probably does not apply. (the VI improvers that make it stay "40" at high temps are long chain polymers that are sheared by gear teeth and ball/roller bearings more rapidly than by normal engine parts). This was also apparently why the wide multis were discontinued after a short time years ago, ie 10W50.

FRM
FR Millmore

... some recent updates. As a result of exchanges of e-mails with their UK and US offices, here is a definitive statement, that I trust will be of significance to all of us:-

" ... Castrol SyntecC 20W-50 classic car formulation HAS BEE REPLACED by Castrol with Syntec Power Technology 5W-50 viscosity grade. The 5W-50 grade has also been specially formulated for classic car use and has adopted the 20W-50 claims - designed for use in classic cars. The 5W-50 formulation contains more zinc additives than the 20W-50, and will also enhance start up ability in cold temperatures as well as enable better fuel economy."

Hope this helps.

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.

Gordon A Clark

Thanks Gord!

FRM
FR Millmore

During the course of this discussion it was mentioned that the stresses of startup are the equivalent of accumulating many road miles on the engine. Especially when starting a cold engine, there is a readily available way to reduce some of this engine wear. Many of us crank the starter with the ignition off to build oil pressure as seen on the gauge (perhaps one or two pulls of the starter). I find this also facilitates engine start, as when I do turn on the ignition and next engage the starter, the engine practically explodes into life.

Larry
Larry Shoer

I have no connection with Castrol but thought I would include pictures of the container. Like everything else you have to make up your own mind about the product but so far I am pleased with it in my 1950 MG TD, quieter at startup, smoother and quieter running, same oil pressure that I had previously and no "additional" oil leaks. Attached is picture #1


Brian Smith (1950 TD3376)

here is the back side picture #2


Brian Smith (1950 TD3376)

The Classic Car Club of America (CCCA), Indiana branch, has specially produced a 15W-40 oil with proper amounts of ZDDP. I have started using it. It's reasonabaly priced.
MW Davis

Thanks MWD for your onteresting counsel about the CCCA, but I doubt that their oil will be easily available in Canada, where there are an awfull bloody lot of British cars!

It will be interesting to see if the Castrol SPT 'flavour' will become easily available - I doubt it, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt for now.

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.
Gordon A Clark

Gord

As an aside to the Castrol Edge product, I have found that it is available at Walmart of all places. Brian
Brian Smith (1950 TD3376)

There is a little ambiguous information on the Castrol Edge label which shows a SPI rating of N.
The amount of zinc was reduced in oils after SPI Rating G, and by L and M had been reduced even further - in order to meet new criteria to avoid damaging catalytic converters. SO any oil meeting SPI M, now N ratings has to have the reduced zinc compund..
The Edge label says "increased" zinc levels, but does not note how much, and from what to what parts per million. Good luck finding out. Not trying to be a cynic, but this sounds like typical marketing, as the max amount of zinc is mandated and is under what is required for a N rating.
The zinc compounds in the oil also help after break-in, as they contribute to sliding contact lubrication, such as on the lobes of the cam against the bottom of the lifters. The wear problems were first noticed after the reduction of the zinc compounds with rapid wear of cam shafts, on new low mileage engines. This was very prevalent on small Chevy V8 engines for awhile, until they pinned the problem down.

FWIW
Dallas Congleton

Larry
Two things: cranking does not spray oil around on the cam, as running does. So, at least for the cam/tappets, this may make wear worse rather than less.
And for cars that sit, rust and corrosion from oil contamination have major consequences for cam/tappet failure. This has been extensively documented by FAA in many fatal and near fatal engine failures due to tappet corrosion. Notable especially on Lycoming engines. They have the same situation of engines sitting for months or years between runs.

FRM
FR Millmore

with the cranking exercise prior to start..if you don't cut off the fuel, is there any cylinder wall washing? regards, tom
tom peterson

Yes, and on carbed cars, if the carbs do not leak all the fuel out overnight, you still have it even if you DO cut the pump. And while very rich mixture might be good for cold start, it is still possible to foul plugs, at least to the point that if the car does start, it may miss on some cylinders for a while, which adds to the fuel washing and oil dilution.

FRM
FR Millmore

"The Classic Car Club of America (CCCA), Indiana branch, has specially produced a 15W-40 oil with proper amounts of ZDDP. I have started using it. It's reasonabaly priced. "

It's called Classic Car Motor Oil and can be bought on their web site at http://www.classiccarmotoroil.com/

I've been using it in several cars for about three years now with good results. It isn't cheap, but still about the same as a high quality synthetic.
Steve S

10,000 regular check up reqreuis the ff:1. change oil2. change oil filter3. change sparkplugs4. change fuel filter5. clean or replace air filter6. check coolant level7. check brake fluid level8. check transmission fluid level9. check and tighten belts10. check, clean and adjust brakes and clutch11. check brake pad and lining wear12. check performance of air a/c (freon level)13. check tires pressureHope i gave you an idea of the things you need to do.
James Neel

A tune-up requires: Air fietlr, park plugs, flush out antifreeze, fuel fietlr, distributor cap rotors(for some cars), lead wires and as you know engine oil and fietlr.Hope this is helpful.
James Neel

The Classic Car Club of America (CCCA)oil is $59.50 a case. Same price I pay for VR-1 20/50 at my local NAPPA. And, I don't have to pay $15.00 shipping, as with the CCCA oil. PJ
P Jennings

I was just responding to MW's post, and didn't intend to suggest anyone use a particular oil. I currently use VR-1 also, in one of my cars with a blower engine. The biggest difference is that CCCA is a semi-synthetic and VR-1 is not available as such. I shop for oil based on the best product for the particular engine and intended use, rather than by price alone, which is why I use three different engine oils in my cars.
Steve Simmons

Please note I did not originate the two posts under my name. According to the Webmaster some Google process corrupted my account and I had to re-create my settings on this website.

Regards,
Jim Neel
T-877

I'm glad that was not you. I was wounding how to "check performance of air a/c (freon level)" in the T type.
-David
D. Sander

David,

Just wet a finger and hold it up in the wind.

Jim
Jim Neel TD28423

This thread was discussed between 07/07/2012 and 23/07/2012

MG TD TF 1500 index

This thread is from the archive. The Live MG TD TF 1500 BBS is active now.